Application of body filler

[wally57]

Question for the panel beaters out there. I have taken my 2+2 shell back to bare metal and want to coat the entire thing with Rust Bullet. There are areas where sections of panels have been replaced and a number of small dents that will need the application of a thin layer of body filler.

Is it acceptable to apply body filler over the rust bullet or should it be applied directly to the bare metal before the Rust Bullet is applied. My concern is that every time you remove filler you seem to find the base metal underneath has started to rust.

 

Regards

 

Wally

[dazzed]

Hi Wally, im currently restoring a 620 its not very rusty at all but any signs of rust even surface rust has to be treated.  chemically it fights back at paint when covered , fact is you cant paint rust,  there are 2 types of rust convertor one is a corrosive acid and the other a covertor and sealer in 1 that can be primed and painted over when dried, bog wont stick to rust, and will eventually fall out, ultimately surface rust should be converted and sealed prior to bogging,,, not sure about painting the whole car in rust convertor, cheers have fun , give me nuts and bolts any day.

[Huw]

Would suggest that best way is (not necessarily in order):

- cut and replace any rusty areas (floor plan, battery tray, dog leg etc)

- Galvanise/treat/dip any removable panels (doors, bonnets, hatches, new floor plans etc)

- sandblast whole body

- immediately sand and prime (if there is a good quality anti-rust agent....might be ok, but check how it works with your other paints. basically, if you got it all right the first time (with blast cut and dip) should be no need to do any more converting. now just need to minimise exposure sp it doesn't get back.

- sand sand sand and bog a little.....

- sand sand sand some more and paint....

- once you are done....some people (I need to re-apply) oil the hidden areas where rust can appear)

 

but I am a lawyer not a panel beater so......Sirpent or one of the experts should know best.

 

Saying that.......none of my zed has (touch wood) had any rust issues and it was not good when I got it.

We started on mine by wire wheeling and trying to remove rust and treat with paint and other black magic.....comment that I got from the Panel Beater who worked on mine is to do it right in the early stages, so we blasted and treated it properly.

 

Huw

[tbscobraZ]

Hey mate first off I'm not in anyway a bodywork guy. However I'm going down the same rust bullet path as you. From my understanding rust bullet has to be directly applied to metal as it then penerates and converts and seals it. If you apply the bog first it won't be in direct contact with the metal thus making the product ineffective. The beauty about rust bullet is it isn't just a sealer but a converter aswell. So from speaking to people the order I believe to be accurate is: Strip back to bare metal. Then cut and weld in new metal anywhere there is holes. [ Because it is a coating and you need metal there to coat. Next apply the rust bullet to area/s. Then after it has cured fill and sand back till the body is straight. Prep for paint eg more sanding till straight. Then Paint. That was my understanding allthough ill probably blast my shell and panels first which will remove any rust then apply the Rust Bullet the people who make the product say it can be applied directly over rust. If in doubt contact the guy on ebay who is selling it and/or visit the website. Hope this helps.

[wally57]

Yeah I was initially lead to believe that the process you described was the way to go as well, and that was my plan. Since then though I have had a number of experienced panel beaters tell me that the filler won't stick to the bullet coated surface which is what has prompted my asking the question. I have put a lot of time and money into getting this far and don't want to stuff it up.

 

Wally

[tbscobraZ]

I did some more research for you and they have a new website which is : http://www.ppconline.com.au/. Also from the site, I quote "The surface should be wet sanded with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the desired automotive finish paint. Always follow the finish paints manufacturer's recommendations on primers and sealers. Recommended primers may be applied directly to a scuffed up Rust Bullet surface." Just go the the automotive tab. All the best. Tom.

[tbscobraZ]

I think this answers your question a little more directly "Yes. Body fillers, fiberglass, and automotive primers may be applied directly over Rust Bullet. Two coats of Rust Bullet should be applied to the metal surface. The body filler, fiberglass, or primer should be applied directly over the second coat of Rust Bullet between 24 to 48 hours. If more than 72 hours have lapsed, the Rust Bullet coating should be etched with Rust Bullet® Metal Blast (simply spray it on, wait 15-30 minutes, either hose it off or wipe it off with warm water and a shop towel, and let dry completely), or sanded with 100-150 grit sandpaper, before applying the filler, fiberglass, or primer, to ensure proper adhesion. This 72 hour period is decreased in areas with higher humidity levels. After the application of the filler, fiberglass, or primer, an additional coat of Rust Bullet should be applied to seal and protect the entire surface. Rust Bullet can be applied over existing fillers, fiberglass, or primers after scuffing the surface with 100-150 grit sandpaper or sanding block. Fillers have a tendency to absorb moisture which will cause further rusting of the metal and bubbling of the filler if applied directly to a rusted area that has not been protected with Rust Bullet. Rust Bullet works best when it is in direct contact with the metal."

[wally57]

Thanks guys,

Louis from Pacific Protective coatings gave me the same information, but I'm still not sure about taking the chance with it. I'm leaning towards lead wiping the areas on the outer panels,

 

Wally

[Sirpent]

Hi guys,

 

For what it's worth,

 

As many know I worked as a beater, spray painter, shop manager and later as a QC Assessor with a major insurer for many years, in that time I restored numerous classics's and exotics also, and I have to dispel some myths about lead loading and body fillers.

 

Lead was used when there wasn't an alternative, and Ive heard my fill of claims by many so called restoration shops about how they lead load all their work as if it's the best alternative there is, let me just say its a load of Bollocks.

 

Yes lead does have its uses especially when it comes to overlap panel seams as found in "A" and "C" pillar joins, but if your not a craftsman in it's use I can guarantee that you may regret having used it on other body repair sections even if it did look a treat when first applied and rendered.

 

Today's body fillers are a far cry to what they were 20+  years ago, the mistake people make is thinking that you can mask and smooth out defects an inch thick, and I'm sure many have seen this type of application at some stage, however if used correctly, applied correctly and subsequently sealed correctly body fillers are far superior.

 

What a lot of people don't realise is that body fillers are porous, in other words if water comes in contact with filler the filler will soak it up and allow it to get to the substraight metal and "Bingo" you have a reaction, however if the finish is sealed after the repair process this should guarantee that there wont be any rust issues.

 

I've taken 20 year old filler back on panels down to the metal and it looked the same as it did the day it had the application put on it.

 

If you really want to spend the time learning a true art, grab a throw away panel dent it and teach yourself how to use a cross plane hammer / dolly and flipper, shrink and file metal back into shape and if you can achieve this then the application of body filler in mm's as opposed to inches will be all you need.

 

On the topic of using rust bullet on outer panels, well all I can say is that the MDS sheet on the product states it's a urethane based finish, to me that doesn't sound like something I would be using to achieve a glass flat base for any painted surface.

 

So let the knives fly...........

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[zzzzed]

agreed totaly serpent john  i little extra work straightening the metal will also save you time in doing less whipes with the filler

[Sirpent]

Thanks Mick

 

agreed totaly serpent john  i little extra work straightening the metal will also save you time in doing less whipes with the filler

 

And thats coming from a guy who is still in the trade and damn good at it.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Zeddophile]

 

If you really want to spend the time learning a true art, grab a throw away panel dent it and teach yourself how to use a cross plane hammer / dolly and flipper, shrink and file metal back into shape and if you can achieve this then the application of body filler in mm's as opposed to inches will be all you need.

 

 

No argument here - its much more satisfying to do, and even if you can't (or can't be bothered to) metal finish it off, it doesn't take long to get a panel pretty damn close to original shape...

[wally57]

Sorry John I did not intend to get your nose out of joint with my comments, or question the information you gave me earlier via PM. As I said above I received a response from the Rust Bullet importer relating to a question I asked prior to corresponding with you. The response only came back in the last few days, but as I also said I was still not convinced and would not be following Rust Bullets suggested process.

Before contacting you I had spoken to a couple of panel beaters I know, and both told me they didn't think the filler would stick to the Rust Bullet,  but neither had any experience with it, that's why I contacted you. Your comments are what finally convinced me not to take the chance and act as a guinea pig.

I was probably a bit brief with my post relating to the lead wiping and did not explain my situation fully. There will of course be some areas where I will need to use a smear of filler over weld repairs and areas where I have knocked out some dents and other minor panel damage, but since corresponding with you via PM I have decided to replace both rear quarter panels to eliminate most of the rust damage. Consequently the major fill areas I will have to do will be the joins between the quarter panels and the roof, which was previously lead wiped so I assume will have to be lead wiped again. I have lead wiped repairs on cars successfully when I was younger, but also as a fitter working on turbines I had a lot of experience in years gone by re-wiping white metal bearings which taught me the basic skills required, so I am not phased about it or worried that it won't work. But what you said is dead right, it is not easy to do and should not be undertaken by anyone who does not know how to do it.

Your also right about learning basic panel beating skills, over the years I have spent a considerable amount of time working with a panel guys and sheet metal workers who have taught me to repair panel dents using slappers, hammers and dollies. And how to weld and shrink panels. These skills are definitely invaluable and no one should take on major body work unless they have developed even just basic skills in these areas.

 

Wally

[Sirpent]

Sorry John I did not intend to get your nose out of joint with my comments, or question the information you gave me earlier via PM.

 

Wally Wally Wally, Buddy, that's the problem with conversing via txt on line, it become desensitised and can be read the wrong way.

 

I didn't mean my response to come over the wrong way, I wasn't having a go at you at all, and if it was read that way please accept my apologies.....

 

What I wanted to get across is that there is a lot of misleading info out there, and the idea of this forum is to share experience and knowledge, believe me I have seen a lot of good honest hard work go down the chute because "so and so" said "Yeah she'll be right Mate"

 

Lead loading on panel joints is perfectly fine as I mentioned in my reply, you can now even obtain a metal based epoxy filler that works just as well (From experience)

 

Don't read anything into my response personally, you started the post and it has become a topic of it's own now so my reply was for general discussion purposes, I hope that as I tackle things non related to body work on my car and post questions that people will have the good sense to bestowe their opinions and solutions in those threads so that I can make the best possible decision, that's how I treated your post Buddy.

 

Right now in PVT Im discussing a new idea about my car with a few members which is VERY radical and am appreciating every last bit of insight into if at all its posible the pro's and con's ect, hopefully I will be able to reveal it soon.

 

If you ever want to discuss anything, don't be scared to ask or PM.

 

Cheers

 

John