Rebuild or original ?

[NickF]

I'm following with interest Georges restoration of No 19 and was wondering what distinguishes 19 from 125 or 499.

Is there a perceived value only because its an early car

By the looks of it the restoration is going to be expensive, so is it worth it?

Using off the shelf parts from the USA is ok but they are never quite right (slight differences in trim patterns quality and tolerances in plastics)

So whats the point of spending 30000 to 60000 to restore an early car that will be a well restored early Z but a long way from original

And whats worth more 19 totally rebuilt or 199 or 800 totally original patinated example?

 

Nick

 

 

[gav240z]

That's a good question, I don't have a crystal ball so it's hard to say?

 

Will a RHD 240z be worth more than a LHD 240z simply because there were so few RHD cars made?

 

Does it matter if it has the original engine number? Given that JDM cars didn't have an engine number stamped to their ID plate?

 

Will S30z collectors insist on OEM parts or will close enough replica be good enough?

 

I think what is driving interest in the first S30z's is simply because they were the first of the Nissan Z-car series over 45 years of history and people want to part of what started it all the first of the first.

 

With so few early cars actually surviving and of those so few left alone or original I think it's their sheer scarcity that is driving value more than anything else. How often do you see an early number S30z for sale?

 

In my opinion though restoring for the 'most value' is probably the wrong way to look at it, at least that's how I feel with #150. Rather I'm restoring for usability and enjoyment and taking it in a direction that appeals to me. I am trying to restore original parts where possible and only sourcing new parts if I absolutely have to. Even I have trouble making some decisions for example the rare spares door skin was a bit thicker and heavier than the original, should that alter it's value? Maybe... but I think you have to be pragmatic about it.

 

I'm taking #150 in it's original direction, but it won't stop me from fitting period correct parts that were not necessarily on the car when it was sold new in Australia.

 

With my 72 240z I'm going to be a bit more liberal with the way it's built and modified.

 

I think that time capsule cars will always have a certain appeal and with my 72 240z I quite like using second hand parts as it gives the car more of a preserved than 'restored' feel. Which I kind of liken to wearing an old pair of comfortable jeans or shoes. I never like the feel of brand new shoes. Plus everything has a bit of history to it that way, but that's just my opinion and feel and may not be everybody else's perspective.

 

For me I also like the early cars because that to me is when things were most interesting, with things like the early Rally Cars, the 432 and 432-R models, the HS30-H and then the early racing stuff like LY cylinder heads. Where as at the other end of the scale you have the 280z (North America) and things were getting quiet for the S30z by that stage. 

[George]

 

And whats worth more 19 totally rebuilt or 199 or 800 totally original patinated example?

 

 

Good question Nick. My choice would always be for an original, well kept example.

 

I started searching for one of those and as much as I wanted an early chassis, I was adamant I wasn't in the game of collecting, speculating or investing in cars so the numbers, although important, were not going to dictate my decision. I passed on #86 & #63 because I firmly believed that originality in a drivable condition is more important than a number. I also wanted a car that I could use immediately (I started searching in Jul 2013) and not one I would have to rebuild over 7 years... until #19 was dangled in front of me like a mouldy carrot and I took a bite.

 

What can you do huh?

[sydney mike]

Nick, your question can only be answered for yourself by yourself. Whats more important to you? The "as new" restoration or "original patinated example"? #19, #125 or #499-it's your call. You shoudn't need this forum to tell you.

 

I've copped flak for saying this before, but I'll say it again, L-series powered S30's were a mass-produced vehicle and are a long time away from being "rare". We're not talking about Ferrari GTO's or even 432's here.

 

Whether or not George's restoration is perceived as expensive depends on the individual and their disposable income. Is it worth it? Ask George. Better still, just ask yourself and there is your answer. I have seen the phrase "it's only money" bandied around this forum many times  .

 

Guys spending money and effort fixing old cars has been known as a money pit for generations and reason most of us do it is for the right reasons which is for the love of it. You might make a profit if/when you sell it but don't count on it. You want an investment, try real estate.

 

Just because you've spent $60k restoring it, doesn't necessarily mean someone will pay you even that much to buy it from you.

 

Personally, seeing people bring rusty old cars(especially S30's) back from the brink brings me joy.

 

Myself, I have a late '76 260z so it's far from being an "early girl" and I LOVE it. Do I care about it's value increasing? No.

 

So Nick, figure it out for yourself.

 

cheers, Mike.

 

 

 

[PB260Z]

Very well said Mike especially the follow text

Guys spending money and effort fixing old cars has been known as a money pit for generations and reason most of us do it is for the right reasons which is for the love of it. You might make a profit if/when you sell it but don't count on it. You want an investment, try real estate.

 

Just because you've spent $60k restoring it, doesn't necessarily mean someone will pay you even that much to buy it from you.

 

I recently purchased a restored pre war car that the previous owner spent 10 years and countless $$ restoring.

For the price I paid you would hardly cover just the mechanical restoration costs.

 

The guy who restored the car, did it because he had always wanted one, then drove it occasionaly for the next 20 years.

 

Why did he sell it, because he is now in his 80's and doesn't use it anymore.

 

My point (the same as Mikes) - people do this because they have a passion for a particular car with scant regard for the "investment" potential.

 

Cheers

 

PB

[PeterAllen]

...We're not talking about Ferrari GTO's ... here....

 

Pity.

 

Just a reminder for Sydney folks to keep the morning of the 12th April free!

[Ledge]

If you are concerned about cost and resale value before

you even start a restoration you are best buying a

new hyundai and watching football

[NickF]

Mike  If I knew the answer I wouldn't ask the question

What I would like to know is 19 worth more than 420 if they were in the same condition and if so is 999 worth less and 13 worth more?

So at what point do numbers  become meaningless?

George would you be undertaking a restoration of this magnitude on 7000?

 

Nick

 

[gav240z]

Well Nick if you owned HS30 0004 would you consider it more valuable than HS30 00019? OR HS30 000150? Personally if I owned HS30 0004 I would consider it an important and valuable car to be cherished and kept in original condition with as many original components as possible and therefore I would also consider it more valuable than #19 or #150.

 

Apart from #4 car #19 is the earliest Z we know about in this country. Nzeder owned #16 years ago in NZ and I think another member on here also owned it, but we don't know where it is now.

 

Where do numbers stop making a big difference? For me it's when the changes to the car started like the rear vents in the hatch, that often signifies an early s30z. But that's just my opinion, to be perfectly honest I think any 240z or 260z is a special car so it's only a big deal if those details matter to you.

[NickF]

Good answer Gav

They are nice cars no matter what No

I am full of admiration for what some people are prepared to undertake.

There seems to be a large amount of early cars in Australia!

 

Nick

[Ledge]

Gav from memory #16 is a dedicated track car now.  Cage

and RB. Was at the PI nationals a few years back

[260DET]

The other point about all this is the cost of buying a new car and then watching it depreciate in value over the next few years. So whatever the reason for buying, a new car ls one of the quickest ways to lose money around. And let's face it, most people don't really need a new car for practical reasons no matter what they say.

 

I was going to say more but reckon that the above gives some perspective to the points the OP has mentioned so no more is needed.

[jeff43]

At one point about 5 years ago I had 4 Zeds in the shed - 240Z No 134, a 72 240Z, a 73 240Z and a 74 260Z 2 seater. At that time my second daughter had just been born and time and money were both tight. I decided I needed to rationalise my Zed fleet from 4 to 1 and share them around as I would never be able to save them all. All of the cars had there good and bad points but for me the decision was very easy, No 134 was the keeper. I think as others have said, there is something about knowing these cars were where it all began. My car is from what I have been told by a PO to be one of the first to be sold in South Australia, apparently to "Les March" a Datsun dealer of the time as his own personal car. The car spent a lot of it's life in the Barossa area where I currently live. It is this sort of history that attracts me to the car and makes me feel I have a very special 240Z, one definitely worth saving.

[sydney mike]

Hi Nick,

 

the point I was trying to make is that different people have different priorities when it comes to determining whats important to them in regards to the value of a Zed. So whats important to you?

 

You shouldn't try and rationalize what an enthusiast does, be it a car guy or for example a watch enthusiast. Would you spend $25,000 on a watch?

Leave the rationalizing to the wives & girlfriends!

 

With any old car that has a following, low numbers have always desirable. Why? My guess is because it's like a race, like coming first. Maybe a sense of historic significance, or exclusivity.

 

When do they become meaningless? My guess is when the lost the series 1 hatch vents.

 

Would George, Tom/Dick/Harry be undertaking a restoration of this magnitude on 7000?

 

Yes, when #1 to #6999 all have either rusted away,crashed, converted to RB,V8,13B's or Ferrari GTO's  ;D.

 

cheers, Mike.

 

 

 

 

Mike  If I knew the answer I wouldn't ask the question

What I would like to know is 19 worth more than 420 if they were in the same condition and if so is 999 worth less and 13 worth more?

So at what point do numbers  become meaningless?

George would you be undertaking a restoration of this magnitude on 7000?

 

Nick

[PZG302]

For mine the numbers don't matter, I own the 129th VH Valiant XL Charger built, but it is still worth what anyone is prepared to pay. For a Charger I'm lucky that people will pay more for one than a VH 4 sedan, but will still fall way short of what the checque book restoration will cost me.

 

I also have a NA6 MX5 that was in the first shipment to Australia, number 321, whilst I get comments on how nice the car is for one the earliest still around, I don't really care that much about it in terms of originality as there were a metric shit load of them bought.

 

I look at it that the whatever car you own is yours to do with what you want. If I was in the position to own a Ferrari 250GTO, I would be racing it every track I could in Europe at all the big Historic meetings and thrashing the life out of it, prepared for it to be a steaming pile of bits if things go wrong and wait for the haters to hate for what they think should be a museum piece to be revered.

 

My old Zed was just a run of the mill production car, that because of the ravages of time became reasonably desirable, but it was modified for racing with rear quarters tubbed to fit bigger wheels in, a cage welded in, the windows replaced, panels lightened, the interior stripped and over many seasons of racing ended up with battle scars and eventually a written off shell I sold on to someone else who though it could be rebuilt. Whilst I had an emotional attachment to that car for the joy it bought me and a few others over many years of racing, in the end it was just a piece of metal that did a job and when it had finished that job was discarded and I moved onto the next car.

 

For anyone to take on a major restoration the end value wouldn't be the goal. For my Charger it was to build the car to a standard that I always wanted, and until recently couldn't afford. For some reason I have always liked Valiants and Chargers in particular, so when I could afford it I got one and set about turning it into the car I wanted, basically an E49 small tank on steroids, cranky and loud enough that the neighbours will hate me even more.....

[peter t]

Pity.

 

Just a reminder for Sydney folks to keep the morning of the 12th April free!

Bringing it on a run to Brissie to run it in Peter?

[PeterAllen]

It's a donor not a crate so it's already run in.

 

Brissie, The Hunter, Great Ocean Road, Tassie, Barossa, etc, etc, they're all on the list. It will be a pleasure to meet all the folks who have assisted me with this project.

 

[chartoo]

I think #19 isnt of much more value at the moment in Australia but in 20 years if you still have #19 ........and it was the earliest Z in Australia say....$$$

[gilltech]

I think #19 isnt of much more value at the moment in Australia but in 20 years if you still have #19 ........and it was the earliest Z in Australia say....$$$

Maybe. But IMHO it would have to be as sold new in Australia, not altered or modified in any way, before a serious collector would look twice. And as much paperwork as possible to back it up.

[bluerat]

Basically it comes down to the buyer, If you were looking at two identical Zed's to buy, one was 1019 and one was 19 how much more would you pay for the plate?

 

Georges car will be a good investment in the future. Most of the early cars, under no.50, are race cars, far from original condition and you know with Paul doing the body rebuild, no.19 will be a top car.