Plated or Suretrac LSD?

[G]

Hi All

 

At present I’m upgrading my suspension and driveline.

 

As part of pulling the rear end to pieces I’m going to install a Subaru STI LSD with the Betamotorsport half shafts and the newfangled modified diff mount.

 

I’ve been offered a plated R180 3.9 LSD for the same price as a Suretrac or Torsen, however I really don’t know much about diffs.

 

Is a plated diff suitable for general driving and spirited road use, or will this result in something which is difficult/noisy to drive and I should’ve gone Suretrac or Torsen instead?

 

Cheers

[NZeder]

road car or track? track clsd, road torsen are great as less maintenance no plates to check/replace

[G]

99.9% road use.

 

These guys suggest open diff!!

 

http://www.taylor-race.com/pdf/understanding_differentials.pdf

[Riceburner]

I run a torsen in my R180, I find it a lot smoother than the clutch pack style on the track and on the road. I find there's a lot less 'push' on turn in. Also they are silent, you won't know it's there, where the clutch pack can clunk as it locks and unlocks.

 

[d3c0y]

Torsens wont lock as hard as a clutch and they freak out if one wheel is off the ground and wont lock.

 

 

Clutch is fine for both, Suretrak for street.

 

 

What's your 3.9 coming out of? Check it out when you get it because 90% of 3.9s will be Suretraks. Only car i found that came with a clutch 3.9 was a GDB STi spec-c.

[G]

I believe it's out of a Spec-C car.

 

Not sure if I'll ever have one wheel off the ground on the road!!

 

Not since the cops started sitting on the road to the Black Spur anyway...

[d3c0y]

What about when you come out of a driveway or drive over a pot hole?

[dat2kman]

Or if you do a track day, and kiss a kerb on the inside?

 

A few of the tarmac rally guys have tried the SurTrac/ATB/Quaife/Torsen type centres, and found that when pushed hard, with a degree of lateral sideways slip angle on car ( oversteer) they just simply release and act like an open centre, and that's with both rear tyres on the ground.

 

Go for a clutchpack/plates type centre.

ExDR30 ones pop up, but, they do not have full complement of plates.

I had plates from a Isuz ute fitted, thicker material, less shimming, for more stable breakaway pre-load settings.

[d3c0y]

Or you can just use a subi 180 with a clutch center as this guy and I have got.

[Riceburner]

So unless you drive damn hard on track or targa events it will be next to impossible to tell the difference, right?

 

I know mine locks fully on track/street as I've seen the tyre marks on corner exit, it locks both wheels on gravel too. The only time it went open was when I snapped the stub axle, I'm glad it did too. I can't rotate one wheel if the wheel is jacked up and when it's on stands with both wheels will only rotate in the same direction. Can't recall what brand it is but it's definitely a torsen  :-\

[G]

Gareth, I might know where a cheap, plated 4.44 is if you want to play with it. Only reason I didn't buy it is because I have a road car and hence really need more like a 3.9.

 

OK guys - might go with the plated one then. Thanks for your help..

[d3c0y]

So unless you drive damn hard on track or targa events it will be next to impossible to tell the difference, right?

 

I know mine locks fully on track/street as I've seen the tyre marks on corner exit, it locks both wheels on gravel too. The only time it went open was when I snapped the stub axle, I'm glad it did too. I can't rotate one wheel if the wheel is jacked up and when it's on stands with both wheels will only rotate in the same direction. Can't recall what brand it is but it's definitely a torsen  :-\

 

 

Apparently they wear out quicker on the track too. From what i've read you can tell the difference and does yours lock under decel? I can't remember.

I don't think it will bother you though it's not like you are after that last 1/10sec.

[imackz]

I use a Kazz LSD which is plated on the road, once bedded in it is fine and probably better if you are running higher HP

[Riceburner]

Gareth, I might know where a cheap, plated 4.44 is if you want to play with it. Only reason I didn't buy it is because I have a road car and hence really need more like a 3.9.

 

OK guys - might go with the plated one then. Thanks for your help..

 

Thanks for the offer Gareth, but I'm very happy with my setup.

[260DET]

I have always used a torsen type and, providing the car is suitably set up, have never had a problem on the road or track. If the car is losing grip with a torsen then it is not set up properly, because it does not have a clutch pack to slip it is more efficient too.

[acf321]

very interesting thread fellas and as the Hornet comes out of a five year hibernation (Yipeeee!) next week I am too considering if I need an LSD. Suspect it won't be going to the shops too often, and sunday mornings will be the preferred choice of use. Having said that, given I use the OEM 3.9 R180 diff, and assuming I wanted to get a 'torsen' style LSD, what are the current options available to me?

 

I've heard of several brands including Kaaz, Quaife and OS Giken, but can anybody point out what brands are available, and perhaps how they might line up in terms of quality, and price? I saw Ben Zed can get the OS type, but as for the others, what is out for the 3.9 R180 diff?

 

Cheers

 

Adam

[mossy]

I used the betamotorsports side axles with a sti r180 lsd (I think it was an 06 diff)

[dat2kman]

R200 clutchpack Nissan units a far more plentifull, and cheaper.

Ex DR 30 Skyline, and stock stubs from 260z and ZX ( non cv shaft model) knock straight in, and your halfshafts bolt straight up.

Use a r200 260z moustache bar

Watch for halfshaft bind on compression, as r200 is a bit wider

 

Stock dr30 limo units are set quite low, about 40 pound breakaway, they are easily clutched up, for spirited street use, about 70-90 pounds max.

 

But, if you get a cheaper torsen/gear type for r180, go with that. From a Subie, they need the made up outputs.

[G]

I've also got the betamotorsport axles. They're a pretty impressive piece of kit, albeit quite costly.

I'm currently putting an R180 3.9 Subaru WRX Spec C Plated LSD in, along with the diff mount from Technoversions.

 

I'm hoping this sorts out the "clunk" forever!

[C.A.R.]

I doubt you'll need a LSD for road driving Adam. With your well setup suspension, it'll stay planted 99% of the time anyway.

 

Heck, I used to do supersprints & hillclimbs with an open diff...

[acf321]

Yeah thanks Lads, I think Lockie I won't rush into it as I'm unlikely to go completely berserk on the road (unless I see Mossy or Gareth of course and need to show 'em a thing or two). I will of course use the Hornet for the first few months and just shake it down and see what's what. If it needs alteration at a later date, of course I will consider an LSD then. Great thread though.

[Enzo]

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R180 Limited Slip Differential Center

Automatic Torque Biasing (ATB) differential to fit Nissan/Datsun R180 diffs.

Suits Datsun 1600, 240k, Z cars, Nissan Skyline (early models), and 720 utes.

 

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The ATB style differential is one of the best LSD's available. It powers both drive wheels under all conditions. With an ordinary open differential, standard on most cars, a lot of horse power is wasted during wheelspin under acceleration. This happens because the open differential shifts power to the wheel with less grip (along the path of least resistance). The ATB differential, however, does just the opposite. It senses which wheel has the better grip, and biases the power to that wheel. It does this smoothly and constantly, and without ever completely removing power from the other wheel. In (drag-race) straight-line acceleration runs, this results in a close to ideal 50/50 power split to both drive wheels, resulting in essentially twice the grip of an ordinary open differential.

During cornering, while accelerating out of a turn, the ATB differential biases power to the outside wheel, reducing inside-wheel spin. This allows the driver to begin accelerating earlier, exiting the corner at a higher speed. The diff also controls loss of traction when the front wheels are on slippery surfaces such as mud, snow and ice, providing the appropriate biased traction needed to overcome these adverse conditions.

The ATB differential provides constant and infinitely variable drive. Power is transferred automatically without the use of normal friction pads or plates seen in other limited-slip designs. It is extremely strong and durable and since it is gear operated, it has no plates or clutches that can wear out and need costly replacement.

The differential unique design offers maximum traction, improves handling and steering, and puts the power where it is needed most. It is great for street driving or racing. Because it behaves like an open differential during ordinary driving, you will have trouble telling it's there until pushing the car to its limits.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q. How much power can the differential handle?

A. The internal spiral gears and components are identical to those fitted into the GT3 Porsche model which can handle in excess of 350hp.

Q. What diff housing does the center fit?

A. The differential center will bolt into the Nissan/Datsun R180 housing (using the existing ring and pinion gear). It accepts the bolt in style stub axles. (Call for information on the cir-clip snap in stub axles). The R180 differential can be found in Datsun 240Ks, early Skylines, Z cars, the front of 720 utes, and some others.

Q. Will the R180 diff bolt into a Datsun 1600 with out any mods?

A. Yes, but you must use the R180 half shafts as the standard halfshafts on a 1600 (R160 diff) will not fit an R180 diff.

Q. Can I bolt the center in myself?

A. The diff center will bolt in but the diff will need to be set up by a professional as the crown wheel to pinion gear preload needs to be set up precisely. We also recommend replacing all the bearings while the diff is apart. Fitment of the diff center and alignment by a diff specialist should cost around $150-200 not including new bearings. Q. What oil should I use?

A. We recommend Penzoil LSD 90 grade oil.

 

http://members.optushome.com.au/amaxeng/five10/internal.jpg[/img]

 

Q. How does the diff work?

A. The diff is reasonably complicated to explain but is very simple in the way it works. The center is made up up a series of spiral gears that are cut in opposite directions. The angle on the gears allows the diff to load up and transfer power to the opposite wheel. The gears work against one and other automatically torque biasing the power to both wheels.

Q. Will it wear or need any maintenance?

A. Because the diff uses gears instead of friction pads or plates, the diff has virtually no wear. As long as the diff is setup correctly and the fluid level maintained the diff center should not need any maintaince at all.

 

 

 

 

NOTE: Center fits R180 ring gear with the 115mm carrier. 110mm carrier ring gears are common in earlier diffs. Later model diffs are recognisable by a large K cast in the top of the diff housing but its best to check the carrier size (by removing the back plate and measuring with calipers) to confirm this.

Center accepts bolt in style stub axle half shafts only. For circlip snap in style please call.

$1450 AUS dollars + GST & Shipping

For more information or for a shipping quotation email or call Max on 0418 485 460

Amax Engineering

Donvale

Victoria, Australia 3111

Phone Max: 0418 485 460

amaxeng@optushome.com.au

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[Riceburner]

That's the type I run, it's an excellent diff centre. They were made by Modena Engineering.

[d3c0y]

i don't see the point when you can buy a subi diff and beta stub axles for about half the price, plus you get a newer diff.

 

 

Plus if you need a K diff then you can't use a zed diff. You have to find an open 80s model R180 to buy in the first place??

[Riceburner]

Agreed, I got mine cheap so it worked out for me.

 

If your looking for an LSD now It has to be a Subaru torsen or clutch. Even with beta shafts it's still cheaper.

 

With the extra weight I can't see why people go with an R200.