Production Sports Cars, race the Zed?

[Mike260LW]

Evidence Richard. Find an owner who has a sales invoice for an S30 with rims and tyres wider than standard. Add triple webers and big brakes while you are at it. I think your comment is unfounded and unfair. Historically, I think there have been very assertive Group S Datsun Zed campaigners pushing the barrow for better tyres and brakes but no one can produce the evidence. The silver Zed Rob and John were campaigning as a sprint car was originally one of the gun Gp S Zeds in it's day. Rob still has a lever arch folder full of legal documents and and court findingsthat came with that car and it's log book, to try to assert the S30 cause. It's the legacy of a small fortune exhausted by previous Zed racers trying to gain some equity with the ubiquitous 911. One of the realities is that commerciality has sunk its parasitic fangs into historic motorsports and the "show" will determine and ultimately provide or permit a greater level of equity into the category.  The Group S cars of today (Including Datsuns ) are a shadow of what they were 10 years ago. For me it's the brakes that are the Datto issue. They are effing dangerous in a Zed which is now producing double the original horsepower than standard. But no amount of rubber or no amount of brakes is ever going to overcome the sheer grunt of a 7 litre race engine up or down the mountain. 

[260DET]

Of course I'm not aware of everything that previous S30 Sc racers have done to get improvements approved Mike but I'm very aware of what is required to really push the issue. As you mention, evidence, without something like a dealer receipt for the improvement in question it's a waste of time. I've mentioned this in previous similar discussions, how eg the US would be a fertile place to start. Once a receipt is available with preferably supporting evidence then the issue can be pushed. And if it's still refused then there are legal avenues available to appeal the decision. That's the sort of commitment required, anything less is a waste of energy.

[260DET]

Oh and on the subject of brakes I started a topic on HybridZ which came up with some interesting suggestions including a caliper fluid recirculation device. Freeze treated rotors would be on my 'must try' list though.

[Mike260LW]

Yes Richard there is an element of ground hog day with these discussions; but at the end of the day, a well sorted Zed is still a pretty competitive package - just look at Steve and Brett Smith in the ex Ja Lea 280Z at Philip Island the other week. I've been looking into the cryogenic treatment of rotors. Steve Smith runs them. They apparently provide longer rotor life. I've asked a lot of people about it but it's all opinion and anecdotal info. I haven't seen any quantitative evidence or test results to confirm or deny categorically what the performance advantage is. Whilst hardening the metal the treatment also embrittles it too. Is that a good thing for a critical component? I also had one metal treatment specialist who does cryogenic treatment tell me that heat treatment is a better thing to do for brake rotors. They do it for trucks and busses.  I'd be really interested to hear from any forum members with experience or who have experimented with rotor treatments. Tell me more about the calliper fluid recirculating device. Interesting? Mike

[1600dave]

Devil's advocate here possibly, but wouldallowance for  stuff like bigger brakes / wheels on a zed even be a good thing overall for the Group S category ? What do competitors want out of the category ? I ask as someone who intends to get involved if I ever find the time to build up my car.

Yes, it will be better for the zed owner who''s car will be faster with better bits. It may even start beating the Porsches. Then the Porsches will do some more "research", get more freedoms, and it will be back to status quo of Porsches usually on top. Except now it will be even more expensive for everyone as cars are faster, wear and tear is greater - a vicious circle of chequebook racing where he with the biggest budget wins.

Personally, my thoughts are that if you want to race a zed and win, you find a category in which it will win. You absolutely have to win in Group S, you buy the best car to do the job without remaining loyal to a marque / model. Don't get me wrong, I got into motorsport through my Datsun hobby, when / if I do get involved in Group S, it will be in my Datsun Sports. But I also accept the fact it isn't going to be a consistent front runner.

Edited March 16, 2019 by 1600dave

[260DET]

5 hours ago, Mike260LW said:

Yes Richard there is an element of ground hog day with these discussions; but at the end of the day, a well sorted Zed is still a pretty competitive package - just look at Steve and Brett Smith in the ex Ja Lea 280Z at Philip Island the other week. I've been looking into the cryogenic treatment of rotors. Steve Smith runs them. They apparently provide longer rotor life. I've asked a lot of people about it but it's all opinion and anecdotal info. I haven't seen any quantitative evidence or test results to confirm or deny categorically what the performance advantage is. Whilst hardening the metal the treatment also embrittles it too. Is that a good thing for a critical component? I also had one metal treatment specialist who does cryogenic treatment tell me that heat treatment is a better thing to do for brake rotors. They do it for trucks and busses.  I'd be really interested to hear from any forum members with experience or who have experimented with rotor treatments. Tell me more about the calliper fluid recirculating device. Interesting? Mike

Here is the HybridZ link Mike https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/129665-historicvintage-race-standard-brakes/  pick the eyes out of it of course. I do recall finding a cryogenic brake rotor treatment site that of course talked them up, if the tests referred to are good there would be some advantage for your use. There are all sorts of metal treatments available of course, if anyone has relevant info on them it would be the Porsche cabal, perhaps ask them LOL.

[260DET]

5 hours ago, 1600dave said:

Devil's advocate here possibly, but wouldallowance for  stuff like bigger brakes / wheels on a zed even be a good thing overall for the Group S category ? What do competitors want out of the category ? I ask as someone who intends to get involved if I ever find the time to build up my car.

Yes, it will be better for the zed owner who''s car will be faster with better bits. It may even start beating the Porsches. Then the Porsches will do some more "research", get more freedoms, and it will be back to status quo of Porsches usually on top. Except now it will be even more expensive for everyone as cars are faster, wear and tear is greater - a vicious circle of chequebook racing where he with the biggest budget wins.

Personally, my thoughts are that if you want to race a zed and win, you find a category in which it will win. You absolutely have to win in Group S, you buy the best car to do the job without remaining loyal to a marque / model. Don't get me wrong, I got into motorsport through my Datsun hobby, when / if I do get involved in Group S, it will be in my Datsun Sports. But I also accept the fact it isn't going to be a consistent front runner.

As far as S30's go, tyres and brakes could be a safety issue, perhaps it's only restrained driving that has avoided a crash so far caused by tyre or brake failure due to over heating. From that point of view it seems more sensible that tyre and brake sizes be determined by car weights which would do nothing to damage the 'historic' aspect of Sc.

[hmd]

On 3/16/2019 at 12:51 PM, 1600dave said:

Personally, my thoughts are that if you want to race a zed and win, you find a category in which it will win. You absolutely have to win in Group S, you buy the best car to do the job without remaining loyal to a marque / model. Don't get me wrong, I got into motorsport through my Datsun hobby, when / if I do get involved in Group S, it will be in my Datsun Sports. But I also accept the fact it isn't going to be a consistent front runner.

Couldn't have said the bold bit better myself.

 

BTW the datsun roadster of John Giest is killing it in the Sb under 2L category.

[PZG302]

On 3/15/2019 at 10:13 AM, hmd said:

 

it doesn't matter though, James Flett can get plenty power out of these engines.

What we need is more tyre and brake. we run 195/60 tyres whereas the 911 run 225/50 on the rears and the Vette and Pantera even wider tyres.

That's the beauty of Nissan/Datsun......

 

The homologation documents don't mention cast numbers for the manifolds, nor do they have many details on the throttle body. The N47 inlet manifold does come off a L28, but I have absolutely no idea which one..... It is not your usual L28DET manifold, and as I have said previously I have only ever seen one other. 

 

The manifold to avoid is the NAPS manifold with the twin butterfly throttle body. The twin butterflies combined area is actually smaller than the more usual single ones and the airflow is disrupted, especially at higher speed running of the engine.

[Brett240]

On 3/16/2019 at 12:51 PM, 1600dave said:

Devil's advocate here possibly, but wouldallowance for  stuff like bigger brakes / wheels on a zed even be a good thing overall for the Group S category ? What do competitors want out of the category ?

205/50' 15's would mean we can get a whole meet out of a set of tyres = cheaper. 

'run on' brakes ( say from an S31 ), or Z432R spec would mean we'd stop warping and replacing discs. 

it is what it is though,  gotta suck it up and concentrate on your driving to beat as many porkers as possible. 

[hmd]

12 hours ago, Brett240 said:

 

it is what it is though,  gotta suck it up and concentrate on your driving to beat as many porkers as possible. 

haha that's the way.