What devalues a zed?

[44014]

Your right guys. Any day now this flaring your z fad will die out.... It's only a recent thing so it probably won't last long.

I mean it's not like Nissan offered it as a option or anything?

Crazy new school kids with there wide wheels and there low suspension and flared guards.

[Retro Z]

^Exactly what i was thinking. Flares have been around as long as the cars themselves, so they're far from being a fad or new thing. The cars that Star Road (restomod) build are also selling for much more money than original spec cars restored by TK auto in japan.

 

A stock racecar with a 'most-likely' bent chassis, stripped interior, decals and a flogged engine would devalue a Z more than a set of flares and wide wheels...just saying.

 

How come in the Torana slr5000/A9x community nobody complains about flares, yet with Z's its the devils work?

[Zedstar]

So my Z has had a full retro mod done. RB running gear, willwoods, coils, fluro green paint, sparco seats, carbon accessories, aftermarket 17's and my insurance has gone from $31, 000 when stock  up to $52, 000 after modification......

 

Itll now leave a M3 behind, not keep up with a Getz..... In addition it now actually stops, corners, goes better (much, much, much better) with far superior fuel economy and my eyes dont burn from the fumes!! I think if you upgrade your car for the better - the results ($$ will follow). My Z certainly outperforms the original design now in all aspects except for nostalgia....

 

If you are happy with the mods you have made to your Z that is great, same with insurance increase.  In your case it is apparent that no devaluation occurred.

 

My Z is very close to the condition of the one featured in last months Unique Cars. Although motor mag journalists are not necessarily the font of all wisdom the article states the general rule of thumb that the older the 240 is and the and the closer to factory the more it tends to be worth.

 

I think it is very misleading to insist that modifications which change the dynamics of the car even if it perceived they will improve performance/handling/looks will not potentially result in it being devalued.

 

Have purchased 9 Z's (still own 4) plus Soarer ,/180SX and others , therefore have tested the market a few times.

 

 

[d3c0y]

 

There are some important words there, "general rule of thumb". Not absolute hard line instruction... and I agree with that. I think there are a large amount of modified zeds that are personalised to the owner's taste and to me just look plain bad. If you don't know how to modify a car in a way that gives wide spread market appeal and you plan on selling it at some point, this is sage advise. It's not hard to swap in new factory parts on a standard car, it's just time and money and reduces the chance of the classic styling being cocked up. You clearly put no weight on individualism and not looking like all the other zeds out there, which for me personally, is a big factor.

 

Where do you stand on factory option parts, as I asked before? They change the dynamics, are they like putting rust on your car too?

 

 

I hope you don't have an electronic ignition on your car, if you do better switch it out for points because it will be worth less... Are you saying if you have an early car and you up date it to have the diff moved back to the series 2 position you car is worth less than it otherwise would be? Do you have headers and an exhaust bigger than 2"?

 

 

 

The thing that is starting to shit me about this thread, is that no one with a modified zed said they are worth more than a concourse one, just that a well and appropriately modified one can be at the top of the market, just like it is in Japan. It's only people with "standard" zeds that are saying they are superior in value. On top of that there are recent examples of zeds that have sold in Australia for relatively big money (Alex's Fairlady Z, James Flett's 240Z, 260coupe's green car and that red rally car etc) all modified and even two RS30s, yet where is the proof of these stock cars selling for big numbers in Australia?

 

 

Being seasoned car enthusiasts most of us have owned multiple cars and multiple zeds.

[Zedman240®]

Dude if you find a stock l series fast... All power to yah.

I personally would prefer not to be beaten by a spirited Corolla when out enjoying my car.

Excuse the older quote unearthing, but with me, when I did my RB (NA) swap, it wasn't about beating any other car at the red light drags or for any other reason other than for the driving experience itself. It did transform the car completely. I have been in a completely standard zed driven hard and it was fun! Didn't matter if it was 100 hp down compared to anything else on the road, but to enjoy a car as it was back in its day was very enjoyable. As for resale value, everyone wants a blank slate to start off with; when I was looking for a car, the list would grow in my mind of all the things on the car I was looking at to revert back to standard or modify to my taste.

[Bonkers]

Well Mike, they stomped on you pretty hard with the flared guards thing.You're taking Wilbur's car to heart to much. You have to stop that as none of us are ever going to be on a even playing field to beat him.

But this thread is about what devalues a Zed and that is lack of interest.

Let me give you an example.

In 1990 at the first Australian Zed Nationals it was noted that the number of owners under 30 could be counted on one hand . It was also noted in the Zed Clubs that this was also the case with them.It was a worrying statistic that no one had a answer for of how to fix this. The last thing we wanted to see was our cars to end up as a Cube. Or worse never being used again

This was because the following Generation HAD NO INTEREST IN THEM at all.

But that changed , not quickly at first and some ideas for Zeds should stay just that ,an idea  .

The clubs tried to pick up there game and home grown events picked up a following and it went from there. The list of what a Zed owner can do with their car these days is quite extensive.

So everything you have read in this thread,well I see it as being a good thing because it adds interest That makes them desirable to so many different types of people for so many different reasons. Some drive autos as well. Not everyone can use a manual and some need the extra two seats ,at least for a while . If you think having an extra 2 seats makes them less competitive. Well you may be in for a shock at the track one day in that case

Some of you may think ,"he is trying to make everyone happy ". 

Believe me when I say those who know me. Know I don't make many people happy.Its just to hard to do

I am just glad Zeds having the following they have today.     

[zzzzed]

On the bigger faster engine debate. All I can say is I had one each in my shed

Them being the rb25det 240z and the stock l series 260z.

I had just as much fun in the stock zed as I did in the RB zed.

Well on the road any way. It was a diferent story at the track.

The thing is you can't use all that extra power especially with the amount of speed cameras

On the road today. So I found my self putting around in the rb zed and

Because the stock L series car lacks power you can drive it a bit harder without getting in trouble

On the road.

[zzzzed]

And that would be why I sold my road going rb25 zed and bought a track zed.

[d3c0y]

But at the end of the day you have the best of both worlds...

[PeterAllen]

Attitudes and interests change over time. Here is an example:

 

In 1975 group of Z owners, all aged 40, discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons in the city because the waitresses had big breasts and wore mini-skirts.

 

In 1985, at age 50, the owners once again discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because the waitresses were attractive.  The food and service was good and the beer selection was excellent.

 

In 1995, at age 60, the owners again discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because there was plenty of parking, they could dine in peace and quiet with no loud music, and it was good value for money.

 

In 2005, at age 70, and still Z owners, they discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because the restaurant had disabled parking and a toilet for the disabled.

 

This year, now age 80, the friends discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because they had never been there before.

 

[gav240z]

HS30-H A.K.A Fairlady 240ZG on Yahoo! Auctions.

http://page4.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d165322713

 

Starting at 4.5M yen and asking 8.5M yen buy it out price.

 

Current exchange rate at time of writing is ~92K AUD.

 

It has some period mods like Triple Carbs and Exhaust header etc..

 

 

I guess fender flares don't destroy the value of S30z's?

 

Note to self, do want vertical defrost glass.

 

 

[zzzzed]

Are you sure they didn't just put the glass in side ways haha

[gilltech]

So Gav240z, you'll think this a silly question perhaps, but the HS30-H A.K.A Fairlady 240ZG on Yahoo! Auctions with factory? flares you posted the images of, its wheels/tyres look narrow & well within the flares. So the rear arches haven't been cut about. But did the factory ever do that with road cars? Or is it a race car & private-owner-with-wide-wheels thing?

[gav240z]

So Gav240z, you'll think this a silly question perhaps, but the HS30-H A.K.A Fairlady 240ZG on Yahoo! Auctions with factory? flares you posted the images of, its wheels/tyres look narrow & well within the flares. So the rear arches haven't been cut about. But did the factory ever do that with road cars? Or is it a race car & private-owner-with-wide-wheels thing?

 

I can't recall if the factory had the arches trimmed to accommodate larger wheels, I seem to recall discussions about it some time ago and I'm sure Alan would be able to confirm but I actually think it's possible they were cut.

 

I tried to search through threads of archived discussions and found this interesting info on different flares used on 432-Rs vs say the HS30-H (ZG).

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/117331-oem-factory-240zg-overfenders-the-truth/

 

and here from 2002.

http://www.classiczcars.com/topic/2774-240zg-flares/

 

If you put a set of the ZG type Overfenders on an S30-bodied Z, you will find that it does nothing to cure the problem of interference of the original wheel-arch lip with the tyre. What they did in Japan ( and quite brutally on the Works race cars ) was to cut out and re-weld most of the metal underneath the Overfenders - especially at the back. Many people are reluctant to do this, quite naturally!

 

So I'm not 100% sure if they were left to be modified later or were already cut on the HS30-H.

[Zedstar]

You clearly put no weight on individualism and not looking like all the other zeds out there, which for me personally, is a big factor.

 

 

 

You are right I don't in the case of the 240 because of its iconic status in the Z family. Have body kitted other Zeds which as you state is a personal matter. Using your logic Ferrari 250 GTO owners should be not be clones.

 

 

I hope you don't have an electronic ignition on your car, if you do better switch it out for points because it will be worth less... Are you saying if you have an early car and you up date it to have the diff moved back to the series 2 position you car is worth less than it otherwise would be? Do you have headers and an exhaust bigger than 2"?

 

 

Thanks for your concern but I'll take a risk on the work I have done.

 

 

The thing that is starting to shit me about this thread, is that no one with a modified zed said they are worth more than a concourse one, just that a well and appropriately modified one can be at the top of the market, just like it is in Japan. It's only people with "standard" zeds that are saying they are superior in value.

 

No good getting upset just because people disagree with you. " Appropriately modified " is very subjective , after watching many auctions and hanging around workshops in my opinion the closer a classic car is to the condition  it came out of the factory the more valuable it is.

 

 

[HS30-H]

I can't recall if the factory had the arches trimmed to accommodate larger wheels, I seem to recall discussions about it some time ago and I'm sure Alan would be able to confirm but I actually think it's possible they were cut.

 

So I'm not 100% sure if they were left to be modified later or were already cut on the HS30-H.

 

I can confirm that the factory did NOT cut the front or rear arch sheetmetal on the HS30-H model Fairlady 240ZG.

 

The FRP overfenders were simply installed (with pop rivets) on the normal factory sheetmetal.

[nizm0zed]

This year, now age 80, the friends discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because they had never been there before.

 

Gold!!!

 

(so, how was Wetherspoons? or cant you remember?  )

[nizm0zed]

that maroon 240z looks crap.

Thats my taste and opinion anyway.

I have never been a fan of the G nose, the wheels are too narrow and dont fill out the guards, it sits too high, the flares look wrong on it.

Again, my taste and opinion.

 

If i saw it at a car show and was speaking to the owner would i tell them that? nope, i would appreciate that a classic car was loved and well maintained, even more respect if still driven regularly. I would appreciate the points that i would like on it, tasteful engine mods, interior ect.

Has Peter Allen devalued his zed by doing a replica Ferrari body? maybe, but on the other hand its a pretty awesome effort to see the lengths he's gone to to make what he likes. (Id swap both my kids to own the finished prooduct, but nobody wants my kids  )

A good friend of mine keeps telling me i should buy some Wats for my car, keeps sending me pics of 240/260's with wats and for sale add's as he sees them.

I keep telling him it'll never happen because every zed already has them. doesnt mean i dont like the look of them, they look damn good, just too common.

 

I like my car to have individual touches that reflect my taste, hence why i picked a colour i like, not a factory colour, wheels i like, an engine i like, doing the interior the way i want ect.

Will it devalue it? maybe.

To a bloke looking to buy a concours or standard zed, he wont even look at it, but for someone who wants to put a RB in a zed, flares, lowered, street tough look ect, yea, they'd probably be pretty happy with it or consider it a good base to make their own changes from.

I accept that i have limited my resale market, but in the meantime im happy with it.

 

diversity is everywhere and improves everything, from cars to the environment and the people of the world.

If we start saying that only one kind of car is right and the rest are wrong then we may as well kill everyone who isnt blonde haired, blue eyes and start goose stepping with our hands raised in a ridiculous fashion following the rantings of someone with mommy issues and small man syndrome.

 

There we go Gav, only 7 pages before Godwins law was evoked...

[Riceburner]

Regardless of the type of car, modified or not I would be put off if there wasn't a substantial paper trail included. With out receipts or photographs of the work the car has to be worth less. Its much harder to be certain of what work has been carried out and the quality of that work.

 

 

[gav240z]

that maroon 240z looks crap.

Thats my taste and opinion anyway.

I have never been a fan of the G nose, the wheels are too narrow and dont fill out the guards, it sits too high, the flares look wrong on it.

Again, my taste and opinion.

 

Suddenly I like them even more now, in fairness years ago I wasn't a huge fan of the look (around 98 ish when I got my first 240z). I also hated Safari Gold as a colour but that's another story. If you're looking at the skinny wheels and the height it sits and critiquing the car on those merits you're looking at it wrong. It was a homologation special road car, built like that so that Nissan could use wider arches in competition. They had to produce X amount in that trim for it to be eligible.

 

I think the Gnose really polarises people, but for the most part they have never seen it in the flesh to full appreciate what it does for the look of the car. In my opinion it looks great, but you have to see it in person to really get it and frankly most of the copies out there don't do the car justice.

 

I've even warmed to GP Maroon over the years as a colour and don't mind the hubcaps on it.

 

I think a big part of my change in flavour or opinion of these things over the years is learning to appreciate the car for what it is, what Nissan were trying to do and what they achieved. I could care less about how others view my cars in that I don't build them to show off or seek approval of others (not saying this is what others are doing mind you), and don't get my wrong it's nice when others recognise the hard work or approve of your build direction but for me it's not about appeasing others, the way I see it if you want to be different or stand out the best way to do that is go the opposite way of everyone else who is modifying their cars and keep it relatively standard looking .

 

I've even gone to the effort of finding the early Fender Mirrors which won't be to everyone's taste but what I like about them most is the fact that everyone discarded them in the early 70s, what was once uncool I want to make cool again .

 

There we go Gav, only 7 pages before Godwins law was evoked...

 

Just like the sun rising in the morning each day, the longer a forum thread goes the more inevitable it becomes. I agree diversity is a good thing I'm not saying everyone should build their S30z's in the same way and tastefully modified is definitely subjective, but this is why I'm building a car the way I want as opposed to buying an already finished example, it gives you much more control over the build direction but obviously costs a lot more at the same time. So it's financial suicide but that's ok with me.

[gav240z]

I can confirm that the factory did NOT cut the front or rear arch sheetmetal on the HS30-H model Fairlady 240ZG.

 

The FRP overfenders were simply installed (with pop rivets) on the normal factory sheetmetal.

 

Thanks Alan, I couldn't remember. Have you cut your guards to fit the Watanabe's on your car or have you left them alone?

 

Regardless of the type of car, modified or not I would be put off if there wasn't a substantial paper trail included. With out receipts or photographs of the work the car has to be worth less. Its much harder to be certain of what work has been carried out and the quality of that work.

 

+1 documented rebuild is important.

[PZG302]

I think Lurch summed it up a few pages ago, a car is worth what it is when it's sold. Anything else is pure guess work and until you have the cash in your hand you don't really know what the car is worth to you or the market place.

 

At the moment I can think of a tale of two cars from this forum.

 

One a car that underwent "ridiculous" restoration that if looked at from a rational financial point of view would make no sense what so ever, but a beautiful example of craftsmanship and of a 240Z. It was for sale for a fair amount of time with everyone oohing and ahhing over it saying they wish they had the dollars, but no buyers. It could be argued that the price was too high, but it sold, so for the person who bought it, they saw value in it a price that was agreeable to them and to the owner. I have no isea what the price was, nor do I care and good luck to both the seller and buyer, both had a win. One realised what he valued his car at and another bought a car for a value he was happy to pay.

 

The second car, has been for sale for a while also, but is a bit rougher in the looks, not registered, but is highly developed to a set of very tight rules and can be argued punches above its weight in the field it competes in. At the moment it could be argued that it is overvalued by the seller, as no one has bought it yet, however that is not to say the car is overvalued because no one has bought it, it is just that no one has seen the value in that car at the present price point. Next week that someone may turn up and handover a huge wad of cash and take away that car because that is the one they must have and at a price they see as value for money.

 

In both cases, I don't think the sellers need to sell, therefore the value they put on the car will be higher than if that particular asset needs to be disposed of quickly.

 

In a pure asset management point of view all cars over about 5 years old are worthless anyway as they have passed their useful lives and have been depreciated and replaced, so it can be argued that a 240Z is worthless as it is beyond its design life, as are my cars that I have as toys, but would I give them away? No, as I have attached a value to them. Offer me the right sort of money, and pretty much anything is for sale.

[d3c0y]

 

So on the subject of flares, what i draw from this was the factory intention, was to have wide arches that were cut for race cars. They didn't do it for cost reasons, as were most styling decisions on the zed. At the risk of being corrected by HS30-H, I saw a youtube interview with one of the original Japanese designers of the z, saying he wanted headlight covers and full height grill as standard. So there is supporting evidence that this could be the reason for not cutting the guards. Also they would have to fit super wide wheels and tyres from the factory, further cost and all things you would change if you were racing it anyway.

 

 

So from that we can deduce that cutting guards with flares is just finishing the factory's job, if you have a g-nose

 

Using your logic Ferrari 250 GTO owners should be not be clones.

 

They don't have to, as there aren't 1000s of them around (rare enough in their own right) and are also a factory race car, an issue that I have already commented on. I think everyone has already agreed that factory specials, super cars and race cars are not included in this discussion. How about a comparison to other mass produced cars?

[George]

Interesting reading so far. I have nothing to add except to quote this:

 

Attitudes and interests change over time. Here is an example:

 

In 1975 group of Z owners, all aged 40, discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons in the city because the waitresses had big breasts and wore mini-skirts.

 

In 1985, at age 50, the owners once again discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because the waitresses were attractive.  The food and service was good and the beer selection was excellent.

 

In 1995, at age 60, the owners again discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because there was plenty of parking, they could dine in peace and quiet with no loud music, and it was good value for money.

 

In 2005, at age 70, and still Z owners, they discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because the restaurant had disabled parking and a toilet for the disabled.

 

This year, now age 80, the friends discussed where they should meet for lunch. Finally it was agreed that they would meet at Wetherspoons because they had never been there before.

 

[HS30-H]

Thanks Alan, I couldn't remember. Have you cut your guards to fit the Watanabe's on your car or have you left them alone?

 

The rear arches on my GP Maroon ZG were cut when it was still in Japan. I believe they were done in the mid to late Seventies. It also had the rear edge of the ZG lower nose panel cut down for tyre clearance on full lock, which was something you used to see on ZGs with wide tyres in Japan before really low profile tyres started to become more available.

 

The rear arches on my GP White ZG were still uncut and intact when I got it. They've been cut now though...