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Classic Car Values - Restomod vs Originality


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Speaking of values.... it seems most on this forum are more interested in restoration to stock specification, but I note that some cars come out that are nicely restored to a modified state... like some tasteful mods of a late drivetrain, brake upgrades, suspension and some interior tech. Assuming this is done in a tasteful way, are these cars worth more/less/same as a original specification car of similar retoration quality. I realise this question has lots of variables depending on what drivetrain is fitted..... An RB30 engine is a lot cheaper than an M3 engine for instance. I note there is a nicely restored car on this forum with M3 drivetrain. If the same car had stock drivetrain, would it be worth more or less?

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15 minutes ago, vosadrian said:

Speaking of values.... it seems most on this forum are more interested in restoration to stock specification, but I note that some cars come out that are nicely restored to a modified state... like some tasteful mods of a late drivetrain, brake upgrades, suspension and some interior tech. Assuming this is done in a tasteful way, are these cars worth more/less/same as a original specification car of similar retoration quality. I realise this question has lots of variables depending on what drivetrain is fitted..... An RB30 engine is a lot cheaper than an M3 engine for instance. I note there is a nicely restored car on this forum with M3 drivetrain. If the same car had stock drivetrain, would it be worth more or less?

You could probably ask this question about any old car, restomods proliferate nowadays but the value will likely be determined by how many other people share the "tasteful" intentions of the modifier. Whereas, original is universal, that's how they were and you can't argue with that.

IMHO restomods hold no historic value, whereas original (or modified in a period style) is representative of the era of the car.

So, no hard and fast rules as far as I can tell, it's all up the market 

Jeff

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11 minutes ago, vosadrian said:

are these cars worth more/less/same as a original specification car of similar retoration quality

The price of a car (well anything) is a function of supply and demand. Stock/OEM restorations are less common and probably appeal more to the "investor" whilst resto-mods are more common and attract the enthusiast-driver. The investors have deeper pockets which combined with the low supply of OEM spec cars results in a price premium.  

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12 minutes ago, vosadrian said:

Speaking of values.... it seems most on this forum are more interested in restoration to stock specification, but I note that some cars come out that are nicely restored to a modified state... like some tasteful mods of a late drivetrain, brake upgrades, suspension and some interior tech. Assuming this is done in a tasteful way, are these cars worth more/less/same as a original specification car of similar retoration quality. I realise this question has lots of variables depending on what drivetrain is fitted..... An RB30 engine is a lot cheaper than an M3 engine for instance. I note there is a nicely restored car on this forum with M3 drivetrain. If the same car had stock drivetrain, would it be worth more or less?

That’s a great question. From what I can see, I think that one is in the eye of the beholder mate. 
 

My personal opinion is original looking exterior and interior with a bit of modern tidy up, and an original modified drivetrain that will give some modern mid range sports cars a run for their money. An RB swap is fine if that works for the individual, but there is something beautiful for me about an original z engine with period correct mods and sound. As time goes by I think the rewards for staying original will become clearer. Could you imagine a db5 or an e-type with an engine swap to a modern engine??…you would get serious hate mail.

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Everyone sees things differently. For me, having an original spec matching numbers car is something that really only the owner can appreciate and others who like that sort of thing who have been made aware that is the case. Its not like you see it drivng down the street and know what it is. At a show and shine with an engine bay visible it would be more noticable. I can understand that people who are inclined to appreciate that would pay a lot for it.

I am a bit the other way. I actually like the style of the S30, but like it most when modified a retro JDM way with some nice wheels and a low stance etc. If I can have that look with some modern reliabiliity and performance (and sound), even better. It is still rare because you can only achieve it with an S30 shell and the effort that goes into getting everything working well is often considerable more in time and $$ with mods. To me, it seems engines and gearboxes for S30s are not that valuable, and you could probably get a L series engine and gearbox for cheaper than most of the upgrade options. But that is me. I was just wondering what people here's perception of the general market currently. Would the example I mention above with the M3 drivetrain sell for more or less because of the drivetrain in current market? Or is it so close that it could swing either way depending on the active buyer at that moment, so we call it a draw. 

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1 minute ago, vosadrian said:

Everyone sees things differently. For me, having an original spec matching numbers car is something that really only the owner can appreciate and others who like that sort of thing who have been made aware that is the case. Its not like you see it drivng down the street and know what it is. At a show and shine with an engine bay visible it would be more noticable. I can understand that people who are inclined to appreciate that would pay a lot for it.

I am a bit the other way. I actually like the style of the S30, but like it most when modified a retro JDM way with some nice wheels and a low stance etc. If I can have that look with some modern reliabiliity and performance (and sound), even better. It is still rare because you can only achieve it with an S30 shell and the effort that goes into getting everything working well is often considerable more in time and $$ with mods. To me, it seems engines and gearboxes for S30s are not that valuable, and you could probably get a L series engine and gearbox for cheaper than most of the upgrade options. But that is me. I was just wondering what people here's perception of the general market currently. Would the example I mention above with the M3 drivetrain sell for more or less because of the drivetrain in current market? Or is it so close that it could swing either way depending on the active buyer at that moment, so we call it a draw. 

There haven't been any sales of zeds with M3 motors so it's a guessing game what it's "worth".

Originality is proven to be worth the most to high end buyers.

Oem/jdm style is growing in popularity and value because younger buyers are increasingly well resourced.

Anything else is anyone's guess.

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Oh... I should mention that I totally get the L series engine sound thing. For me, I would never consider a V8 S30, or a rotor, 4 cylinder. For me, I am not a long term S30 follower, but I consider the howling straight 6 the essence of the car. And I think the natural modern equivalent is a Nissan straight 6 RB series. Fitted with ITBs for that throaty carby sound, but amping up the power and sound levels with some extended RPM range. To me, I think you could have a car that sounded right for the era of the car, but sounded even better with 8-9000RPM redline, but had some power improvement due to twin cam heads etc. and had reliability associated with EFI. 

So I am saying that I consider tasteful mods as mods that maintain the sound and feel of the original car. But again, that is subjective, and some may love a LS powered S30!

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5 minutes ago, cracker said:

There haven't been any sales of zeds with M3 motors so it's a guessing game what it's "worth".

Originality is proven to be worth the most to high end buyers.

Oem/jdm style is growing in popularity and value because younger buyers are increasingly well resourced.

Anything else is anyone's guess.

So it sounds like the value probably swings in favor of originality, but it may be getting pretty close as younger buyers enter the market. 

My car is a 260 2+2... so the least desirable S30. So it probably swings in favour or resto-mod being of higher value since most after originality would be looking for a 2 seater.

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7 minutes ago, vosadrian said:

Everyone sees things differently. For me, having an original spec matching numbers car is something that really only the owner can appreciate and others who like that sort of thing who have been made aware that is the case. Its not like you see it drivng down the street and know what it is. At a show and shine with an engine bay visible it would be more noticable. I can understand that people who are inclined to appreciate that would pay a lot for it.

I am a bit the other way. I actually like the style of the S30, but like it most when modified a retro JDM way with some nice wheels and a low stance etc. If I can have that look with some modern reliabiliity and performance (and sound), even better. It is still rare because you can only achieve it with an S30 shell and the effort that goes into getting everything working well is often considerable more in time and $$ with mods. To me, it seems engines and gearboxes for S30s are not that valuable, and you could probably get a L series engine and gearbox for cheaper than most of the upgrade options. But that is me. I was just wondering what people here's perception of the general market currently. Would the example I mention above with the M3 drivetrain sell for more or less because of the drivetrain in current market? Or is it so close that it could swing either way depending on the active buyer at that moment, so we call it a draw. 

I think it could go either way depending on what the bloke with the fistful of cash at the other end of the carsales ad is looking for. 
 

I reckon with the electric car revolution just around the corner the choice will soon be between original engine and electric conversion. I personally wouldn’t do an RB or M3 swap at the present as they will be considered an old fashioned mod when we start seeing some classics converted over to electric and seeing them burn off actual M3’s at the lights.

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1 minute ago, Wags said:

I think it could go either way depending on what the bloke with the fistful of cash at the other end of the carsales ad is looking for. 
 

I reckon with the electric car revolution just around the corner the choice will soon be between original engine and electric conversion. I personally wouldn’t do an RB or M3 swap at the present as they will be considered an old fashioned mod when we start seeing some classics converted over to electric and seeing them burn off actual M3’s at the lights.

You could well be right!

I have a different opinion (I am an electrical engineer who is quite anti recreational electric cars). I see a few classics with electric conversions and think it is the worst of both worlds. I am a bit of a Porsche man also, and some of the electric 911 electric conversions are sacrilige!! I can see an argument that original engine may be more valuable than modern upgrade, but I think that people will have an appreciation for the most overtly ICE sounding cars regardless of the origin of the car/engine. In time, most cars on the road will be silent engined. The cars that make any noise will stand out. The ones that make the most classical ICE sounds will stand out the most. In the case of the Z, it has a great sounding engine out of the box. But some other classic cars sound pretty ordinary. Either way, give me a classic (or any) car with an engine that sounds like a pre-hybrid era F1 engine sound!! It is nice for the sound to match the character of the original car of course... but if you can get that character and amp it up I think that will stand out in a era where most cars make no noise. 

And electric conversions will never change the fact that a later engine will sound similar and be faster than original even if not as fast as electric. 

Eventually of course, younger generations will have no idea what engine sound matches what car type... probably just loud and cool will be enough!

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5 minutes ago, vosadrian said:

You could well be right!

I have a different opinion (I am an electrical engineer who is quite anti recreational electric cars). I see a few classics with electric conversions and think it is the worst of both worlds. I am a bit of a Porsche man also, and some of the electric 911 electric conversions are sacrilige!! I can see an argument that original engine may be more valuable than modern upgrade, but I think that people will have an appreciation for the most overtly ICE sounding cars regardless of the origin of the car/engine. In time, most cars on the road will be silent engined. The cars that make any noise will stand out. The ones that make the most classical ICE sounds will stand out the most. In the case of the Z, it has a great sounding engine out of the box. But some other classic cars sound pretty ordinary. Either way, give me a classic (or any) car with an engine that sounds like a pre-hybrid era F1 engine sound!! It is nice for the sound to match the character of the original car of course... but if you can get that character and amp it up I think that will stand out in a era where most cars make no noise. 

And electric conversions will never change the fact that a later engine will sound similar and be faster than original even if not as fast as electric. 

Eventually of course, younger generations will have no idea what engine sound matches what car type... probably just loud and cool will be enough!

That is a very persuasive argument and I think I would have to agree on the whole.

 

Oh god I can see it now…with ICE in an electric era we are going to look like the old guy that refuses to adopt new and better tech aren’t we?! Is this what getting old feels like?!?

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I prefer to think of it differently.... we will be like the bikey gang... with those loud obnoxious vehicles. The cool rebels!! But will be more embarrassed when it breaks down the EV with a flat battery? But that is probably just my wishful thinking!

I do think EVs have a place in transport of the future. I think a lot of hurdles need to be cleared first... like how to actually make the electricity much cleaner than ICE... and Australia is far from good in this regard. But if we sort it all out and the price is right, I would be happy to use an EV for daily commuting etc. Just not for a recreational weekend fun car. But I am the wrong demographic. I own several nice ICE cars that are far from econoboxs. I typically buy a car based on how much fun I can have in it rather than how practical it is. 

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35 minutes ago, vosadrian said:

I prefer to think of it differently.... we will be like the bikey gang... with those loud obnoxious vehicles. The cool rebels!!

Is loud and obnoxious necessarily "cool"? Drag cars are loud, are they cool? You can spend a six-figure amount on a Porsche Macan, various Audi RS models or even an R8, they're all loud but again, are they cool?

While I'm with you on the EV for transport idea, I think for the recreational vehicle the 'right' sound is appropriate. Very occasionally, a Mk1 Lotus Cortina travels down our street. It's not loud, but geez it mights the right, gurgly Weber noises. Always brings a smile. Early air-cooled 911s aren't loud but they make the right mechanical, whirring fan noises and again, bring a smile. 

This (while being loud, after all, it's a race car) makes ALL the right noises:

GT-R at Fuji

This kind of gets back to the original vs. restomod question, which as we know, is open to personal taste, but my vote for the right noises to come out of a Zed involve a modded L-series, an efficient exhaust and triple Solexes or Webers up front.

Good discussion by the way!

Jeff

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I am totally with you @datsunrally. My quote was of the less car liking public who might think a Harley Davidson is loud and obnoxious, and an ICE driver might be conisdered part of a simialr crowd in 15 years when ICEs are rare. Of course a general public person not into cars would probably lump all loud vehicles that are loud in the same category regardless of whether they are nice or not so nice sounding.

I think we have similar tastes. I like a wide variety of engine sounds... From Subaru 4s to Porsche NA 6s to flat plane V8s. Not a real fan of old school V8s myself. And I do prefer the sound to match to the car type... but most public have no idea what is matching?

That GT-R sounds awesome and certainly suits the Z... Would love that sound.... but is the cheapest and most reliable way to get close to go RB ITB? I know an L series could be made to sound similar and have similar power.... but as someone with experience in EFI and electronic ignition, that is a must for me... and converting an L series to EFI and ITB will be a bigger effort than RB, and while RB30/25 hybrid with some ITBs is not going to break any power records, but should comfortably out power and rev reliably than an L for less $$$. 

 

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2 hours ago, vosadrian said:

So it sounds like the value probably swings in favor of originality, but it may be getting pretty close as younger buyers enter the market. 

My car is a 260 2+2... so the least desirable S30. So it probably swings in favour or resto-mod being of higher value since most after originality would be looking for a 2 seater.

I disagree completely. Sales evidence suggests that originality will always trump resto-mod regardless of make or model.

But I also don't think that this should rule your decision making when deciding on a direction for your build. As all before you have done, you should do with your car whatever you like...

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I think this is why I have 4 240z's to be honest. I like originality, but I also like period correct modifications and some improvements to make the cars a bit more fun.

The older I get, the more I appreciate them the way they are or were made. I do like an RB swap (26) in concept, but I feel the chassis isn't really up to the task and to me it's a bit of a mismatch when you consider the Rb26 was AWD in a GTR.

I feel like 250hp in a Z is plenty of fun and can be achieved via the L-series engine. Engine swaps always date the car to an era and the RB motors are old hat now.

The only engine swap in an S30Z that really appeals to me is the S20 motor, but they are now worth an absolute fortune and out of reach. I almost think I'd be better off doing a tribute 432-R with an O.S Giken Twin Cam head on an L-block W/Triple 50mm Solex on it. Price would probably come in, under what an S20 build would cost these days and has nearly equal allure (specialness about it)

The other build that appeals to me is an L28 with HKS surge tank and turbo charged for that 80s era Wangan racer vibe, but fuel injected (and aesthetic wise, using throttle bodies that give the blow thru carb turbo look).

But if I was to do a swap I'd try to ensure everything could be reversed later should I wish to revert to standard.

Finding good original cars is really getting difficult and as time goes by the OEM parts are actually becoming increasingly expensive. AM radios, early ash trays, antennas, hub caps, steel wheels, early style valve covers etc.. all drug money now.

I really do think if you're looking long term original is the way to go. But that doesn't mean you can't make the car fun also. For example I love Triple carbs on these cars and find SUs a bit pedestrian.

But swapping between them isn't a big deal. On my 71 which runs an auto box, I'll keep the SUs and I'm thinking I'll keep the original points distributor but swap the points for a pickup style ignition (like Pertronix) and keep the vacuum advance set up.

Where as on my 72 with Triples I haven't got vacuum advance, run an electronic dizzy and will probably add in a CDI box at some point, that car will also get things like LSD, 4.1 ratio rear end, MK63 calipers, Watanabe wheels (or MSpeed Work Rally Mag Replicas) and has Ikeda Bussan Seats, Rally Clock and Datsun Compe wheel. All period correct mods and updates and I find that car a lot more fun and lively to drive, but also less civil, fumey and noisy.

Each car has its own personality and character, but that's what's fun about them.

Regarding the value of old L engines, I think you'll be surprised in future, I'm seeing less and less available these days and already in Japan I'm seeing pretty high prices for basic blocks. What used to be $200 long motors is now $5k-$6k engines. I think that will eventually ripple through here and in other markets. Nissan used the L-engine for years and in many cars which is good, but try find them now. Only a handful for sale at any given time (if lucky).

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6 hours ago, cracker said:

I disagree completely. Sales evidence suggests that originality will always trump resto-mod regardless of make or model.

The problem is not so much in the modifying, but the tasteful way to modify. I think the right modification can actually enhance the value of a classic car, but you need to be deep in that community to really know what is desirable / appreciated.

That's why so many TV shows that do Resto mods often make a dog's breakfast of it, they haven't spent enough time with hardcore enthusiasts to really understand what mods are desired and fully appreciated.

And I'm afraid, many people (not all) who modify cars tend to have questionable taste more often than not. And I'll say my taste is probably not everyone's taste, but that's the problem we all think we know what's cool, and not everyone agrees. I personally think the 240ZG is a great look on these cars, but many (Philistines I call em') don't like the look.

So yeah, original is a safe bet and for those who dare, modified can command good money, so long as you don't stray too far from the overall theme and what makes the original car desirable.

Example of modifications, which may enhance desirability of the car.

https://jdmlegends.com/products/1973-datsun-240z

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Some great discussion here. It seems the concensus is:

  • Original is always of higher value
  • Mild reversable mods to customise a car to your taste but can be reverted would not devalue a car and would give you more enjoyment of the car
  • Resto-mod is probably more about the tastefulness of the mods and finding a buyer with similar tastes, but on average is lower value. In the right circumstances it may be equivalent value.

As suggested above.... my son and I are not doing this for car value reasons. I was just curious what the market place was like now. We have a 2+2 that is partially restored in the direction of restomod. It makes sense for us to continue that way and it what we want anyway. It seems 2+2s are more plentiful and lower value with OK ones sub $50k. We probably plan to spend close to that to complete our restomod. We don't plan to sell it. 

My personal opinion is it is about the look/feel/sound to me. I prefer the look of a Z with a lower stance than standard and wheels to better fill the guards (with flares). I like the sound of the L series engine or a similar throaty inline 6 that suits the style of the car. I like the feel of some well sorted suspension and nice LSD with a drivetrain with a nice manual gearshift and enough very responsive power to keep up with a modern family sport wagon (0-100kph in 6-7 seconds). That is what I like. I've been spoiled with many powerful cars, and I just get dissappointed when I drive a sporty feeling car what does not feel to me like I am accelerating "briskly". My other cars do 0-100 in sub 4 seconds (ET in the 11s) and have great handling. I don't need our Z to do that. But I want it to keep up with a Commodore V6!! I realise for many the acceleration of a car like this is not the point, but I just find it frustrating driving a fast looking car that is slow. As much as I like a windy road, a significant proportion of my driving is on straighter roads with accelerations from rest to 80-100. I enjoy the shove in the back and rowing the gears with some nice sound. 

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Good summary vosadrian, I think youve got it pretty right!

Original restoration vs. tastefull restomod? I can see value in both and it comes down to the market and what the buyer wants.

I love the classic modified JDM look and wanted to keep that, so from the outside and even the interior you wouldn't know that my car is so extensively modified until you open the bonnet. I did want to stay with the heritage of a N/A inline six but wanted a more modern and capable feel to the driving experience.

I did hedge my bets both ways so everything I've done is bolt in and easily reversible and I've got the original parts, including matching numbers engine and gearbox and everything needed to revet back to standard.....if a buyer wanted to do so.

What its worth doesnt really bother me and I wouldnt change a thing if I had my time over again.

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IMG_2570.thumb.JPG.ebb5c820f5e82d7213d2093e62a557d3.JPG

Edited by KatoKid
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@KatoKid.... I love your car. I refer to it in earlier posts above. Very much in a similar vein to what I am seeking. I am also a big fan of BMW 6s... and particularly the E36/46 M series engines. I would consider going that way myself, but finding the right bits to do it may be more difficult than an RB based equivalent.... and there is some niggling thing in my son and I that thinks the right thing to do is keep it in the Nissan/Datsun family. Also, I have a background in engine management and have worked on many Nissan engines. They are so easy to mix and match both OEM bits and aftermarket options, so you can get pretty creative and unique. The BMW would be more difficult without the stock ECU and associated sensors and throttles etc. But I think I would be more than happy to have a stock setup like you have working perfectly!

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Hi guys, I've split these posts into a new topic to keep the for sale thread, a for sale thread. Otherwise feel free to continue.

FWIW, I found the RB26 feels very similar to the L-series motor in terms of being a straight 6 and the overall sound/feel. So I think it's a good swap option. I personally think an RB25NEO (w/26 covers let's be honest 25 covers look crap), and a high flow OP6 turbo and Nistune ECU would be really a really economical option that would easily make 350-400hp and in a Z would be plenty fast.

If there is 1 thing I think is required in a an S30Z these days it's aircon and most 240z's didn't come equipped with that originally (some home market cars had it) but many are later dealer options, but I want to drive my classic and be comfortable too. With the way our summers are these days I think although aircon adds to the clutter of an engine bay it's worth having.

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13 hours ago, gav240z said:

The problem is not so much in the modifying, but the tasteful way to modify. I think the right modification can actually enhance the value of a classic car, but you need to be deep in that community to really know what is desirable / appreciated.

That's why so many TV shows that do Resto mods often make a dog's breakfast of it, they haven't spent enough time with hardcore enthusiasts to really understand what mods are desired and fully appreciated.

And I'm afraid, many people (not all) who modify cars tend to have questionable taste more often than not. And I'll say my taste is probably not everyone's taste, but that's the problem we all think we know what's cool, and not everyone agrees. I personally think the 240ZG is a great look on these cars, but many (Philistines I call em') don't like the look.

So yeah, original is a safe bet and for those who dare, modified can command good money, so long as you don't stray too far from the overall theme and what makes the original car desirable.

Example of modifications, which may enhance desirability of the car.

https://jdmlegends.com/products/1973-datsun-240z

Spot on Gav.

As you say, the murky waters of what is tasteful... all a matter of subjectivity and one can never know who or how many people will actually like what you like. Originality is reasonably well documented and easy to prove, and nobody's opinion can change it.

Hang around long enough and get to know the market and it's not hard to build a close to oem spec, period modified car that would go off at auction (if that is indeed your desired outcome).

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On 4/27/2022 at 11:33 PM, gav240z said:

 

 

Where as on my 72 with Triples I haven't got vacuum advance, run an electronic dizzy and will probably add in a CDI box at some point, that car will also get things like LSD, 4.1 ratio rear end, MK63 calipers, Watanabe wheels (or MSpeed Work Rally Mag Replicas) and has Ikeda Bussan Seats, Rally Clock and Datsun Compe wheel. All period correct mods and updates and I find that car a lot more fun and lively to drive, but also less civil, fumey and noisy.

 

 

This is the ultimate set up for smiles per miles, just needs an option box;D

 

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On 4/28/2022 at 9:32 AM, vosadrian said:

I like the sound of the L series engine or a similar throaty inline 6 that suits the style of the car. I like the feel of some well sorted suspension and nice LSD with a drivetrain with a nice manual gearshift and enough very responsive power to keep up with a modern family sport wagon (0-100kph in 6-7 seconds). That is what I like. I've been spoiled with many powerful cars, and I just get dissappointed when I drive a sporty feeling car what does not feel to me like I am accelerating "briskly". My other cars do 0-100 in sub 4 seconds (ET in the 11s) and have great handling.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CWpNHpTl4-0/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

This is a new recast L6 head that will apparently flow really well and address some of the original head design flaws, in terms of combustion chamber shape, coolant gallery flow and port design.

Price is about $6-7k I believe but you'd spend that + more on porting and prepping an old head anyway.

I believe it's run an 11 second 1/4 mile on its first outing.

 

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