Exciting race - but where are the Z's?

[gav240z]

Hi everyone,

I just saw this video:

 

That was 1 of the best races I've ever seen video'd on youtube. No prisoners here and a true photo finish.

 

But where are all the Z's?

[C.A.R.]

Gav,

The RX2 is classed as an Historic Touing car: Grp Nc

240Z's are classed as an Production Sports car: Grp Sc - so that is the reason you didnt see any Zeds in that race.

It was not the right class for them

[NZeder]

So Grp Nc is for cars with a back seat then (I guess that is why I see a Porka) so a bus would make the grade if the fit within the year of the class as they have a back seat

[dat2kman]

Bloody Porka's, it isnt enuf that the krauts get massive concessions on rim size allowance in homologation papers for historic prod sports, but, as well, some numpty back in the early 1970's managed to be accepted in his Porka in  a touring car race, cos it had a miniscule excuse for a back seat, at Calder Park raceway, and bingo, it qualifies as a Touring car for historic group N. Alfa GTV 105's are same.

 

But just anyone try this with a 260 Z 2+2 , you will get howled down, even though one ran in qualifying at Bathurst 1000, but was a no show for the actual race.

 

Sorry Mike, its an Aussie thing! In group N you can run bigger brakes, wider rims, alloy radiators, greater camber, lighter weight, BUT NO 260 four seater!

 

Phuckern barstools (just quoting a old Datsun driver, from his in car footage from Bathurst races!)

[dat2kman]

And, fwiw, my 2litre four cylinder 1968 genuine historic group T Datsun, at same meeting, was put in the Group S prod sports field, im doing lap times equal to the top 6 group Nc cars, and i have to contend with 7 litre Corvettes,

5.8 litre DeTomao Panteta's, 2.7 and 3.0 litre Porka's, six cylinder Zed's, and i still manage fourth outright

 

A decent longwheel base Z in Gp N would give them a run for their money, btw the little Mk1 escort runs a full house Cosworth BDA twincam engine, 10.000 rpm, the rx2 runs to 10.000, both run four speed boxes and are doing 250 kmh, going into turn 1 ( i'm at 245 kmh, with no roof, wind buffetting is a concern!)

[1600dave]

Firstly, apologies if this is slightly off the topic, but since we have a few knowledgable folks posting - how does one determine a car's eligibility for Group N / S ?

 

What is the process for getting approval to run a particular model ? What info would I need to present / to whom do I present it ? I notice CAMS have a list of certain models and permitted mods, but what if my chosen car isn't on their list ?

 

Was hoping to ask around at the FoSC meeting in a few weeeks  time, but that's been canned now 

[NZeder]

Bloody Porka's, it isnt enuf that the krauts get massive concessions on rim size allowance in homologation papers for historic prod sports, but, as well, some numpty back in the early 1970's managed to be accepted in his Porka in  a touring car race, cos it had a miniscule excuse for a back seat, at Calder Park raceway, and bingo, it qualifies as a Touring car for historic group N. Alfa GTV 105's are same.

 

But just anyone try this with a 260 Z 2+2 , you will get howled down, even though one ran in qualifying at Bathurst 1000, but was a no show for the actual race.

 

Sorry Mike, its an Aussie thing! In group N you can run bigger brakes, wider rims, alloy radiators, greater camber, lighter weight, BUT NO 260 four seater!

 

Phuckern barstools (just quoting a old Datsun driver, from his in car footage from Bathurst races!)

I totally understand Jason it is even worse over here - Mazda Rx which are very very popular you just don't see at classic meetings and even then the Datsun 240z/260z are invite only (talking locally here in Auckland) as the series organisers don't seem to like Japanese cars. There is Japanese class that has been setup but it has rolling 20 years so this season aka 2011/12 1991/92 car qualify so there is 1 x 240z (my mate Ricky) and 1 x 260z that race in that class and they are the only 70's Jap cars in the field the rest are late 80's 1600 aka Honda CRX, AE85/86, Turbo MR2 etc - not what I could call classics but then I was born in the 70's so I guess to someone who is mid 20's starting to race they would see these cars a classic......

 

Motorsport NZ rules for classic racing are good see http://motorsport.org.nz/assets/MotorSport-Manual/App-6.05-Sch-TC-2010.pdf for modified cars - there is another class for standard cars and "The cars raced in period as they were" the Schedule K rules. The T&C rules have tightened up over the last 5-10 years so things that have always been "Free" now have defined what "Free" means in the past it was a free for all  The issue is Motorsport NZ set the rules not hold race meetings so it is up to the series co-ordinator to make their own set of rules for the class they want to run under T&C - after all it is their call they are just volunteers so if they don't like Mazda's they don't allow them to run.

 

So out T&C rules are good - pick your car, do period mods using period parts/technology and enjoy - finding someone who will let you run your car is another issue. 

[dat2kman]

I dont reckon you are off topic 1600 Dave, after all the op was of a historic Gp N race. What do you ave in mi d, what mods would ypu like?

Other ars not on the lists can be offered for consideration in both N&S, bearing in mind cut off dates for the subclasses, but run on models are permitted.

Cams historics often muck up the lists, so just cos ypu cant find it dont mean it wont be allowed.

 

Fwiw, by time you prepare setup and get it to a track, the cost of a new car can be steep, consider buying a proven performer!

Oh, like my Z! Or if you want to play historic sports sedans group U, i have a front running car also for sale, $25 k

[1600dave]

For a year or two now, I've been toying with the idea of racing the love child of a Fairlady and an old Bluebird - a 411 SSS 

 

One of my questions is whether its necessary to use a genuine 411 SSS (hard to find), or whether I can get a standard 1300-engined one and basically whack in one of my spare fairlady engines / gearboxes ? Sort-of the Datsun equivalent of building up a twincam escort from a base model 1300XL escort - how much of the SSS would I need in this case ? Major parts like the front disc brakes are a given, but would I need to track down SSS badges, grille (which is ever-so-slightly different to a 1300 grille), instruments, and so on ?

 

Modifications aren't as much of a concern, whatever fits within the rules - I don't anticipate getting in and dicing with the Mustangs for 1st place  .  I'm just thinking I wouldn't mind stepping up into "real" racing after doing supersprints / regularity / hillclimbs / etc for a while now, and doing it in a car that interests me. Bit of a mid-life crisis of sorts 

 

 

[dat2kman]

Very valid car, these raced in mid 1960's at Bathurst, so they cannot knock you back, also sold in Australia, so you afe in.

As far as mods go, whatever rules for Gp n would apply, also the year of msnufacture would have ypu with NaNb fields, not with later post 1970 Nc, so, you would be well in with a chsnce of class outright awards!!!

 

Re mods, well, bigger brakes, Lou' special suspension, as per Horton Poulters tarmac 66 Bluey, the motor would have to shown, as being available somewhere in tne world as being fitted, you know, in South Africa, i am sure they WERE!!! Get a hold og rulrs for year specific NaNbNc and ask more questions. I can get you onto the .

"rigjt" elegibility people, and in order to get more cars like this, ceryain things would be accepted, but not spoken about,,,, OK!!!

Some correct badges, and correct dash would be needed, the shell could be normal 411. A stink hot Lou motor that loves to rev

Go for it!

[bluerat]

Good thinking Dave!! In 1964 the factory ran two 1300ss in the Sandown 6 hour under the Scuderia Veloce team. They entered a team of three Bluebirds in the 1965 Bathurst but pulled them out after practice. They didn't compete in the race due to cracking steel wheels. In 1966 they entered a team of 4 at Bathurst and won class A. The first one rolled of the Australian production line in Nov 24, 1966. You would have too prove that one competed in the Australian Touring car championship during that period and I'm not sure that Bathurst counts being a stand alown race?? Jason Ol' bean, what's your understanding? Your next step is read the on line CAMS manual-historic and then contact the 'The Historic Touring Car Eligibility Commitee'. Try and get hold of a set of FIA Homolgation papers, if avalible and a workshop manual.

 

If you could get it passed as 1964 you should be able to run Nb(pre-1965) or Nc (1965-1972) after that.

 

Engine size in Nc is std stroke and 1.5mm overbore only. Bodywork and fittings 'Must be as supplied by the manufacturer'

 

As for the 2+2, Gordon Dobie said in his post they were pulled out before the race because they didn't comply to the 'Touring car' rules, I presume interier size dimentions??

 

I always thought a 1600 would be hopeless in Nc against the 2002's and GTV's given the smaller engine and 4 speed but I'm being proved wrong!! might be another option Dave. Would be a lot easier to get sorted....

 

Hodgo

[bluerat]

LOL you beat me to it Jase, Your right it would be great to see, and that tarmac rally car you mentioned is pretty quick!!

 

What's there weight? and Nb would be the class if you clould get it in!!

[NZeder]

a 411 ss (not sure if they were sss but ss) would be the go

[Quandary]

If you could get the 2 door model it would be mad. The SSS at that time was used by a factory team. Would be good to know what improvements they did with it.

 

As for the 2+2, Gordon Dobie said in his post they were pulled out before the race because they didn't comply to the 'Touring car' rules, I presume interier size dimentions??

 

I thought it was something to do with backseat or legroom being too small.

[1600dave]

Yep, the one I was thinking of is the SSS, a 411 factory fitted with the Fairlady R16 engine and a close-ratio 4 speed.

 

Sold in Australia in this format, and I'm pretty sure also raced in SSS guise. The SSS came out late in the model's lifetime, so I think it would be in Nc. Definitely raced as the earlier SS model, although this was still the old J-series 1300 engine with twin SU's fitted and only 77hp. But then again, an SS could possibly scrape into Nb, and in a lower capacity class.......

 

The SSS is under 900kg and was rated at 96hp from the factory, so a very similar power-to-weight as a Datto 1600. Same engine as the Fairlady but without the added weight of a full chassis.

 

Thanks for the info guys ! If you have any contacts Jason, I'd love to get some names so I can have a chat to someone about this stuff.

[NZeder]

wow learn something new - I only knew of the 411 SS with the J13 so to see this talk on the SSS with the R engine - nice

[dat2kman]

Dave, over on ozdat in f/s section someone is parting out a 411 SSS! Dunno whats left?

My mate and neighbour is the head/chairman of the Historic Touring CarElegibility Panel at CAMS. He is keen for little ones to come and play, adds a bit of variety.

You just have to "prove"that all the competition options were fitted to any 411 that was sold, and you can then present a car matching that.

 

Surely thete is someone on hete that has old documents that shows one of tnese was bougjt brand new and bristling with all the goid gear, i am sure Lurch has some very old paperwork in his collection, he has got some for me to look at, all original and genuinely fascinating, it is!!!

[dat2kman]

Present a '64 model, with the run on rules it can be fitted with R16, twin hitachi su, a close ratio box it may have to run as a SS with SS instruments and badges, as the SSS was later, you dont want to be in Nc, as, at large meetings they split N into two groups, ie all the quicks in a Nc race, and all rhe oldies in a combined NaNb races, which is sensible.

Simon Brown runs a wreckets in Melnb, on his facebook wall he has put pics of the old nissans racing, also inside front or somewhete of old ausdie motor race yearbooks are pics of all class winners from years ago, plenty of 411, 1200 and 1600 with lots of names there.. Ya gotta pick Lous brains re Horton Poulters Taga Tassie 411 that car would qulaify for gp N, id reckon, besides the cams officers are too old to remember just what was done, but if you fronted with day a much more modern engine, it would be a "no"

Andre Briet runs a Fairlady 1600 with a slightly?? Modded R motor in gp S prod sports, does well, has a ball, and cheap to run, his mate Claude Movia, along with Syd Carr, all from NSW Dato Roadster club will be very happy to help get one of tnese up and running. Cams logbooking procedure is not at all difficult either!

 

[1600dave]

Thanks for all that !

 

I've been thinking about this on and off for a while, the one on Ozdat is what triggered my interest again due to being able to get the "SSS" specific parts from the wreck. However, he has since decided to keep it and race it himself. It was actually the "spare parts" car for another SSS that was on eBay a few weeks back, the guy bought both and was selling stuff off the parts car to recoup some of his money.

 

I'm in the NSW Roadster club, not real active (since both of mine don't run  ), and was speaking to Andre at an FoSC meeting earlier this year. I'm looking to do something similar, a fairly basic car, just for fun and with no real intention of being at the pointy end of the field. Getting into Na / Nb would be a better option, will look into it.

 

I'll have a look at CAMS and try to speak to someone about it. It'll be a medium-term project (a year or two, probably more), I just want to be able to get firm answers so I can start planning.

 

If all else fails, I guess I could always run one of my fairlady's in group S

[53-681]

Gav,

The RX2 is classed as an Historic Touing car: Grp Nc

240Z's are classed as an Production Sports car: Grp Sc - so that is the reason you didnt see any Zeds in that race.

It was not the right class for them

 

 

So basically they were outclassed?

 

How do you know so much bro

[dat2kman]

well i race with that lot, in Prod Sports, and I have a historic sports sedan i am finishing off, so pretty familiar with the whole racing scene, Lourch has been on the periphery of it all, and likewaise a lot of other guys here.Why you ask?

You got a car you'd like to put on track? it is not too hard, and a lot of fun!

[gav240z]

well i race with that lot, in Prod Sports, and I have a historic sports sedan i am finishing off, so pretty familiar with the whole racing scene, Lourch has been on the periphery of it all, and likewaise a lot of other guys here.Why you ask?

You got a car you'd like to put on track? it is not too hard, and a lot of fun!

 

Personally I would love to get into some racing. Either in the z or the rx7 I think the z would be cheaper and maybe more fun. I'll be picking all your brains when the time comes. Is there a good online resource that spells out the rules and info so you can research all this yourself?

[PZG302]

Personally I would love to get into some racing. Either in the z or the rx7 I think the z would be cheaper and maybe more fun. I'll be picking all your brains when the time comes. Is there a good online resource that spells out the rules and info so you can research all this yourself?

 

For racing here in Aus, jump on the cams website and search for the on line manual, from there you will find all the categories and the rules for each including eligible cars where there are lists.

[dat2kman]

Gav, buy my historic logbooked Group U sports sedan, series 1rx7 690kg, mid mount 13 b pp fresh motor and box, full suspension setup, big brakes, complete ready to run, just needs fuel lines and carb linkages setup, has 6 fronts, two rears,10" wide rims,  full race  compliance.

Best of all CAMS has said the U cars are to race with the group C and A touring cars!

Do the math, its a front runner, why pay $200,000 for a gp a/c, when ypu can steal this from me for $25k atm.

Once i get it finished, and some runs on the board, and probably fall in love with it, the price will go up!

Oh also comes with heaps spares and full body moulds, but the rest of the forum fraternity will be sure to dis-own you! And they sound bloody horrid!!!

[gav240z]

For racing here in Aus, jump on the cams website and search for the on line manual, from there you will find all the categories and the rules for each including eligible cars where there are lists.

 

Thanks will do that.

 

Gav, buy my historic logbooked Group U sports sedan, series 1rx7 690kg, mid mount 13 b pp fresh motor and box, full suspension setup, big brakes, complete ready to run, just needs fuel lines and carb linkages setup, has 6 fronts, two rears,10" wide rims,  full race  compliance.

Best of all CAMS has said the U cars are to race with the group C and A touring cars!

Do the math, its a front runner, why pay $200,000 for a gp a/c, when ypu can steal this from me for $25k atm.

 

I can't commit to anything like that right now, not sure when I'll be back in Oz yet.

 

Once i get it finished, and some runs on the board, and probably fall in love with it, the price will go up!

Oh also comes with heaps spares and full body moulds, but the rest of the forum fraternity will be sure to dis-own you! And they sound bloody horrid!!!

 

 

Horrid but funny . I like a dirty rotor. Look at this bozo driving a PP on the street.