Sirpent "Z"

[Sirpent]

CANBUS systems are great, arn't they?

 

Yep

 

Nothing like trying to connect a mobile phone cradle in a modern car and then finding out that each time the phone engages either the cruise control activates (Nice idea actually) or the air bags go off LMAO

[luvemfast]

Dude that sux  :'(

 

Oh well, Hollinger sequential time.

In fact, I think they even have a semi auto one that uses a compressor to change gears and an electronic flappy paddle.....

Sticks to the Aussie-German blended theme.

just sayin

[NZeder]

Quafie have some good gearboxes too

[Sirpent]

Dude that sux  :'(

 

Oh well, Hollinger sequential time.

In fact, I think they even have a semi auto one that uses a compressor to change gears and an electronic flappy paddle.....

Sticks to the Aussie-German blended theme.

just sayin

 

Quafie have some good gearboxes too

 

Simon, Mike

 

Somehow I think that a Hollinger or Quaife would be worth more than the entire car in the end, I'd like to finish it with the funding stream I forecast before 2025 LOL

 

Think I will be speaking to Kato about the Getrag 420G ( I believe its a 420G) box he is running behind his Bavarian for the simple fact that #1 It fits, #2 he has done some spectacular work as far as mounting it, sorting out the gear shift etc, and #3 The 420G box he is running is good for the torque rating of the C32 as its rated just shy of 500Nm and reasonably priced in the market place.

 

Remember either way I'm going to have to get a lot of engineering done just to get it to marry to the motor.

[NZeder]

The 420G is a good box and I am sure much cheaper than the others by a long shot. + should be a few around from wrecked DE cars

[Sirpent]

The 420G is a good box and I am sure much cheaper than the others by a long shot. + should be a few around from wrecked DE cars

 

I agree Mike, from everything I have been able to read about the box its the way to go, just need to compare the belhousing on one to the back of the C32 then see what can be done as far as either having an adaptor plate made or a whole HOG bellhousing.

 

Also spoke to David one of the main men at MoTeC today and he has confirmed that their unit will drive the motor so thats re-assuring news but as I said, never enough research and I guess there are still unseen's that lay ahead.

 

Cheers

 

John

[KatoKid]

John, John, John.....were do I start!

 

First off, I'm not the type to laugh at someone Else's misfortune...seriously that is a bummer. The more modern euro cars are nearly at a point where their interdependency on chassis inputs makes them just about impossible to transplant especially autos. Late 90's BMW's are about the last from Bavaria that can easily be swapped, most after this go to fly by wire and CANBUS with lots of chassis inputs. There is a great thread around from a guy who is an electrical engineer who tried to swap a E46 M3 and SMG into an early E30, he got it going but pretty well admitted defeat after a long time trying to make it work properly....as the DSC inputs were missing and the accelerometer couldn't be retrofitted.... this guy is a gun electrical engineer. You can buy a mechanical throttle conversion kit for these engines but from all reports they are still a poor compromise. Such is technology.

 

While I agree on your strategy of aftermarket ECU and manual conversion you need to decide on a budget and then be prepared to spend a lot more.  Buying a Motec, installing and dynoing to get a reasonable tune will be serious bucks.

 

Gearboxes......I'm not using the 420G, decided to go with the ZF 5 speed from the earlier E36 M3 as they are smaller, lighter, and much nicer shifting and as a bonus they are exactly the right length to line up with the stock trans crossmember position, not that fabricating a new crossmember mount in the tunnel was an issue but its just one less thing for the engineers to pick on! Plus my car will be 450 kg lighter than the M3 so it wont stress the box as much. The 420G comes with other problems as well....while they are tough as they are pretty baulky to use and you cant buy parts for them from BMW, if they have synchro problems (which they do) you need to have a contact that can buy parts from Getrag in Germany. And there is more.... the bell housings are not interchangeable, the gearboxes are shimmed to suit each bell housing at the factory and require special tools to be made or bought to work on them...just too hard and they aren't cheap either, bank on at least $2000 as a start point if you can find one.

 

Not being familiar with the Benz product I would be looking for commonality (if there is any) of families of Benz engines to see if there is a manual gearbox that will bolt up to your engine, wouldn't worry too much about torque rating for the box as the lighter weight will ease the stress and then you need to sort flywheel, clutch etc.

 

None of this is impossible but certainly challenging. I know you have the desire and ability and I certainly don't want to put you off but think lots of research will be required to come up with a realistic solution.

 

 

[benny]

would probably be better sticking a T56 behind it (as parts are plentiful) and adapt the bellhousing!!

 

 

[Sirpent]

David

 

That's what i love about this forum, the exchange of idea's and information.

 

On the Motec side of things first, the cost isn't a concern and I feel pretty confident that it is a workable solution, when I weighed up all of the costs involved with the Benz electronics it wont be that hard a kick in the backside for what I want to achieve.

 

Commonality of Benz motors / Transmissions, sit back and let me tell you a story, the M112 engine which mine is was the first and only V6 ever produced by Benz, and has NO commonality with any Benz motors prior to it, apparently everyone was trying to figure why they built it, reason, because when you add 2 more cylinders to it as they did you end up with whats called an M113.

 

This is the ONLY motor it has any commonality with and there is no manual box available for them (Read HP AMG power figures) period.

 

So the only option is to source a box that would be able to do the job, the 420G has the same internals as the Getrag Supra box which was my first thought, then the 420G and last but not least and maybe still an option the Holden V8 Getrag 290 which I have seen for just over $2300 NEW, I presumed yours was the 420G, now I can refocus and look at the ZF as a possibility.

 

Also, I should be able to claw back some bucks with the Speedshift AMG box, so on balance investing in a manual replacement wont hit me that hard fingers crossed.

 

And you are correct, its like looking a 3 mixed jigsaw puzzles all sitting in the same carton at the moment, and MUCH research is still needed, however, I'm set on doing this so don't fret, I like my avatar too much now to back out of the project LOL

 

May give you a call at some stage David just to say Hi and chew the fat over this unfolding drama if you don't mind.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

would probably be better sticking a T56 behind it (as parts are plentiful) and adapt the bellhousing!!

 

Anythings a posibility Ben

[benny]

im sure youve seen this thread that suggests that the m112 has the same bellhousing as the chrysler crossfire and SLK320??

 

see here for the thread-

 

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w202-c36-amg-c43-amg/1557093-c43-manual-transmission-conversion.html

 

see here for the box-

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05-06-07-CROSSFIRE-MANUAL-TRANSMISSION-Excellent-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aChryslerQ7cModelQ3aCrossfireQQhashZitem3a679a7375QQitemZ250846278517QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_500wt_1182

[Sirpent]

 

Commonality of Benz motors / Transmissions, sit back and let me tell you a story, the M112 engine which mine is was the first and only V6 ever produced by Benz, and has NO commonality with any Benz motors prior to it, apparently everyone was trying to figure why they built it, reason, because when you add 2 more cylinders to it as they did you end up with whats called an M113.

 

This is the ONLY motor it has any commonality with and there is no manual box available for them (Read HP AMG power figures) period.

 

 

Hey Ben

 

Appreciate that you went out of your way to help, but I have to explain, read my quote above first.

 

The M112 base motor in the C320, SLK320 and Crossfire are all standard fuel injected motors only straight off the Benz production line.

 

AMG built the C32 and SLK32 Supercharged versions, yes you can get a box as you found to fit a base M112 as per the above, but, not a C32 or SLK32 supercharged version due to the torque, that trans just wouldn't handle 450 Nm that's why they only ever came out as auto's

 

Good try Buddy but no cigar unfortunately. 

[benny]

hmm i see...

 

I read when i was browsing that MB didn't make a manual AMG because they had trouble holding them together due to power/torque!!

[KatoKid]

Benny's sugestion of a T56 or a TKO form Mal Wood http://www.malwoodauto.com.au/index.htm are a good option, still need to find someone who can do an adapter plate...my brother knows someone so will check with him. Flywheel will be tough, options would be to buy a blank for another application and have it machined for you crank, PCD and offsets or else a complete custom...or go a TH400 or 700 auto if ur that way inclined. Not my preference but....

[mossy]

I think Dellow might do adaptor plates

 

http://www.dellowconversions.com.au/

[benny]

Benny's sugestion of a T56 or a TKO form Mal Wood http://www.malwoodauto.com.au/index.htm are a good option, still need to find someone who can do an adapter plate...my brother knows someone so will check with him. Flywheel will be tough, options would be to buy a blank for another application and have it machined for you crank, PCD and offsets or else a complete custom...or go a TH400 or 700 auto if ur that way inclined. Not my preference but....

 

may be able to use a flywheel from the crossfire??

[NZeder]

or the auto flexiplate and then a button flywheel setup aka tilton/quartermaster etc.

 

Re the bellhousing - can always do a cut and weld. The T56 or TKO are good options with a number of ratios available and with the Oz $$ so strong a good price too there are others that Nascar guys use too that compete with the T56 and TKO, can't recall the name but again good radios and pricing.

 

Go for a helical gear not straight gears, they are not only quieter but also due the teeth/angle of the helical cut they make the surface area on the gear larger = stronger.

[Sirpent]

I think Dellow might do adaptor plates

 

http://www.dellowconversions.com.au/

 

Thanks Mossy,

 

Any suggestions and all avenues will be investigated.

 

may be able to use a flywheel from the crossfire??

 

Benny

 

I get the feeling you really want this to happen buddy, good thinking and yes today while I sat looking at the car getting ready to pull my finger out the same or similar thought came to mind, I believe that the base non supercharged M112 found in the C320 / SLK320 and Crossfire all use the same crank as the C32 AMG version, this being the case then maybe just maybe a manual flywheel may do the job, will have to do some research in that area.

 

or the auto flexiplate and then a button flywheel setup aka tilton/quartermaster etc.

 

Re the bellhousing - can always do a cut and weld. The T56 or TKO are good options with a number of ratios available and with the Oz $$ so strong a good price too there are others that Nascar guys use too that compete with the T56 and TKO, can't recall the name but again good radios and pricing.

 

Go for a helical gear not straight gears, they are not only quieter but also due the teeth/angle of the helical cut they make the surface area on the gear larger = stronger.

 

Mike,

 

Not sure about a cut and shut, but maybe for the purposes of mocking one up to see if everything works and then having one CNC'd from a billet yes I agree.

 

I wouldn't go straight cut, although the sound coupled with a supercharger and modified exhaust would make for an interesting beast LOL

 

I checked the ratios of the Getrag 290 out of the V8 Commodore against the AMG 5 speed

 

                            1     2           3     4           5

AMG Speed Shift 3.59   2.19    1.41   1.00 0.83

Getrag 290         3.49   2.16    1.40   1.00  0.78

 

Once again, have to see exactly what torque figures this box can take, but its compact and there would be a load of aftermarket hardware and gear for it which makes it an attractive prospect.

 

Reading the Commodore forums, everyone swears by them.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

[benny]

fingers crossed they run the same crank!! such a shame they didn't do a manual for the SRT-6 as it would of been sufficient!!

[benny]

Hey Sirpent,

 

 

A guy in the US has just grafted in the lights you wanted-

 

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/101082-a-forcesbeyondcontrol-78-280z-v8/

 

 

Ben

[Sirpent]

Hey Benny

 

Yeah saw this before and dont really like the exicution, by blanking out the entire rear and then sitting them on top it looks very bland, I was thinking of building mine into the original garnishes so as when they are bolted in the rear retains that lip line like the original Zed does.

 

But hats off to him for trying it nevertheless, just not how I might/will do it.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[NZeder]

Nice find Benny, this does show you how the size of these lights look on the S30 even if not mounted/installed in the method you are thinking of.

 

Anyway I have attached a smaller picture of the setup (I have asked permission to do this and if he denies this I will remove this attachment)

[Sirpent]

Hey Thanks Mike

 

I think you can see what I mean now about the loss of the lip effect and how they seem to get lost in the process, however the overall fit looks good and Im pretty sure that by retaining the hosuings and then using a contrating clolos to the body work for the entire rear garnish they will look pretty contemporary with the rear looks of the car.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Sirpent]

AT LAST

 

It's official, motor should be here at Melbourne Docks on Friday 17th of August !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

To celebrate I went out and purchased a diff today, I decided after much thought surfing and consolation, (Thanks Peter Mc and Peter Allan) that I will be installing an M86 LSD diff used in the BF XR6 Turbo's and picked up this 30,00K diff, ratio is 3.46:1

 

So this weekend I have some reason to get to work on designing and mocking up a new cradle assy which will support the diff and firm up the rear suspension, I chose this over the commodore equivalent due to the mounting arrangement.

 

Cheers

 

John

[KatoKid]

Hey, good news John!

 

Diff mounting shouldn't be too hard but the two Peter's have probably mentioned the importance of driveline alignment which is somewhat dictated by your tailshaft or more to the point the type of joints. Did you get the MB tailshaft? Assume it will be rubber guibo at the front and CV at the rear? If yes you will need to juggle crank centreline and pinion nose so they are aligned as the rubber guibo wont tolerate even a small amount of deflection. I think most T56 are rubber guibo at the output?

[Sirpent]

David,

 

All correct, and I realise that, so will have to look at the alignment strategies that a Falcon or Commodore use and then decide what goes between the box and diff, at this stage I just want to mock up a prelim cradle to see overall fit then fine tune a final version once the motor and box are available for trial fitting, all in all I think the package should work nicely though.