Z432 in South East QLD

[be-zed]

Seem we have a Z432 in South East Queensland and it is the latest addition to the ZCCQ . We didn’t ask what it cost, because we all know it would be in the arm and leg category. But going by the list of Nissan Datsun weaponry that this Z432 is in company with, I don’t think dollars was a problem. The conversation for value for investment was interesting as there seems to be a number of Jap classic collects here now. The question was asked : why not the AUST 70’s mussel  car. It makes sense to Australians. But AUST 70’S cars doesn’t seem to have a worldwide market like Jap classics are gaining. After talking to James Flett and seeing what some Z are fetching .You have to start to ask the question.

What is the best investment dollar for a Z ?

Do we modify them to the point of changing them, that getting them back to road cars is impossible .

Change to the point the mechanics is not recognizable as a Z car.

Or just standard and or period modifications only.

What is the best return for your dollar?

No names Jason       

So with any luck we see it a some CLASSIC JAP SHOWS

[dat2kman]

This, and a KPC10  1970 year model Skyline GTR have been added to Brian's collection.

Far better than a z432 are three very unique one off original race cars.

[gav240z]

Really looking forward to seeing it sometime. I'm super happy to see a (PS30) 432 has made it to Australia.

 

In terms of worldwide appeal I agree it's a cult classic everywhere. It's my opinion that for too long these cars have been taken for granted and not given the proper recognition they deserve, I feel this is changing, in Australia in particular I feel they ("Datsun's and other Classic Japanese Marques in general) have a lot more respect now than they did about 16 years ago when I first got into them myself.

 

I am for keeping them as original/period correct as possible, but not in a way that makes them undriveable or difficult to live with.

 

I've noticed that certain parts for these cars are getting more expensive, in my mind the values of the cars themselves have lagged behind these prices.

 

A mint S30Z (Early version) dashboard is on Yahoo! Auctions for about $3000 AU, a pair of NOS Tail Lights went for $1,500 AU. NOS Fender Mirrors and Headlight covers (chrome) are big money also.

 

This is why I say they are no longer cheap Datsun's. They are collector cars, but it's important we still enjoy them and get them out and use them.

 

 

[gav240z]

This, and a KPC10  1970 year model Skyline GTR have been added to Brian's collection.

 

So is it a PCG10 = 4 Door Skyline with S20 motor (GTR)

 

Or is it a KPGC10 = 2 Door Skyline (Coupe) with S20 Motor (GTR)

 

Or is it a KGC10 = Nissan Skyline 2000gt-x (L-GATA)

 

Hopefully he didn't get the 4 banger short-nose (KC10) version through Edward Lee's Importer. LOL.

http://www.viczcar.com/forum/index.php/topic,5272.0.html

 

Unless he wanted the 4 banger version...

 

[Pedro]

Its all about supply and demand. There are still large volumes of 240z/260z in the US and in japan so imsurprised to hear such high prices. special ones (432-r) will always be worth big $.

 

I see s30's as a 'steady' classic - not like a 60s/70  aussie muscle car is to australia or american muscle is to america. long term - i think those will outperform japanese classics.

 

In terms of modifications i think as long as you do what the japanese you will not hinder value. E.g watanabes, R200LSD, triples, even L28ET isnt a bad thing. In fact RB zeds are respected and accepted in Japan. Japanese car culture is about modifyng so as long as its tasteful and done properly then you will attain buyers rather than scare off. All in all though body condition is the most critical element.

 

High level, in australia:

 

A big part of the problem though is more people culture, space, housing prices etc. I think whilst there will be less zeds, there will be a lot less buyers of zeds too.

Having the space for such a large toy is hard these days. A lot of people would sooner buy a modern sports and drive it to work (2 birds one stone). eg SS/wrx, whatever you want.

 

I seems the main customers for s30s is the japanese.

I see expensive parts more of a hinderance to the future of s30s. Long term i think aussie muscle will perform better price wise (purel in the aussie market);

[dat2kman]

There were two of the 1970 2 door Skyline GTR both brought in to Aus at same time,

One for said collector, and one for his mate, also a collector, and owner of a restaurant on Central Coast NSW.

The z432 came in at same time.

 

Now we start the task of getting approval from CAMS. To have it logbooked as a Group Sc ( post 1970 to 1076) race car.

[260DET]

Is he going to race it?

[gav240z]

But are they S20 powered or L-GATA based Skylines? Big difference in collectibility in my opinion.

 

You mentioned GTR, I hate to nitpick but it's only a GTR if it has the S20 between the strut towers, otherwise it's a replica.

[dat2kman]

Gavin, believe me, this guy only goes for genuine.

Yes proper engines, and very unmolested cars. All of them.

 

Is he going to race it? Well, getting it approved in Australia as a Group Sc car will definately have advantages for all other Sc Datsuns that are currently, or intend to race.

Model and specification/eqipment fitted run-on rules apply.

 

And yes, he's a racer. Flag to flag stuff, and drives hard.

[be-zed]

Gav, where is the incentive to get to you come and look for your self when we go round to spend the day with these cars.

[gav240z]

Gav, where is the incentive to get to you come and look for your self when we go round to spend the day with these cars.

 

I'd definitely be interested. Would like to meet the folks in Queensland also. Would be awesome to get some photos and perhaps do a write up for the home page on these cars also.

 

Wondering what colour and year the PS30 is.

[zed74]

I'd definitely be interested. Would like to meet the folks in Queensland also. Would be awesome to get some photos and perhaps do a write up for the home page on these cars also.

 

Wondering what colour and year the PS30 is.

 

If I heard the owner correctly - I believe it is "White"

[HS30-H]

There were two of the 1970 2 door Skyline GTR both brought in to Aus at same time,

 

With only three months of KPGC10 production and sales in calendar year 1970, I'd be very surprised if they were both 1970 build dates.

 

But then there's so much bullshit talked about these cars by people - who often have never even seen one in the metal - that anything could be said and it would probably be believed.

 

 

 

You mentioned GTR, I hate to nitpick but it's only a GTR if it has the S20 between the strut towers, otherwise it's a replica.

 

Unfortunately there are quite a few S20-engined replicas that have changed hands with the buyers believing (or, to be precise, misunderstanding) that they were buying a genuine car. There are quite a few genuine fakes knocking around in Japan too. I've been shown a brace of them...

 

And then there's the grey area of the re-shells. PGC10s, PS30s, PS30-SBs, KPGC10s and KPGC110s that became too rusty to repair economically or were involved in collisions which killed their bodyshells, and were re-shelled into donor L-gata type bodies. Most often with the S20-engined car's identity (body section with engraved chassis number, engine bay plate, all trim, mechanicals and paperwork) switched over and the original body de-reged and scrapped on the L-gata version's identity in order to make it all nice, neat and tidy.

 

A few people are going to get stung for sure.   

[HS30-H]

Now we start the task of getting approval from CAMS. To have it logbooked as a Group Sc ( post 1970 to 1076) race car.

 

Why bother with an S20-powered car? Do what Jim Froula did in the USA for the Monterey "Historics": Build a KGC10 with a 3-litre Rebello and a sequential gearbox, stick some 'GT-R' badges on it and enter it as a genuine GT-R.

 

If your sanctioning bodies are staffed by people who are as thick as the staff at SCRAMP, you'll be good to go. If anyone complains, you even have a precedent to refer them to.

 

Madness.

 

http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=24615 

[dat2kman]

Why bother with an S20-powered car? Do what Jim Froula did in the USA for the Monterey "Historics": Build a KGC10 with a 3-litre Rebello and a sequential gearbox, stick some 'GT-R' badges on it and enter it as a genuine GT-R.

 

If your sanctioning bodies are staffed by people who are as thick as the staff at SCRAMP, you'll be good to go. If anyone complains, you even have a precedent to refer them to.

 

Madness.

 

http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=24615

Alan, unfortunately you are not quite up to speed with the way the Australian authourity, under FIA works, along with the various Historic categories.

That Jim Froulas car would not be accepted in any Historic race group here.

 

I mention Group Sc, this is for Production Sports Cars, manufactured 1970-1976.

They do not need a proven provenance, or any race history, but,

They must be presented in same spec as they were manufactured, by factory, or, as they were sold, by an authourised factory dealer

( we have discussed this before)

If it can be shown that say a S30 bodied car, or variants of, had fitted certain items, as per catalogues/option parts, or it was built with certain parts, not normally fitted to standard cars, then this sets a precedent for what we call " model run on"

Ie, if say a 240Z had 7" wide rims, Sumi MK63's on vented rotors, then a 260 and a 280 in S30 body can fit these.

It cant work "backwards" ie  a 1975 280Z Fuel injection, onto a 1970 240Z.

 

It would be interesting to be able to test the PS30 variant, with its twim cam crossflow triple carbed engine.

 

Did these come fitted, by Dealer or Factory, with mk63's and vented rotors, and 7" wide cast wheels?

 

2 litre, then 2.4, onto 2.6 then 2.8, could then be allowed to run same cylinder head configuration. We have free bore size to carburettors, so 3x 50mm Solex's will be fine. Under model "run on"

The body shells do not need to be designated Ps30.

 

Should be fun!

[HS30-H]

Alan, unfortunately you are not quite up to speed with the way the Australian authourity, under FIA works, along with the various Historic categories.

That Jim Froulas car would not be accepted in any Historic race group here.

 

You might not have noticed that my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek. I don't recommend anybody tries what Froula achieved, and for many reasons. Main one being that it's totally meaningless in any 'historic' motorsport context. 

 

 

If it can be shown that say a S30 bodied car, or variants of, had fitted certain items, as per catalogues/option parts, or it was built with certain parts, not normally fitted to standard cars, then this sets a precedent for what we call " model run on"

Ie, if say a 240Z had 7" wide rims, Sumi MK63's on vented rotors, then a 260 and a 280 in S30 body can fit these.

It cant work "backwards" ie  a 1975 280Z Fuel injection, onto a 1970 240Z.

 

I have some sympathy with what you are trying to achieve, but - personally speaking - I don't think that referring to the spec of the PS30 (or the PS30-SB) is the way to do it. The biggest problem with trying to cross-pollenate specs between the HS30/HLS30 (and their subsequent iterations) and the PS30 is that they had separate contemporary homologation fiches and were homologated into different categories. As far as the FIA (and JAF) were - and are - concerned, they are completely different models.

 

It would be interesting to be able to test the PS30 variant, with its twim cam crossflow triple carbed engine.

 

The problem with that - even if it's only a theoretical exercise anyway (for the above-stated reasons) - is that it limits you to stock capacity plus the maximum allowed overbore. That means something less even than the S20s maximum bore x stroke combo, which is just around 2400cc (and doesn't last long like that...). It's something that was particular to the Japanese motorsport scene of the period, and it doesn't translate well to any international race series where much smaller, lighter and nimble 2 litre cars (almost all of them with 4-cyl engines) will dominate. And an S20-engined car would be a knife at a gunfight for most of the FIA-based race categories above 2 litre engine size.

 

Did these come fitted, by Dealer or Factory, with mk63's and vented rotors, and 7" wide cast wheels?

 

No. Stock (Magnesium) KS wheels on the PS30 were 5.5j x 14", and they had the same two-pot calipers and unvented discs that the HS30/HLS30 came with. PS30-SB had the same brakes, but even skinnier (pressed steel) wheels.

 

I have deja-vu (all over again...).

 

The body shells do not need to be designated Ps30.

 

I think you'll find that they will (the separate homologation fiche numbers ring-fence that), but I wish you good luck in trying. 

[260DET]

The problem concerning the spec of group Sc S30's seems more related to what the governing body here has allowed, in particular allowing so called dealer options. It would have been more clear cut and perhaps fair to allow only factory specs as delivered to the dealers. Depending on what a particular dealer offered as extras is a pretty chancy way of defining what is allowed, to say the least.

 

All done and dusted now though I would think, unless someone wants to fund a legal challenge of some sort.

[dat2kman]

The problem concerning the spec of group Sc S30's seems more related to what the governing body here has allowed, in particular allowing so called dealer options. It would have been more clear cut and perhaps fair to allow only factory specs as delivered to the dealers. Depending on what a particular dealer offered as extras is a pretty chancy way of defining what is allowed, to say the least.

 

All done and dusted now though I would think, unless someone wants to fund a legal challenge of some sort.

And therin is our issue.

Dealer options, vs dealer fitted options.

All we require is evidence that a single dealer fitted particular items, to cars that he either supplied, or supplied and sold.

Or Nissan Kapan, having supplied a car, able to be driven on public roads.

Whether it was a rally car or a road car makes no difference.

DT Dobie in South Africa, and a dealership in Woking UK, had, supplied cars fitted with items that were very abailable in the Option parts catalogues.

They may not have been sold to mr joe public, but they were supplied, admittedly to some well known names, but more importantly, for use on public roads, and registered as such.

 

An aside, Porsche 911's during period 1970-1976, were produced in Germany and were only fitted with 6" front and 7" rear rims. A single dealership here in Australia, then removed these, and fitted 7" fronts and 8" rears.

MGB's, were fitted at factory with the SU 1" carbs x2. A single dealer in the UK supplied a manifold and twin 45DCOE weber, letters were subsequently produced stating that the single dealership also fitted this new aftermarket ( non factory option) manifold and 45 dcoe.

The result of this is that here in Australia, the motorsport governing body, now permits all MGB and Porsche ( certain model) to use these items.

 

Other categories of historic cars are permitted "model run on" features.

Which has been invoked in some cars, ie inline 6 cyl 12 port heads, larger engine capacity in same body shell.

 

Others have "tested" this, and have come up trumps!

[260DET]

Yes, we have discussed this situation before. Obviously the full list of factory option parts would not be allowed, can't have the euro's getting thrashed by a rice burner now can we old chap. Still, the body in control of making and administering the rules has to act fairly and consistently, that is a legal requirement which they cannot avoid.