Isthatastartermotor's rebuild tale of woe and confusion

[Isthatastartermotor?]

As I said on the intro forum, I don't have much of an idea about this rebuild. Truth be told, I can change an oil filter and in theory could grease the bearings on a car but would be bothered by torque ratings which I don't have much of an idea about.

 

As I said in the other thread, the guy I bought it off has ripped out the stereo and left a gaping hole in the dash, which is so dark and cavernous you half expect bats to come flying out of it. The previous owner as it turns out was great with motorbikes, not so good with cars. He installed a brand new and what seems to me to be very expensive aluminium radiator, which gives the engine a zombified look to it - half alive, half dead.

 

The engine itself is fundamentally good I think - no blue smoke or grease in the exhaust, although a compression test should sort out how bad the cylinders are. Starter motor seizes badly. A crack with a spanner made it start the last time, but as at yesterday, no go.  Bearings are rusted so when it drives it feels like it is scraping against something.

 

I made the classic mistake of not doing what I used to do when I was in my twenties and buying old cars: saying to the vendor, "OK, you have my money in your hand, now tell me actually what is wrong with it."

 

I also have my own inhouse critic, who is very sceptical about what is happening with the car. Here are some examples:

 

 

Have been thinking about your car (and trying to do so without actual steam coming from my ears). To be fair everyone Ive told has looked as dumbfounded as I feel (male and female) at the idea of buying a car that doesnt work when you arent either a mechanic, or very rich with cash to throw about. I think you will have to investigate a FREE place to store your car and realisitically you might not be able to spend money on it for a while. The only reason we have any money in the bank is because I sold my apartment, which I reluctantly did so we wouldnt have financial worries, argue about money or have to decrease our lifestyle, not so you could finance rebuilding a sportscar and we could feel the same pressures as before, but without an investment property!!:( Im not sure you thought this through (and its seems more of a whim given how little research you have done on it), let alone how unfair/(completely taking the piss) it might seem from my POV with regards to the financial burden

 

The problem with an unlicensed vehicle in WA is that it can't sit on the road or a verge, and we don't have the room in our front yard. So, I need to get it over the inspection pits as soon as possible.

 

That is going to take some effort...

 

 

There's soooo much rust on the car, needs a fuckload more than a paint job! How on earth will you replace those panels at the bottom!!,!?

 

Some other texts and emails have been similarly encouraging. I have ambitions about putting a wide body kit on it so I was going to leave the spot rust (not quite as much as that quote above would have you think) and just get the kit onto it. But it seems that I'll need to make it rust free ASAP in order to get it licensed.

 

The good thing about WA is that we don't have annual inspections for licensing, so once it is done, it is done.

 

Will post some photos once I work out how to do it for this forum.

 

[PB260Z]

Gidday

 

In my opinion I think you need to do a couple of things before you spend another cent.

 

 

1. Meet up with some experienced Z folk and get a realistic & experienced opinion of what is needed.

2. Work out what it will cost then DOUBLE it.

3. Get the "inhouse critic" on side, having the answers to the above points might help

 

Not trying to rain on your parade but old cars can very easily become a massive money pit  , trust me I know  have just spent over a $1,000 sorting out things on registered car that was driving just fine 

 

Just my 2 cents worth

 

Good Luck

 

PB

[Isthatastartermotor?]

Thanks. All rain welcome. 

 

Its a five year project where I can trickle money at it from time to time. A guy I used to work with years ago who is a mechanic and into classic cars things the entire thing would cost around $50000, especially if I go big on the paint job (he says budget $15000-$25000 on paint, if I want to go extravagant). Over 3-5 years that is do-able.

 

I should add that I paid $1500 for the car.

 

Rough task list on the roll out:

 

a. get the car roadworthy to solve the storage and access issue (year 1).

b. Fix engine flaws (which I'm guessing aren't significant but lets find out) (year 1)

c. Sort out electrics. Some funny things happening with the back lights but I think that won't be too pricey. (year 1)

d. Sort out brakes, suspension, rusted wheel bearings. (year 1)

e. wide body kit and paint (the big job). Air dam, sideskirts, and rear spoiler. I go to the US for work once a year so I can probably pick up a wide body kit there and bring it home. (year 2)

f. sort out interior, after the kit/paint task. Dynamats! (year 2-3)

g. new shock absorbers wheels and tyres (BBS wheels, which I had before on a Honda years ago, and BF Goodrich tyres, so there will be some significant expense on that).(year 3-4)

 

The in-house critic has calmed down in the past week so as long as it isn't in her face we should be ok.

[gav240z]

LOL @ Inhouse critic, but she/he(?) has a point...

 

Anyway I'd forgo the body kit idea for now, even go with the rat look to start with a flat black paint job etc.., have a bit of fun. Once it's nicely painted you'll have to be very careful working on it. So do all the other stuff first and the paint job last.

 

Stick to a budget that won't offend the other half and you should be ok.

 

PS: This widebody 2 seater looks great.

https://oakmandesigns.wordpress.com/2013/11/05/abc-190mm-nissandatsun-280zx/

[gilltech]

You haven't actually said what you've bought?

[Isthatastartermotor?]

@Gav - yep that is a nice car, although the style is a little too new school for me though.

 

@Giltech - Sorry, 1979 ZX Fairlady.

 

Just tried to post a picture but will need to muck about and resize it.

 

Inhouse critic doesn't place much stock in cars: she drives a beat-up Honda Jazz. Anyway she now recognises I'm entitled to a long slow hobby (think my mother-in-law might have helped out), so that's all fine.

 

 

[Agno]

Sounds like the inhouse critic has nailed it from here

[G]

Inhouse critic might be on to something..

 

Many years ago I was given some good advice when it comes to these cars.

 

Basically, it costs as much to restore a 240z as it does a 260z or a ZX.

Aside from the ability to source some second hand bits cheaper for a ZX, it'll cost roughly the same amount to paint, rebuild an engine, replace the diff, sort the suspension etc etc.

 

At the end of the day, a 240 is typically worth more than a 260 (particularly a 2+2) and substantially more than a ZX. I don't mean to offend you or anyone else, this is just the way the pricing is (at the moment).

 

If you are absolutely set on the bodyshape of a ZX, it sounds like you should get rid of it and buy a better car.

From your description, yours sounds pretty far gone. You could get a far superior car for not much more, which will save you thousands in the long run.

There was a nice looking 2+2 ZX getting around for a while on these forums which was a turnkey proposition.

 

If you don't really care about the bodyshape, then reconsider what you're restoring. A $25k paintjob on a ZX is a lot of money.

[phillay]

I would think item 'a' may also include item b, c, d and g.

 

HOpe it works out for you.

 

 

[Isthatastartermotor?]

Compression test results:

 

Cylinder    Dry (PSI)    Wet (PSI)

 

1.                105            180

2.                105            170

3.                100            190

4.                100            190

5.                  95            180

6.                  95            180

 

Piston rings are gone. Bugger.

[gilltech]

Look I'm sorry but let's be brutally honest here. The car is apparently quite rusty at first glance, you can be sure that the actual quantum of rust will be far worse. The engine is worn out, wheel bearings & brakes are stuffed, & so is pretty much everything else including the interior by the sound of it. The 280ZX cars just aren't worth tipping a bucketload of money into, that's the reality. Few people are interested in them except as sources for engines for the collectible 240/260/280 series.

And you're not experienced in car restoration so are going to have to pay other people to do stuff for you, some or all depending on what skills you manage to pick up along the way. Labour rates are not cheap, people have to charge enough to make a living.

The rust is a major. Replacement panels & sections will have to be specially fabricated by hand, or cut out of another body shell, you can't just go out & buy parts. Then all grafted in by a craftsman. And only then can you start panelbeating & prepping the shell for general repairs & a total new paint job. Big costs. In-house critic will become toxic very quickly.....

My advice, get rid of it now for whatever you can get for it & spend all the money you are going to try & save over the next 5 yrs on something that will at least retain most of all that expenditure.

Sorry to be blunt but I've seen too many well-meaning enthusiastic people burned with projects that are just pointless from the get-go. Not fire proof myself either, I'd guess most of us would have hard-luck stories when it comes to old cars - very easy for the heart to rule the head.

[44014]

Especially when your an buy showroom condition ones for 10k..

 

 

Basically, it costs as much to restore a 240z as it does a 260z or a ZX.

Aside from the ability to source some second hand bits cheaper for a ZX, it'll cost roughly the same amount to paint, rebuild an engine, replace the diff, sort the suspension etc etc.

 

At the end of the day, a 240 is typically worth more than a 260 (particularly a 2+2) and substantially more than a ZX. I don't mean to offend you or anyone else, this is just the way the pricing is (at the moment)

The 2 most expensives z's to actually sell lately both above 30k have been 260Z 2 seaters fwiw..

[Isthatastartermotor?]

@gilltech - thanks for the thoughts. I do appreciate the frank talk.

 

Fortunately for me, I've always loved these cars. I can afford to slowly tip money into it. Part of this exercise is picking up some skills as I go. I'm not especially bothered by re-sale value as I'm not planning on fixing it to sell it. So, I'll keep chugging away.

 

Anyway, starter motor is now fixed by a friend who is a mechanic and is happy to help, brakes and bearings are getting done in a week. Vehicle inspection the week after. The same friend found an engine in Melbourne, but someone else grabbed it before I could buy it.

 

 

[gilltech]

280 motors used to be numerous but lots have been used to re-power & up-capacity the 240s & 260s, & most of the once-numerous 280ZX's have long been sent to the scrap yards or smelters. Keep looking, a motor will turn up eventually, lots though have been sitting in wrecks out in the weather & with often very high kms & it's going to be hard to find one as a plug'n'play.

 

So what does a high end 280ZX go for at present - 8K tops? So why would you put 25-30K +++ or even more into one? It won't matter how much money you tip into yours the market value is all it will be worth, & that's if you can find a buyer willing to pay you top dollar should you one day find yourself having to sell it. Sure good ones go well, & owners enjoy them, the reality is that the ZX is just not in the realm of collectible cars, being seen as a soft boulevard cruiser rather than a sports coupe. Most ZX's around are 2+2's - you'd be better starting over, saving up a chunk of money & getting a good 260 2+2 to play with, it will hold it's value far better. And you can get many parts for them, whereas 280ZX stuff is getting hard - let's face it, they are 30-35 yrs old already.

 

[luvemfast]

Sure is a lot of haters.............

Don't bother with a ZX..... Be original like everybody else!  lol

 

[Mr Camouflage]

must.....see.....photos.........

 

[gav240z]

Agree...

[gav240z]

If it really is bad, here is a couple of starting points that might be more worth the effort?

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/keilor/cars-vans-utes/1981-nissan-280zx-datsun-2-2-/1071532747

or 2 seater ZX

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bayswater/cars-vans-utes/1979-nissan-280zx-2-seater-fat-pizza-badwog/1071383365

[Karljsw]

Hey mate,

 

Priority number 1 should either be getting some photos up on this forum or getting one of the guys off the forum who's restored a car like yours to come over and give his opinion on it.

 

If a 280zx is your dream car don't let anything stop you in building it!!

 

If the car is too far gone perhaps as suggested find another shell and switch over the good parts from this one and turn 2 into 1.

 

But as I said we can only speculate as to how bad or not so bad the rust is until we get photographic evidence

 

Karl

[Isthatastartermotor?]

Sure is a lot of haters.............

Don't bother with a ZX..... Be original like everybody else!  lol

 

I kind of noticed that.  :-\

 

I was thinking about it: I assume this is a forum for mechanics rather than enthusiasts.

 

Anyway, I'll stick up some photos next week and then I might switch to lurking rather than interaction.

[luvemfast]

Regardless on the model car, if it's too far gone, you need to reconsider what you want to do.

As far as it being a 280ZX. I cop a bit of flack. But it's in jest as my car is freakin awesome!

There have been more and more ZX's being revived over the years. Have a look through the projects.

[Bonkers]

I would stay with the 280ZX . Even if it requires a parts car.

They are under rated for what they can do as a base unit. You only have to look at the Z car nationals which is the NDN before 2003 to see what they can do . I owned a white hardtop Fairlady for 8 years which was sold to a other member here many years ago and now this year I am told it will make its way to the salt or Clay to have a go at a land speed record.

Go the 280ZX's

[gilltech]

I assume this is a forum for mechanics rather than enthusiasts.

Most on here would be a mix of both. All enthusiasts, while some are car industry professionals & the rest of us typically DIY types.

 

For the record, all, I'm NOT 280ZX-bashing. Rather, I'm looking at the Big Picture - in the OP it was made clear (quite dramatically with personal emails posted) that there is a non-car-enthusiast partner in the background who is rightfully entitled to have some say in the matter of where money goes. And she's far more pragmatic when it comes to spending money on an investment rather than a hobby, especially when her partner doesn't have car restoration skills, as yet, so as to save money by DIY.

A friend had already pointed out that one could well spend 50K restoring any car. True, easily, if one has to pay experts to do all the work. And by the sound of it, that non-runner car just purchased needs the works.....everything. Unfortunately. That's why it was cheap. Hence the Subject line of this thread. The OP is asking for advice.

 

So, there seems little point in antagonizing the better half by drip-feeding thousands of dollars every year for the next however-many years into a car that isn't likely to hold much of that expenditure as market value at the end of it all. Reality check.

If you really like the 280ZX model such that it's the bee's knees & the only car to have, then go for it. But you'd be better off getting an 8K - or whatever you need - loan & buying a really good 280ZX now, if you're patient you'll find one; & just fix (or have fixed for you) any little imperfect bits on it. You'd get to use & have fun with it now, not on the never-never-maybe, & you'll still get to learn as you'll be the one maintaining it & perhaps improving it further. Even paying it off you'd be well ahead as compared to going the long & hard way round. And it's likely that you'll obtain the advantage of any PO's expenditure if the car is already well sorted, as they are a bit soft as new but can be made to go so much better with the good bits on them.

 

Or, my other suggestion is the 260Z 2+2, same layout, & better resale as there is a wider market for it as it's closer to the increasingly popular 240Z heritage.

 

[RB26DETT]

I couldn't agree more about every point that gilltech has made. I have done both in terms of building a 240z from scratch, full rotisserie rebuild and have also bought a ready to enjoy well sorted 260z two seater where the previous owner invested a serious amount of money and had it all built up by Powerplay/Datrally for him.

 

I personally would never build a car from scratch again as the time and money invested is many times the amount of buying a well sorted car in the first place. Each to their own I guess...

[PB260Z]

I was thinking about it: I assume this is a forum for mechanics rather than enthusiasts.

 

Is it not possible to be both ??

 

Most on here would be a mix of both. All enthusiasts, while some are car industry professionals & the rest of us typically DIY types.

 

Agree pretty much everybody on here is an enthusiast and we come from all manner of backgrounds and vocations.

 

The one thing in common is the love of Z's and a desire to see more of them on the road.

 

Cheers

 

PB