Can standard brake/accelerator pedal placement be improved for heel and toe?

[KatoKid]

So....I'm about to fit an accelerator pedal in my project and given I have free reign on placement I'm looking for advice on the standard placement of the accelerator pedal in relationship to the brake pedal and this works for heel and toe.

 

I realize this is a very personal thing and brake set up and style plays a big part.......could the accelerator pedal be closer to the brake, should it be higher or lower etc???

 

Thanks

 

David

[PeterAllen]

David – I went through this exercise.

 

I phoned the RTA and they advised there were no specific requirements.  I conducted my own research by measuring a few vehicles and found the pedal spacing for clutch and brake was very similar on most cars so I figure it is some ergonomics thing that works itself out.  Fortunately for me the Holden ‘drive by wire’ accelerator had a long rod (similar to the std) which I can shape to any position and I’ll modify that by trial and error. It will depend on how much travel there is of the brake pedal.

 

I think you are best to find an existing arrangement you are happy with and replicated the positions. I don’t feel it’s something that can be calculated by theory/ formula.

 

One issue I did discover is that the foot pad plates (welded to the pedal shaft) were also all very close in shape and this allowed me to fit the Holden foot pads with only a small extension to the plates. In fact the Holden were a pretty good fit in the first place but if you are doing heel and toe you don’t want any flex in the foot pad so I did the modification.

 

Note; I have offset the pivot bush for the clutch as the m/c has been moved to facilitate installation of the Holden booster.

 

(edit) The diagram is something I found in my research and i kept in a folder. Looking at it now I now realise it worth diddly squat!

[260DET]

Seeing that your right foot has to simultaneously work the brake and accelerator you need to work out how you are going to position your foot to do that. With mine the accelerator is a lot closer to the brake pedal than in that first pic above, the only thing I've found is that you have to be aware and precise with foot placement to avoid double pedalling.                                                 

[NZeder]

Have a really good look at the stock positions you will notice the wheel is not straight and aims out to your right shoulder. Then look at the pedal location. If I was looking to make a change look at getting things in a better location when sitting/driving. My track car has a wilwood pedal box and a new accelerator pedal that puts it closer to the brake pedal. For a race car I would not use a stock 240z they bend too easy. If you want to stick with a stock leaver get a 260z item it is made a lot stronger.

[KatoKid]

Thanks guys, excellent advice.

 

Peter, that diagram is worth something. Its good verification of how much lower the accel pedal needs to be compare to the brake pedal but ultimately it will come down to each cars individual brake system. In my case Ive got R33 GTST master cylinder (1 inch) and booster (dual diaphragm) pushing on R33 GTST calipers at the front and R31 on the rear so who knows where the brake pedal will really end up in comparison to the accel pedal.

 

DET, my feeling is that closer to the brake pedal is better but as you point out double pedalling is definitely a risk, not so much if you are wearing booties but in street shoes ....yes.

 

Mike, when you are talking about stock levers bending are you referring to brake or accel?

[NZeder]

accelerator.

 

However a mate changed he shape of the stock brake when adding a pedal box (modifying the stock pedal) given he had to get crack testing/xray on the stock item he added a back bone to the brake pedal (think of the stock pedal like this | when looking from the top down, minus the foot  landing his now is like this T so it has a back bone/t brace)

[KatoKid]

Thanks Mike.

 

Ive grabbed an accel pedal assembly from a EB/ED/EF Falcon, its a very simple yet strong set up which looks like it wont flex. A few people have recommended them for conversions....we will see.

[dat2kman]

I actually find the stock pedal setup, while wearing thin soled very flexible race boots, works quite well.

Biggest issue i do have is lack of enough clutch pedal depression on gearchanges, which in racing tends to be a fair bit quicker than normal road use..

[PZG302]

As Jason said, the standard S30 pedal layout works well for heel and toeing, both for race and road, well the way I do it anyway, using the ball of my foot on the brake pedal and the outside edge of my foot near the heel for the accelerator pedal with my size 10 feet.

[dat2kman]

I have dainty delicate size 8 foots, and rather than Matt's way with his gigantor three toed clodhoppers, i use my heel on the bottom of the accel pedal, and toes on brake pedal.

Other times i will left foot brake for rolling starts, ie Lakeside races, or to load up/weight teansfer going into a corner.

 

It is also usefull to left foot brake momentarily so the other competitors behind me in a race get a bit of a accel pedal lift off, ie a WTF moment.

 

Wearing snug thin flexible race boots helps.

 

To OP, there is no readon why you couldnt weld on an additional bit of flat plate to the edge of brake pedal metal

[260DET]

Jeez, you two must have octopus legs to heel and toe a standard S30 pedal setup. I wear size 12's and could never do it.

[Zedman240®]

Its easy with my size 13's....

 

As Jason said, the standard S30 pedal layout works well for heel and toeing, both for race and road, well the way I do it anyway, using the ball of my foot on the brake pedal and the outside edge of my foot near the heel for the accelerator pedal with my size 10 feet.

 

Same way I do it.... works very well but I remember I had to "manipulate" the accel pedal a tad for it to work 100%

[260DET]

Hmmmm, real heel and toeing is done by using the left foot to depress the clutch, the right foot to brake and blip the throttle and the left hand to downshift all at the same time. To do this the right foot has to simultaneously brake and blip the throttle, not brake and then blip. My size 12's would not cover the stock gap between the brake and accelerator pedals so how can the brake and throttle be worked together? Plenty of talk but no proof eg pics.

[PZG302]

yep, pinch of piss Richard, now I am a professional advanced driving instructor as well do you want some lessons? ;D

 

In all seriousness yes, the S30 standard set up is easy to blip on the downchange whilst double depressing the clutch pedal. The only car I have had problems with was the Astra convertible with a fly by wire throttle. You gave it a blip and nothing happened because the computer decided it didn't want to rev with the car in neutral on the downchange.

 

The hairdresser car is even easier and the S14 is easy as well. Even the Chugger pedals are fine, just gotta be a bit flexible on how you your foot works the pedals.

[260DET]

No pissing contest please, to help the OP to come to his own conclusion this is how I do a heel and toe.

 

Firstly, as all my normal braking is done with the ball of the foot on the pedal that is the sensitive part so that is the part used for a H&T to retain braking sensitivity, no lockups or reduced braking. With that part of the foot located on the brake pedal there is a limited amount of foot movement available to reach the accelerator. The foot can't be moved sideways because that would interfere with braking. What can be done is pivot the foot a bit on it's ball so the heel can reach the accelerator pedal for a quick blip, if it is close enough.

 

It's easy enough to blip the accelerator with the foot still on the brake pedal, the hard part is retain braking efficiency while doing so.

 

Meh to the 'driving instructor' and the other bloke who crunches gear shifts, I'm faster around Lakeside so suck 

[dat2kman]

Richo, put the spondoolicks where the flapping jaw is!

On Sept 21/22 weekend, come racing with other sports cars, albeit much slower Historic Production Spirts cars, there'll be a couple of Fezza 308's or a Trumpy TR4 that you can play with.

Us quick blokes, in our stock proddy sports will be out front.

We'll wave to you as we lap you on around lap 6 of the races.

 

I'll ask the organisers to accept your LuxoBargeArse ZX as an "invited car"

 

Hehehe!

[Zedman240®]

While my right foot is on the brake pedal pressing hard, its on a roughly 4-5 o'clock angle? I can place a camera next time i'm going around and take a vid. And yes, the throttle is blipped at the same time I'm braking while down shifting...When I first started, I did the "occasional" comp lock up and they weren't much fun; had to learn quick!

[260DET]

Richo, put the spondoolicks where the flapping jaw is!

On Sept 21/22 weekend, come racing with other sports cars, albeit much slower Historic Production Spirts cars, there'll be a couple of Fezza 308's or a Trumpy TR4 that you can play with.

Us quick blokes, in our stock proddy sports will be out front.

We'll wave to you as we lap you on around lap 6 of the races.

 

I'll ask the organisers to accept your LuxoBargeArse ZX as an "invited car"

 

Hehehe!

 

Where is that at Jason, Lakeside? I love the 280ZXT, so nice to drive fast, but racing it is out because of the unavailability of replacement panels from the windscreen back. So sprints it is even though a couple of blokes have done their best to dent it anyway. A few of us will be doing the Lakeside midweek sprints next month if you want to join us and do some laps.

[PZG302]

While my right foot is on the brake pedal pressing hard, its on a roughly 4-5 o'clock angle? I can place a camera next time i'm going around and take a vid. And yes, the throttle is blipped at the same time I'm braking while down shifting...When I first started, I did the "occasional" comp lock up and they weren't much fun; had to learn quick!

 

That's the easiest way with a zed set up, using the ball of the foot on the brake and a quick roll of the outside of the foot on the throttle to blip the throttle. I also find that I double declutch on downshifts due to learining to drive in dungas with buggered synchros. Also learnt to drive hiluxes without using the clutch except when moving off, though did once drive a g60 patrol from south of nowra to the blue mountains with no clutch slave cylinder. Thankfully the starter motor coped in 2nd at traffic lights.

[PZG302]

Where is that at Jason, Lakeside? I love the 280ZXT, so nice to drive fast, but racing it is out because of the unavailability of replacement panels from the windscreen back. So sprints it is even though a couple of blokes have done their best to dent it anyway. A few of us will be doing the Lakeside midweek sprints next month if you want to join us and do some laps.

 

Well have a play at qr with prodsports. To get more involved they are lossening the requirements for compliance at qr and Lakeside so people can have a run to see what all the fuss of door to door racing is about. Only other requirement is the car is an eligible prod sports, which the luxobarge is, and the usual qr racing requirements.

[NZeder]

Well this is all something I will have to learn with my wilwood pedal box - not sure I could do it with the stock pedals. Like any good kiwi boy I played Rugby Union and with that comes joint injuries. My right ankle would be the worst too it has limited movement after a 120KG prop jumped on it when it was sticking out the side of ruck - back in the day when rucking was allowed.

 

For the VIC members a Ruck is not like your AFL Ruckman. It is when the ball is somewhere in a pile of bodies and player who think they see the ball will ruck (strick with the boot) as hard as they can to get the opposition hands of the ball or bodies out of the way etc. Sometime over zealous forward will even jump down with that first ruck movement aka my ankle sticking out the side and as I have a left leg and was on my left side my right was off the ground. So when a 120KG is jumping into the mall and lands on your right ankle it gives up very quickly and in my case the quick way to the ground was a 90 degree (more like 70 degree as there was some movement with the compression of flesh) bend = busted ankle.

 

Anyway the stock pedals would require too much angle for my limited movement that I have. I can only hope that I can do still do with the setup I have.

[PZG302]

Well this is all something I will have to learn with my wilwood pedal box - not sure I could do it with the stock pedals. Like any good kiwi boy I played Rugby Union and with that comes joint injuries. My right ankle would be the worst too it has limited movement after a 120KG prop jumped on it when it was sticking out the side of ruck - back in the day when rucking was allowed.

 

For the VIC members a Ruck is not like your AFL Ruckman. It is when the ball is somewhere in a pile of bodies and player who think they see the ball will ruck (strick with the boot) as hard as they can to get the opposition hands of the ball or bodies out of the way etc. Sometime over zealous forward will even jump down with that first ruck movement aka my ankle sticking out the side and as I have a left leg and was on my left side my right was off the ground. So when a 120KG is jumping into the mall and lands on your right ankle it gives up very quickly and in my case the quick way to the ground was a 90 degree (more like 70 degree as there was some movement with the compression of flesh) bend = busted ankle.

 

Anyway the stock pedals would require too much angle for my limited movement that I have. I can only hope that I can do still do with the setup I have.

 

Well if you don't wear the numbers 1 to 5 then you have no place in the ruck and should be spat out the back at high speed....... I played 2nd row for a few years of senior rugby before my knees gave up and I had to retire in my mid 20's.

 

Another option, which has been used in a few car types is to use the automatic type brake pedal, being bigger may close the gap between pedals that you are after.

[NZeder]

Well if you don't wear the numbers 1 to 5 then you have no place in the ruck and should be spat out the back at high speed....... I played 2nd row for a few years of senior rugby before my knees gave up and I had to retire in my mid 20's.

 

Another option, which has been used in a few car types is to use the automatic type brake pedal, being bigger may close the gap between pedals that you are after.

Correct I was the one who was tackled  I guess I was not fast enough in that case....I usually was ok silly backs lol I played 11, 13 or 15.

[Agno]

Second row over here. I miss those days, it was a great way to let off some steam!

[Riceburner]

You guys should try passing the ball forwards, you'll get down the end a lot faster 

 

Getting back on topic, I've never had an issue with this on road or on track, the stock setup is almost perfect I think. Size ten shoes BTW.

 

The attached pic is of a works 240ZR interior, you can see the pedal setup also. Throttle pedal has been modified though, looks fairly easy to replicate.