S30Z and other Japanese car prices are they on the move?

[PB260Z]

Prices are on the move ??

 

240 for $64,500 on carsales

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Datsun-240Z-1973/SSE-AD-1046287

[George]

Prices are on the move ??

 

240 for $64,500 on carsales

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Datsun-240Z-1973/SSE-AD-1046287

 

'The car has to go Col. I've had enough of that useless piece of metal sitting in the garage. I want to park my Pajero there Col. Put it on the market now!'

'Yes dear.'

The next day Col listed the car for a ridiculous amount to scare of any sane person so that he can keep his useless piece of metal. Six months later it's still on the market and Jannet stills parks her Pajero in the driveway.

[PB260Z]

Yeah, good point.

Many years ago I advertised my MGB for stupid money, can't really remember why now, but I got a phone call the day the Trading Post came out and sold it for the asking price  :).

 

If you don't ask, you don't get 

[mossy]

If I was going to sell my 240 I wouldn't list it for less than 60k 

[gav240z]

So playing devil's advocate here, but what makes an XU-1 Torana worth these asking prices and a 240z not?

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Holden-Torana-1972/SSE-AD-2403079/?Cr=22&sdmvc=1

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Holden-Torana-1971/SSE-AD-2255744/?Cr=24&sdmvc=1

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Holden-Torana-1972/SSE-AD-2273000/?Cr=26&sdmvc=1

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Holden-Torana-1972/SSE-AD-841770/?Cr=33&sdmvc=1

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Holden-Torana-1972/SSE-AD-2403079/?Cr=22&sdmvc=1

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Holden-Torana-1972/SSE-AD-149711/?Cr=23&sdmvc=1

 

Both are 2 door coupe's, both are straight 6 power plants, both made around the same vintage (1970 - 1975 ish). However 1 is a worldwide success and 1 is only really a success in AU / NZ.

 

I know which I car I think is prettier, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I can appreciate that someone would also like the old Torana.

 

But why are the prices so far apart?

 

Discuss!

 

 

 

 

[gav240z]

If I was going to sell my 240 I wouldn't list it for less than 60k 

 

Hopefully not much less than that....

[zzzzed]

We have had a few gtr torranas come through work. Compared to a zed, their build quality is below average. I can not see the value in these cara at all. I could understand prices closer to $20 to 30k but $90.000 that's ridiculous.

[Mr260z]

I agree Gav

 

I reckon the prices of old Holden's and fords are crazy these days.

I'd prefer the car that was always meant to be a sportscar rather than one that was based on a mid size family car.

I'm not being zed biased and love all older cars . I just think the zeds are a hell of alot more value for money.

 

Lets not just compare the xu-1 though.

Anyone seen the asking prices on datto 1600 and 1200 utes these days?

 

I don't really understand what's held the Zed back?

I've owned a lot of cars and can honestly say there's not much I'd rather have in shed than a Zed for under $100k

 

(Though maybe ask me again if I ever have $100k to blow on a toy  )

[fbr]

for that reason I guess, because its a AUS/NS thing. something to call your own.

[George]

So playing devil's advocate here, but what makes an XU-1 Torana worth these asking prices and a 240z not?

 

 

I think you're trying to find reason where it doesn't exist. You can make perfectly sensible points and argue till you're blue but in the end the answer is, 'that's the market'. It does what it does Gav.

[Gordo]

I would guess that the ford and Holden fans and or collectors out way the Datsun guys. It's supply and demand.

Not many XU1s around but plenty of people want them, will drive the price up. If there were less Zeds around they would be more sort after.  Would it be fair to say there could be less 1200 uses around?

[PB260Z]

Supply and demand is certainly a key driver to pricing. Another thing that helps that helps the XU-1, SL/R and GT's is that as kids people usedwatch them race race on weekend 40 years ago. Now those kids have grow up and have cash to spend on childhood dreams.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Mr260z]

At the end of the day you will only ever get what someone is willing to pay for your car and if your asking a high price your obviously not that desperate for the money. I've got a car for sale at the moment that I didn't want to sell but the orders were given so it was listed at a high price. Now I want to sell it so its been dropped by 25%.

 

I think the price of zeds will increase but it will only happen when the Zed owners decide it will.

[Zedman240®]

Gordon and Peter are 100% right... if you could go back and change some history eg replace the car Brock was racing in to a zed, win what he did and you'll see massive prices on zeds. Imagine all those kids watching him race and win, and now they are all grown up with loads of cash and not many zeds around and each cashed up kid wanting the same car, of course prices will soar. Again, supply demand. Whats not working for the zed, is that association when you mention Datsun, first thing anyone thinks of? 120Y. These days, no one wants to pay heaps for a "Datsun".

[Lynton]

Datsun/Nissan owners are their own worst enemy they only talk price down never talk price up, read any Japanese forum for any Japanese car for sale, it's always bandied around that "he" will never get that price it is only worth $...?

 

It's time people talked up investment value in Japanese cars it is an education process that is why gtr xu1, gt falcons & monaro, 2 door falcon coupe, mustangs, the list goes on is why these cars are pulling those dollars. People talk them up!

 

People are buying them like art work for future investment it is up to us to educate and create the Japanese market some people who have Japanese cars are to embarrassed to put them on the market for what the car owes them because the Japanese car community strikes it down, all cars cost similar money for ground up resto ' s and some hugely more, like anything you invest in you need support of the market place values, this starts with you this is also why sometimes it is hard to insure your car for what it is really worth, like an r100, prince gt, nissan silvia csp311, Honda 600/800, datsun 1500/1600/2000 sports, isuzu bellet 1600gt, & 240/260z to name just a few there are many jap classics I have not mentioned that are built like a watch, praise them up for change bring them in to automotive discussion of technical advances for their era not to mention equipment levels ....lynton

[gav240z]

Topic split and created a new thread..

 

Lynton - I definitely agree with that sentiment, people do tend to talk their (Japanese Classics) values down, but when you compare them with other marques around the same era they were light years ahead in so many respects.

 

As you mentioned cost of restoration is the same in many respects, so when I see a 240z with a bare metal restoration like the 1 mentioned on carsales website. I know that if someone was to pay for that kind of restoration then $65k is actually not bad when you consider what it will cost someone to build a car to that level of fit and finish.

 

Although that particular car is not quite how I'd want my Z, there are some subtle customisations that I would have done differently and I would have gone with a more original feel - that's just me personally, still you could make those changes relatively easily compared to the rest of the restoration work that was carried out.

 

Today I came across this car in a magazine, it's a concept car that Holden never made. The Holden Torana GTR-X.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Torana#Torana_GTR-X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvf5uIDlLFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J2upaGJXMA

 

The article quoted some of the original people from the GTR-X project as having seen the Datsun 240z and thought this could also be a success but the bean counters at GM said no and the project was scrapped. It makes you wonder what kind of a success it would have been if it was released? 

 

Some of the features like pop-up lights, hatch strut (like the 240z), bonnet opening from front etc.. Are all so similar in overall feel of the 240z and Toyota 2000GT. The tilt steering wheel was actually quite remarkable for back then also, when you consider it was 1970.

 

 

In my opinion though it's only a matter of time before values of the S30Z and other great Japanese cars of the same era increase in value, I think attitudes will change, when you consider the very first 240z's to arrive in Australia are now 44 years old a lot of that stigmatism will need to change. When you consider what some of the parts for these cars are now selling for also, the values can't remain low forever.

 

I feel they are the last true bargain for a vintage car enthusiast to pick up.

 

I do have a conflict of interest though, on the 1 hand I've always enjoyed these cars because they were great value for money, but as time goes by less and less people will be able to enjoy them the way I did. Still I guess that's the same way the current Silvia's, Skylines, RX-7's will go over the next 10 - 20 years.

 

 

 

[Mr260z]

Kinda my point too Lynton,

I think datsun prices are on the move up with even the 120y being advertised for around 10k.

Around a year or so ago I reckon the Zeds were at a peak in the pricing.

Now they seem all over the place from 3k to 90k.

I would think that Auszcar would be very influential in Zed prices as surely our members own the majority of Zeds around today.

So do we want to put the prices up?

I think we are better off just enjoying the Zed for what it is, a great classic sportscar that you can purchase for a fair price knowing that they will not decrease in value.

A car that was instantly a hit world wide from its release and probably caused the demise of a couple of British sportscars.

Just enjoy the drive

[denpal]

What will surely happen is that classic Japanese car values are re-rated over a period of a year or two - once the growing interest in this era (and there certainly seems to be growing wide-based international interest from what I have read) reaches a critical mass of increased demand and comes up against a shortfall in supply. When you think about it, supply is already fairly tight in the 240Z and 1600 lines if you're after investment grade cars, ie original specification in excellent condition with good history.

 

I note that Toyota 2000GT values are now around $US1,000,000, a significant increase over a couple of years ago.

 

I'm looking for a good 240Z at the moment in NZ and can tell you that nothing is available, month after month. I have an original spec one previous owner '69 1600SSS that needs company!

[260DET]

A lot to do with Zed prices is, or used to be, due to many owners who often had little money to spare and so cheapened the Zed image. The cars themselves then had little care or proper money spent on them, left outside all the time and so on. There is still some of that around but it certainly is changing. However a Zed is still Jap crap to some, unlike most euro sports cars which confer some prestige on the owners and this certainly adds to their value.

 

It's less to do with the capability of the car, more to do with image.

[PB260Z]

Another factor to consider.

 

In Aus we only got the general production versions of the Z's, whereas we got the homologation specials of the Torana and Falcon etc in limited to runs of 300 - 500 (or something like that)

 

If the 432 had been offered in the Aus market, in similar numbers (300) surely they would command a price similar to, or greater than a XU-1 Torana ?.

 

Any comments from the more knowledgable folk out there ?

 

 

[Lynton]

The nissan skyline gts was limited numbers, the 25th anniversary z32 by Steve millen was limited,  the 50th anniversary z31 was limited, none of which seemingly hold collectible value .....yet? Just a quick example.

Lynton

[dat2kman]

I do enjoy that my $50,000 Group S Zed, can spank $200,000 Porsche Carrera's on most tracks.

The 2.7 RS porka, now in the $250,000 plus territory, are a bit harder, can sit right with them though.

 

Have i mentioned that a Group S car s a standard specification car, with some minor modifications permitted, for racing?

And they can be very eadily further enhanced for Tarmac rally use, and are able to ge road registered!

A neat Group S Z would make a very good road car!

[nizm0zed]

The nissan skyline gts was limited numbers, the 25th anniversary z32 by Steve millen was limited,  the 50th anniversary z31 was limited, none of which seemingly hold collectible value .....yet? Just a quick example.

Lynton

 

Would you pay $90K for a 240z?

No, doubt it very much.

Unless you had the coin to spare, could look over it with a fine tooth comb, see the restoration receipts, admire the glass smooth finish on the paint, freshly plated bolts all the way under the undercarriage ect...

 

Not trying to be stereotypical or insulting, but the 'people' who drove the prices of the falcons and holdens through the roof were bogans with too much money, eg, plenty of time working hard in the mines, worked into unionised high paying positions, ex footy player and the list goes on.

By no means are they dumb people, or not deserving of the money they worked hard for (thats a different debate i wont touch) They are of the mentality that its either Holden or ford, Jap is crap, beer or whiskey is what you drink, ect ect, the stereotype to a tee, because thats what my daddy did ect ect.

A large portion of the market that has this disposable income at their age (mid 40's and older now) are 'classic' australians.

So by some standard that can dictate what they will buy.

An interesting trend is also the stereotypical 'wogboy' who have done a very good job of driving not only the aussie muscle car prices through the roof, but also some other classsics like the RX3, Valiants, classic Euros ect.

Point beings that the melting pot of aussie cultures is now at the point where there is such a massive range of people with a huge bacground, with passions ranging from going to bathurst year in with the old man to drink beer while chanting "Aussie aussie" right through to European descendants who remember riding in the back of papa's skoda back in the motherland to snooty prep boys with dreams of MG's, Bently's and Rolls Royce and so on and on.

Add into that the younger generation that are joining the game and getting into high paying jobs with a love for modern japanese and euro technology packed rides, stanced out or drift spec rides, or just a love for retro classic metal.

(this all sounds quite racist and im sure i have offended someone along the line, sorry if i did)

 

My point is, in the years to come, providing that the gumbyment doesnt shut it all down, we should in theory see a huge diversity in the 'car of choice' across all the enthusiasts within our own little corner of the market.

Im predicting that it will make it quite hard to estimate the potential for our cars, but hey, its not like they are going to drop in value!!

I for one welcome it and cant wait to see how the trends shape the scene.

 

[sydney mike]

'The car has to go Col. I've had enough of that useless piece of metal sitting in the garage. I want to park my Pajero there Col. Put it on the market now!'

'Yes dear.'

The next day Col listed the car for a ridiculous amount to scare of any sane person so that he can keep his useless piece of metal. Six months later it's still on the market and Jannet stills parks her Pajero in the driveway.

 

Thats quite insightful George, it never occured to me, but now you have made perfect sense. How about Col & Jannet go through a bitter divorce and out of spite, Col sells the Zed for $1 and gives Jannet 50c? 

 

 

As you mentioned cost of restoration is the same in many respects, so when I see a 240z with a bare metal restoration like the 1 mentioned on carsales website. I know that if someone was to pay for that kind of restoration then $65k is actually not bad when you consider what it will cost someone to build a car to that level of fit and finish.

 

We could say at least two of our members here have put in excess of six figures into restoring a S30, but they would not expect to recoup the cost in the event they need to sell it. This would be the case in any mass produced/ non limited-edition vehicle, in effect what a S30 is.

 

Another factor to consider.

 

In Aus we only got the general production versions of the Z's, whereas we got the homologation specials of the Torana and Falcon etc in limited to runs of 300 - 500 (or something like that)

 

If the 432 had been offered in the Aus market, in similar numbers (300) surely they would command a price similar to, or greater than a XU-1 Torana ?.

 

Any comments from the more knowledgable folk out there ?

 

And this is exactly the point, I totally agree. As you know there was only around 400 S20 powered Zeds made. So if you are going to compare apples with apples, the S20 powered Zeds and Skylines are the ones you need to compare with R/T Chargers, GT Falcons,GTS Monaros,XU1/SS/SLR Toranas. And another similarity, the S20 powered cars were, AFAIK only sold in Japan? Just like the Aussie muscle cars only in Australia. Although I think I read somewhere that they sold XY GT's in South Africa.

 

Add to that, the fact that Ford is packing up manufacturing here so no more Falcons, Holden will soon be "Ping pong, dim sims, Panda bears and Holden cars" which will probably spike the price in the above mentioned Ford/Holden muscle cars.

 

I'd imagine if you count RHD S30 production numbers worldwide they are going to be much higher than say the numbers of Torana's built. So if you are waiting for your S30 to deliver you a golden egg, it's going to be a while. Just drive the bloody thing!

 

Not necessarily facts, just IMHO.

 

cheers, Mike.

 

[Grandad]

Supply and demand is certainly a key driver to pricing. Another thing that helps that helps the XU-1, SL/R and GT's is that as kids people usedwatch them race race on weekend 40 years ago. Now those kids have grow up and have cash to spend on childhood dreams.

 

I've heard this referred to as the 40 year rule, just look at the age of most drivers in Aussie Muscle cars.

 

I put my son into his 260Z as his first car when he got his learners because he was showing interest in cars and I wanted us both to be able to go and play historic motor sport, which we have now done for quite a few years.  The first day at school after buying the car I suggested he just tell his mates that he had bought a Datsun then wait for the laughter and barbs but don't let on it's a Z, so he did and the laughter was loud and the barbs sharp right up to the day he drove it into the school car park, the general reaction was wow that's seriously cool you're so lucky can I have a ride in it.

 

My son is now an engineer and has commented on how many engineers own these cars, his ground up restoration is almost complete and while the market value is a long way of the restoration cost he now has a brand new classic and it's amazing how many people look at it and love the appearance but  don't have a clue what it is.

 

I've been doing most of the re-assembly work and have had numerous trips to parts suppliers, powder coaters, electro-platers etc and I'm often asked what my project is and I've found the response vary from, why are you doing it to that, to wow I love those you're so lucky will you show us when it's finished, the negative v positive response is about 70/30 to the positive, so my experience is that the old Jap Crap image is going and Nissan entering the V8 Stupidcars won't hurt that one little bit.