Racing A V8 Modified Four Seat Coupe?

[260DET]

Choices seem to between 2B Marque Sports Cars and 3D Sports Sedans, the 2WD floorpan variant.

 

2B - It seems to be accepted that the original spec engine is required although I could not see anything in the rules that said that. There is mention of what can be done to an engine which is sort of worded as if an original spec engine was being talked about but that's it.

 

3D - What sort of mudguard reshaping is allowed is confusing, they talk about 'flares' which brings to mind the usual bolt on extension which follows the wheel well opening. But then there is other wording which indicates that the original shape should be followed which makes more sense to me but that doesn't make it right.

 

Then there is para 4.3 which covers the transmission. Automatics are not specifically banned but there are various rules about the type of shifting mechanism allowed and so on which may possibly apply to using a sequentially shifted auto. Once again the rule seems to be directed at manual transmissions without specifically saying so.

 

If anyone wants to comment, yes I know about the 'if it's not specifically allowed then it's banned' rule but the problem is to interpret what is exactly allowed when something is specifically subject to a rule.

[peter t]

To answer your questions. GNFI.

[1600dave]

2B Marque sports :

 

4.2 RECIPROCATING ENGINES: (i) The cylinder head/s must be those that were standard for that particular model. The cylinder head/s may be modified only by the removal of metal. (ii) The cylinder block may be replaced by another of the same family of block, which is deemed to be one that: • is from the same manufacturer • has the same cylinder bore spacing and general configuration. • retains the same cylinder head bolt positions. (iii) The cylinder block may be modified only by the removal of metal, whilst retaining the original configuration

[dat2kman]

Why not 2F Rich?

Less complication!

 

Gawd forbid,,,, it seems that EmExFives are the go, i know f a very nce road/track car that mght be coming up for sale, but hetter to buy a ready prepped track car, just jump in and go!

[260DET]

Yeh I read that Dave, to me what is not clear is if the engine has to belong to the car originally . Your bold bit seems to imply that but there are no words something like  'the engine must be of the same type as originally fitted to the car'.

 

Jason, I don't take the easy, sensible way 

[PZG302]

Yes Richard, same engine and also rules about heads as well. Don't have the wording because still in the far east working hard.

 

Basically, if you were to run your 280 as a 2B car it would have to have the L series block and L series head. No turbo allowed, and then it would have to be standard turbo and manifolds as the old L28E from the 280 turbo. So if you want CAMS log book 3D sports sedan it is.

 

One reason I changed from the Zed to the S14 when I was forced to update the car. The L series was just too expensive to get the required levels of power to be competitive.

 

Give me a few days, I will be back in Oz Thursday morning, if you want to know about 2B rules. I have a terry towelling hat I wear when reading them and have been working within them for many years.

 

Oh, and most of your aero would need to be looked at to ensure compliance as well if you went 2B.

 

Other option is to run as 2A sports car, basically open slather, but you will be racing by yourself as you would be up against pukka scary sports cars, if they decide to run.

 

Got bored and had a look on line, here is the relevant stuff for you in the 2B rules:

 

Engine:

RECIPROCATING ENGINES:

(i) The cylinder head/s must be those that were standard for that particular model. The cylinder head/s may be modified only by the removal of metal.

(ii) The cylinder block may be replaced by another of the same family of block, which is deemed to be one that: • is from the same manufacturer • has the same cylinder bore spacing and general configuration. • retains the same cylinder head bolt positions.

(iii) The cylinder block may be modified only by the removal of metal, whilst retaining the original configuration.

 

So you are stuck with the L series head, which dictates the L series block.

 

Turbo:

SUPERCHARGING:

(i) Supercharging is not permitted unless fitted as standard to the particular model.

(ii) If supercharging is recognised as standard production for the model, the production inlet manifold and supercharging device must be retained as per the manufacturer’s design specifications. The boost pressure may be altered. The drive pulleys of a mechanical supercharger may be modified to alter drive speed.

 

And to ruin your fun on  the hot side for a turbo:

 

EXHAUST: For turbosupercharged vehicles the exhaust manifold and turbosupercharger must remain as standard. The complete exhaust system is free downstream of the exit from the turbo housing. For other engine configurations, the exhaust is free from the cylinder head exhaust port. The original exhaust mounting brackets may be removed and additional brackets may be fitted, provided that their sole function is the location of the exhaust.

 

Have to run standard turbo and manifolds on an L28ET if you want to go down that path, but then you get another kicker........

 

Eligible vehicles:

ELIGIBILITY: Cars must be derived from the Sports Car Recognition list approved by CAMS. To be considered for addition to the Sports Car Recognition list, at least 10 vehicles must have been sold and registered for road use in Australia with identical specification. Vehicles shall be classified as Class I, Class II or Class III depending on production numbers and production philosophy. A maximum capacity of 6000cc shall apply to all vehicles, save where a Class I vehicle has a standard capacity above that limit whereupon it may retain is original capacity plus 2%. Eligibility for vehicles with engine capacity greater than six litres is specific to a manufacturer’s year/model combination, and the vehicle presented for competition must maintain the manufacturer’s engine, driveline and chassis/monocoque design specification.

 

(i) Class I: Vehicles in Class I shall be representative of mass-produced vehicles, featuring fully enclosed bodywork, of which a minimum of 500 were produced world wide in at least one 12 calendar month period. Unless otherwise specified, such vehicles shall compete in their basic form for the model represented.

 

(ii) Class II: Vehicles in Class II are limited production vehicles, which do not comply with the provisions of 1.2

(i) above, of which at least 10 examples have been constructed in a continuous 24-month period. These vehicles shall be subject to a CAMS Specification Document which details the base specification against which freedoms permitted within the Group 2B regulations may be applied.

 

(iii) Class III: Vehicles in Class III are imported vehicles, of which a minimum of 100 vehicles have been produced in their country of origin and are able to be road registered in their country of origin. The vehicles bodywork must be fully enclosed and these vehicles shall be subject to a CAMS Specification Document which details the base specification against which freedoms permitted within the Group 2B regulations may be applied.

 

The Sports Car Racing Association of Australia (SCRAA) will make representations to the CAMS Recognition Committee on behalf of its members. The CAMS Recognition Committee shall be solely responsible for making recommendations to CAMS with regards to all matters relating to the recognition by CAMS of any vehicle as a Sports Car. Notwithstanding the provisions of Articles 1.2(i),1.2(ii), and 1.3(iii) CAMS reserves the right to include or restrict other makes and models, or parts from such, at its sole discretion.

 

You have to work out whether the shorty 280 is a class I or III 2B car, ie if non-turbo with L28 then class I, if Turbo 280, did they make a minimum of 500 in one year? If so class I, otherwise if over 100 then class III and then you go the nightmare of getting the specification documentation for the car. 

 

I was looking at doing a Nizpro 200SX, as it is on the list of eligible cars, and would have been a class II car, but with 3 months of research and annoying CAMS couldn't find any base specification to use and it was run in the GTP series back in the late '90's, so I am building to the class I spec. The nizpro spec gave me a much better turbo and other engine freedoms to use. The real killer would have been having to source said turbo and manifolds for the build.

 

Then aero rules would probably hurt you as well,as they are reasonably restrictive for rear wings and front splitters compared to sports sedans. I am looking at using a bird bath type spoiler, or nascar type spoiler rather than a wing on the S14 as the maximum height I can go for a wing is 250mm above the boot, the perfect height for all the dirty air falling off the roof and rear window. The spoiler will create a low pressure area behind it to "suck" the car onto the road.

 

So in summary, 3D sports sedans is the place for you if you want to run CAMS door to door and log book the car, or 2A, rules here: http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Race/RA15-Group-2A-2015-1.pdf

Edited September 21, 2015 by PZG302

[1600dave]

Yeh I read that Dave, to me what is not clear is if the engine has to belong to the car originally 

 

I took it as being original engine, but I guess it doesn't say so explicitly.

 

I was reading the regs just the other day to see where my MX5 fits in.

[PZG302]

Dave, the MX is perfect for 2F and plenty do be done within the rules to make is quicker if you don't want it on the road anymore.

 

Also, chat to Cal off PF his jigger is pretty quick and still registered, but not sure how road legal, he should point you in the right direction. Also Lou Iezzi in Sydney would be one the gurus for a 2F car, so have a chat to him, he is on the MX5 forum.

[1600dave]

The MX5 has to stay road legal at the moment (unless I drag the pushbike out again to get to work, did that for a year or two and the novelty wore off pretty quick...).

 

I got into motorsport through my Datsun hobby, have to decide now if I want to stick with Datsuns (ie Fairlady in Group S), or whether I just want to go racing (in which case an MX5 would be perfect, way easier and cheaper than preparing a Fairlady). I'm doing regularity in November with FoSC, will be checking out the various categories. I've never really looked closely at the "modern" categories.

Edited September 21, 2015 by 1600dave

[1600dave]

Just had a read of 2A - seems like Richard's would fit in there. What other cars typically end up in this class ? Who / when runs events for them ?

 

To my way of thinking, Sports Sedans would be fairly tough competition for Richard's car, they are another level of modified again.

Edited September 21, 2015 by 1600dave

[260DET]

My present thoughts are to leave the 280ZX as is for sprints and build another car for racing. Now have a big shed and am getting a hoist so decent facilities for a build are finally available, besides I just like making stuff and spending money

[PZG302]

Well if that's the case Richard all that goes out the window, as whilst sprint regs are loosely tied with CAMS catergories you work to the organisers rules. Not sure how Morgan Park does it, but QR rules are generally pretty simple number of cylinders, 2WD or AWD and do you have a haidryer?

 

For racing, then you look at what category you want to run, the rules, how much you are prepared to spend and then either do the stupid thing like me and build your own from bare shell, or buy something that someone else has done all the hard work with.

 

in term of sports cars, a well built MX5 to 2F regs will run from $10 up to $20k+ depending on model. In terms of engines, in Qld Gary Stewert is the MX5 engine guru and a gun 2F spec 1800 for a NB will set you back $10k or so for over 200hp.

 

You could also look at IPRA, big range of cars, but if you want to chase trophies, then big dollars, think Ray Hislop's Falcon, basically a V8 supercar on Yoki radials. But plenty of guys having fun on  the cheap in the under 2 litres.

 

A SR20DE powered S14 or S15 would go real well in IPRA under 2 litres, plenty of scope for some tinkering to get weight out. Turbos are a bugger becasue IPRA runs a 36mm restrictor, but I believe everything is free if you want to play that game.

 

As for 2A, basically prototype sports cars and Group C type things, not very many events for them as there aren't many cars running up here, mainly hill climbs and will be combined with the clubmans/race cars and maybe prod sports at CAMS state rounds. Basically, if one did show up Richard would be taking a knife to a gun fight where the other bloke has an arsenal. Light weight lots of power. The radicals and what not run as 2A or 2C cars depending on final spec. 

 

There is also the Hyundais to CAMS or QR specs, or get in fast and build a Pulstart as they will be coming to Qld soon. Disadvantage with these two categories is very controlled and there will be some panel damage in the Hyundais, less so in the Pulstarts looking at who is entering down south, plus the pullstarts can run in IPRA with a change of tyre.

[dat2kman]

As the ZX snt lgbooked. It will most likely be categrised as a Sports Sedan at any CAMS Sprints event at Morgan Park.

You'll be playing with Darren Sideens, Gary Ford, and the other sial Sports Sedan runners.

And yep, as I suggested on previous page, look at buying a ready prepped lgbooked car, and work on improving that,

That is what I did with the ex Bruce Richards 280Z,

[260DET]

It's not going to be anything too serious, I'd just like to experience some door to door racing while the brain is still working OK. The aim would be something weighing about 1100kg with 500+hp at the flywheel and a sequentially shifted four speed auto, that will not break any records but should be a lot of fun to drive. Could such a car be log booked for more than one class if eligible? Eg 2A and 3D.

 

I understand your thinking Matt for what you are doing, sounds like you will end up with quite a competitive machine. 

 

That 280Z of yours Jason was a good buy for sure but there are bugger all cars like that around for sale at what I think is a reasonable price. With what I propose $20k will get something basic, spend more for big brakes, fully adjustable suspension, race wheels..................

[PZG302]

Nope, you have to make the choice, 2A or 3D and never the twain shall meet. 3D would give you more cars to race against.

 

You would only needs CAMS log book and licence to play at Morgan Park in the state rounds.

 

Cheaper and easier would be to run at QR/Lakeside. No log book needed, and only one licence, plus you could run in a couple of categories, outlaws and sedans, and save Morgan Park for the sprint series so you only need the 2S licence, which will also let you play at hillclimbs like the Cootha Classic and Noosa, plus the street sprint events at Leyburn, Gatton, Pittsworth and Oakey, plus the short track stuff down at Stanthorpe, which is door to door.

[dat2kman]

Paul Williamson at Opt 1 has thrown together an el-cheapo??, R33 rear wheel drive Skyline Turbo, to run the QR outlaws class

One f those but prepped to a CAMS lgbookable class ( not group 2 sports) but either as IPRA, Or the more standard Touring Car, would be feasible.

To set it up as a Sports Sedan, under CAMS, does give you a lot more freedoms, and if you just ran it at CAMS/Mrg Park, in just the State rounds, youd be md pack with it.

It would?, also qualify to run with Callum, Paul, the Kuligs etc at the Outlaws events they do.

 

If you wanted to run group 2Sports, maybe a change to another manufacturer, Supra, comes to mind as a cheap entry level either 2F or 2B car, plenty get 500hp easily, they may look hysically fat, but could be brought back to your 1100kg tarhet, maybe?

 

Theres no readon why you couldnt get some old sh1tter import Supra, whack a cage in, a seat, harness, throw on some sems, whatever suspension mds allowed, and go 2F. They go bloody hard!

 

Matt, can you suggest other 500hp/1100kg "quick'n'easy 2minute noodles" potential build cars, from the Sports cars lists?

[dat2kman]

Oh, and keep the ZX us non lgbooked, at any MP sprints event you may enter, it may sneak in as a "non lgbooked sports car"

That'd give you more cars to run alongside of at a sprints group, than if they stick you in with their Spirts Sedan groupings, the MP Sports Sedans are non logbooked, but all get lumped in.

 

Just dont open the bonnet, or, stick on a couple of Nissan badges on the rocker covers,,,,, wait, wut, its a Q60 Infinity motor,,,,,,

[PZG302]

For 2F the supra would be too fat, 2B would be the go, a lot more freedoms and scope to build cheaper. But know of only one Supra that has run for a while and it struggled for reliability at the power they were putting out with the rules..

 

Z33's are starting to be built for 2B, there are two up here that play in the one hour races and some sprint rounds, but still costly to develop. They are running as 2B cars, A few writeoffs from flood damage come up regularly, but are still a bit porky.

 

The tighter the rules the higher the cost to play at the front.

 

A 20k prodsports car, you would be basically looking at 200hp MX5's, or what I'm doing in 2B with the S14. S13's aren't eligible for prodsports. S15's are, but still a bit pricey.

 

S14 in 2F, could work, but limited by the rules for the turbo, and will still be a pit porky, but should get down to around high 1100kg from the standard 1250kg once allowed interior is removed. Biggest issue would be the tyres, limited in width and diameter and maximum power from the T28 on standard manifolds.

 

Skyrine in IPRA will suffer from turbo restrictor, and I think too old for production cars, plus not a lot of production car racing up here. But built for outlaws at QR, go nuts. Paul's 33 boat has cost him next to nothing and was less than $5k to buy pretty much ready to play, he added some bits to it as he could, and didn't like how it was done. If it was me playing I would still have change out of $10k for a bloody quick car.

 

The best bang for buck, but at about double the $20k budget would be a little Ginetta for 2B, Very reliable and cheap to run, very fast and pretty car. Basically a near proper race car that can have number plates bolted to it in England.

 

If I get the urge for another race car after the 200, I will more than likely save the pennies and go one of them over anything else. The buy in is higher, but the running costs are just tyres and fuel for the year and the engine will go for a few seasons without touching it they are that understressed.

[260DET]

What's this Heavy Metal class? http://www.sportssedans.com.au/uploads/competitors/Group%203D%20Heavy%20Metal%20SS%20Group.pdfWould suit what I have in mind.

 

And, would a sequentially shifted auto be allowed in 3D Sports Sedans?

Edited September 27, 2015 by 260DET

[PZG302]

Richard, jump on the cams website and read the rules.

 

Took me less than a minute, an auto gearbox with sequential shift is fine, paddles not allowed though.

 

Yes your car will comply as a 2wd floorpan car.

[d3c0y]

I've picked up a JZZ30 twin turbo soarer for the 24 hours of lemons race which i will look at modifying to 2B  or similar. Reached the same point where the zed is to nice for full on track duty. The Soarer was cheap to buy, heaps of cheap parts available and a lot of stuff crosses over with the Supra.

 

Looks like when the motor pops I could probably run a 2JZ block and still be in the rules for another 500cc of capacity.

[dat2kman]

Is that mdel Soarer on the accepted group 2 sports car lsting that CAMS publshes?

[260DET]

Have been reading all the rules that may be relevant, camsese is a bit hard to deciper sometimes though. Anyway there is a log book bloke local who I should chat with, present plan is to start on a new 3D car once the Zed is back and track worthy, that's the first priority.

[dat2kman]

That'd be Peter Herlihan, fairly well versed in technical and scrutiny matters.

[260DET]

I've picked up a JZZ30 twin turbo soarer for the 24 hours of lemons race which i will look at modifying to 2B  or similar. Reached the same point where the zed is to nice for full on track duty. The Soarer was cheap to buy, heaps of cheap parts available and a lot of stuff crosses over with the Supra.

 

Looks like when the motor pops I could probably run a 2JZ block and still be in the rules for another 500cc of capacity.

 

Harry on PF punts a near stock one around Lakeside, got into the 59's the other day, with a flippin three speed auto lol. He is having problems with wheel bearings, might be worth checking that out.