Nissan vs Other Manufacturers in the 70's

[George]

So, as the title says, how did Nissan compare to other manufacturers of the time in terms of build quality, features and overall value? Were they advanced for their time, middle of the pack representing good value or keeping the ship afloat with zip ties and duct tape? Did they innovate or copy?

 

How does a 240 compare to say a 911, an E-type, SS, XY or RX3's etc of the time?

[gav240z]

I can only go by what someone (FD RX-7 owner) told me regarding RX3s but he said that they didn't handle very well (leaf springs etc..) and put enough power through them and they twist pretty easily (although he said that was an RX4).

 

As much as I like the early Mazda rotary's I do think they were behind the S30z in terms of handling, build quality, overall engineering (apart from the motor which was pretty extraordinary) and looks.

[gilltech]

Well compared to the '60s/70s Mustangs I know, IMO the S30 bodyshell was a closer fit, closer tolerances, smaller panel gaps etc.

Neater detailing overall. But I think the '70s-era 911s were quite a bit better again in that respect.

There's always been lots of talk about the Japanese manufacturers in the early days copying those of other countries & not being innovative. But I think that a bit unfair. They were innovative in many ways & IMO were much quicker to see the advantages of better quality control than many existing manufacturers.

[smugley]

Having owned a couple of 1965 911,s  I  can easily say that the Porsche was miles ahead on build quality panel gaps , fit and finish . They were hand made and were a premium product and priced accordingly.  The only thing Nissan was on par with Porsche was with their rust proofing ????.

[gav240z]

That's the 1 thing that impressed me with the Porsche 944 there's a solid door clunk when you shut it. I think Porsche's have always had that solid feel.Build quality has always been good.

 

1:33 here.

 

I think something that makes comparison's in retrospect really difficult is that with the S30z how many were well maintained all these years? How many have had dodgy repairs done, bushings, rubbers, trim not replaced etc.. Flogged out door hinges, or poorly repaired and aligned panels? A lot.

 

In my opinion if you see a properly restored S30z they are very good and very well engineered and solid. They don't have the rattles that a lot of cars now have developed.

 

Funny thing about the 911 and the S30z's is that they tend to rust in the same spots. Doglegs, sills, boot / bonnet / floors etc..

[260DET]

The US race experience with the S30 is very instructive I think, when they first got hold of the 240 they found that it was race ready in standard form and capable of beating all the competition, including Porsche. They also found that the difference in handling between the Zed and the Fairlady Sports significant which indicates that the S30 was a big step forward for Nissan.

 

In my experience the Zed is mechanically superior to the euros of the time but inferior body wise. I'm not an engineer but suggest that the S30 is a fine example of simple but effective and thorough automotive engineering, one of the very best.

[George]

How do the engines compare between the 911's and the S30's?

[HS30-H]

The US race experience with the S30 is very instructive I think, when they first got hold of the 240 they found that it was race ready in standard form and capable of beating all the competition, including Porsche. They also found that the difference in handling between the Zed and the Fairlady Sports significant which indicates that the S30 was a big step forward for Nissan.

 

I'm not sure how seriously to take the above statements. Are we supposed to believe that the HLS30-U, with a 4-speed wide ratio transmission and 3.364:1 open diff, soft springing and damping (with no rear ARB) and 'slow' steering rack ratio was "race ready"? It sounds more like an advertising slogan than anything else. In order to be competitive, the cars had a lot of work put into them.

 

And with nearly 10 years of development (of the company and its design and engineering, let alone the country...) between the SP310 and the S30 I should jolly well hope there was a big step forward too. The cars were completely different concepts (separate chassis, open-topped sportster developed from small sedan vs monocoque/unibody, closed coupe with its own platform) so it's natural that they'd be different. They represent different decades.

 

 

Any assessment of Nissan vs other manufacturers in the 1970s either has to take into account all of Nissan's activities at that point, or just focus on the quality of some of the product (so, just the S30-series Z for us here?). It has to include - for example - the fact that they were collaborating with the Japanese national space exploration agency on a rocket program (satellite launches) at their Ogikubo facility, as well as making ice cream trucks, fairground rides and textile weaving looms. By 1970, Nissan had become a bewilderingly diverse industrial powerhouse, whilst still retaining quite a lot of its post-war 'make do and mend' philosophy. They were using computers to design and test their products, but - in some cases - they were housed in corrugated iron sheds...  

Edited August 25, 2015 by HS30-H

[George]

I'm happy to prepay my $50 for your history book... Please tell me you're considering writing it...?

[C.A.R.]

I'm happy to prepay my $50 for your history book... Please tell me you're considering writing it...?

 

I would think a forklift would be required to move a Tome of that magnitude.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Lurch ™

[gav240z]

I think Alan is too humble to write a book and put his name on it. Or perhaps he is hoping Mr. Yoshihiko Matsuo will write 1 himself?

[HS30-H]

I think Alan is too humble to write a book and put his name on it. Or perhaps he is hoping Mr. Yoshihiko Matsuo will write 1 himself?

 

Matsuo has already collaborated on a book ('Fairlady Z Story', published by MIKI Press in 1999) and it's a bit of a curate's egg. They tried to make it appeal to an international market by twisting the stories and captions, which weakened it overall in my opinion. It also allowed people to misconstrue a lot of details and spread the mistakes around like a virus (see zhome for that...).

 

Hitoshi Uemura (chief mechanical/drivetrain engineer on the S30-series Z project) recently had a book published ('Fairlady Z Kaihatsu No Kiroku', published by Tokyo Tosho Shuppan and ISBN 978-4-86223-747-7) which is interesting, but again tends to pander to the layman by giving too much space over to Nissan's history and all that stuff which can be found elsewhere.

 

The racing scene alone, in fact the story of the factory Works race & rally cars alone, would itself make a pretty big and interesting book. Probably won't happen though.

 

The topic of the S30-series Z is too much for one book, really. Impossible to be as comprehensive as you'd want to be, and pointless not to go into depth about certain aspects of it all. Nobody would want to publish it, and nobody would want to buy it anyway.

 

Z people - generally speaking - don't 'do' books....

[260DET]

I'm not sure how seriously to take the above statements. Are we supposed to believe that the HLS30-U, with a 4-speed wide ratio transmission and 3.364:1 open diff, soft springing and damping (with no rear ARB) and 'slow' steering rack ratio was "race ready"? It sounds more like an advertising slogan than anything else. In order to be competitive, the cars had a lot of work put into them.

 

And with nearly 10 years of development (of the company and its design and engineering, let alone the country...) between the SP310 and the S30 I should jolly well hope there was a big step forward too. The cars were completely different concepts (separate chassis, open-topped sportster developed from small sedan vs monocoque/unibody, closed coupe with its own platform) so it's natural that they'd be different. They represent different decades...........................................................

..  

 

 

 

 

My SP310 comment was included because both it and the S30 were raced and while the difference between the two is of course obvious that does not lessen the favourable impact the S30 had on former SP310 racers when first rolled out in standard form for racing. As with any car for racing it was immediately prepared for that purpose and continuously improved but the point worth noting is the suitability of the S30 for racing in the first place. An indicator of that is that a S30 could be bought and prepared for the cost of a new unprepared Porsche and the fact that a S30 can still be  competitive against modern cars with similar power, preferably lots more than standard 

Edited August 26, 2015 by 260DET