BAT - Discussion on early Z car values.

[gav240z]

http://bringatrailer.com/2013/11/21/bat-exclusive-the-18th-earliest-surviving-datsun-240z/

 

Worth a read to see the differing opinions. Every time a 240z is listed on BAT I find that there is always a crowd saying they are not worth that much etc.. I do have to wonder why that is when many other marques seems to have an 'accepted value'.

 

Thought it was worth sharing anyway.

[George]

Great share Gav. Some interesting comments and some very puzzling ones.

 

Bottom line is the price has been on the rise and in 5 years time they'll turn 50 and things will get very interesting. Locally I see more wanted ads than cars on the market. The demand will only increase as the supply continues to fall short.

[gav240z]

I agree mate. I've seen more and more demand and fewer cars on the market. I think they are still the bargain classic if you get 1 now before prices get silly.

 

In particular I've noticed in the US price increases and that is the market where they are most plentiful. Lots of 2+2s still about here and 260z 2 seaters show up quite frequently but the original 240z's are very thin on the ground these days.

[d3c0y]

Let's hope the prices go up at the same rate i spend on the car haha.  :-\

[gav240z]

Lol if only that were true. If anything reading that article has inspired me to try track down some old owners. You never know may get lucky and find the old L24 block.

 

Another thing I missed first time is that car on BAT sold in 24 hours. I think that is a positive indicator as to what others value the car at.

 

Unfortunately yet again though they all think car this car is #51 of all cars made. But is that taking into account S30 chassis prefix cars or PS30's or HS30s. Funny I now see why it grinds Alan Thomas' gears (member HS30-H). Since a lot of discussions only pertain to a US focus and we all know they got the lowest spec cars with their 4 speed boxes .

 

Other market cars got a lot of better parts.

[HS30-H]

Unfortunately yet again though they all think car this car is #51 of all cars made. But is that taking into account S30 chassis prefix cars or PS30's or HS30s. Funny I now see why it grinds Alan Thomas' gears (member HS30-H). Since a lot of discussions only pertain to a US focus and we all know they got the lowest spec cars with their 4 speed boxes .

 

Indeed, Gav. It's a further annoyance when they start talking about "#51" ( Grrrr! ) as "#18" due to some spurious tot-up of "remaining cars" subtracted from "the Prototypes" divided by the number of cars on "The First Boat Load" multiplied by the square root of Mr K's birthday or some other old bollocks. It all starts getting really subjective.

 

Yes, Early Chassis Number Bingo is a game that some of us enjoy and '1969 build' cars have that extra cachet of fascination and mystique for some of us too ( late December 1969 somehow feels like a whole year earlier than January 1970 ) but it's not an exact science and the earliest cars didn't necessarily emerge from the factory at Hiratsuka in a completely linear numerical order anyway. In fact, there is good evidence to suggest that the much-vaunted "#13" ( Grrrr! ) HLS30-00013 - the so-called "First 240Z" / "Lowest Chassis Numbered 240Z" ( Grrrr! ) seems very likely to have not been on the "First Boat Load" sent to North America, and that cars with much higher chassis numbers - and quite possibly less initial faults and problems - were the first to arrive in North America, whilst some of the cars that came down the production line earlier were being set aside for Quality Control 'snagging'.

 

It's also interesting to remember that Nissan Shatai's records show that they made a total of 1,512 S30-series Zs in 1969. Of these, 543 were "Export" models and 969 were "Domestic" market models. It's also worth pointing out that those "Export" cars included a few 'HS30' models, and some 'HLS30' models that were NOT North American market models. So much of the "#13" / "#51" type talk seems to ignore the fact that HLS30-prefixed cars were not exclusive the the USA. If only one or two of that 1969 year build were HS30s and/or HLS30s for markets other than North America / USA ( Nissan's competitions department certainly had a few of them before the end of 1969 ) then it totally screws up their "First 240Z" / "240th 240Z" etc etc type counting.... 

 

There's also the '240Z Trumps All' type thinking to contend with. The term '240Z' means nothing specific on its own. When we are talking about production dates and figures, and indeed the concept, design and engineering of these cars, we should refer to the S30-series Z. That's the only way it makes sense as a whole. It's what the factory did, and it's what we should do. The largely USA-based conversations like you see on Bring A Trailer seem to exist in their own parallel universe, where the term '240Z' only means one model ( it doesn't ) and where other models ( like the S30, S30-S, PS30 and PS30-SB ) either don't exist or don't matter.   

[RB26DETT]

Slightly off topic. Alan, when I look at Japanese mooks such as Q Power and Nostalgic Hero, I often see cars with 240z style tail lights and the later 260z style dash.

 

Is this a factory fitment and what are these cars referred to, S30, S31?

[Six_Shooter]

While that car will bring in some good cash once it's completed, the $15K price tag is a bit much in the area it's being sold in. Fully restored higher number cars sell for that amount and less. If the car is being purchased as a car to own forever, then the price is fine, but as an investment to restore and sell, it's too high to really make it profitable, for most people.

[HS30-H]

Slightly off topic. Alan, when I look at Japanese mooks such as Q Power and Nostalgic Hero, I often see cars with 240z style tail lights and the later 260z style dash.

 

Is this a factory fitment and what are these cars referred to, S30, S31?

 

Quite simply, no cars made after the end of 1973 had the '240Z' ( S30, S30-S, PS30, PS30-SB, HS30, HS30-S, HS30-H, HLS30 ) style rear lights. So if the car was built between 1974 and 1978 and it has the early / '240Z' style rear lights, they are transplants. It's been quite popular in Japan for many years to do that, but even more common recently.

 

What we think of as '260Z' style rear lights were used on the Japanese market models from late 1973 right through to the end of production in 1978, on S30, GS30, S31 & GS31 prefixed models ( with a handful of RS30s soon re-called and re-designated S30s ).   

[RB26DETT]

Thank you Alan, that clears that up. So the way I read it, it is most likely those cars had the 240z style lights retrofitted by the owner and that the factory never made a model that had both the 240z style lights whilst having the 260z style dash?

[HS30-H]

So the way I read it, it is most likely those cars had the 240z style lights retrofitted by the owner and that the factory never made a model that had both the 240z style lights whilst having the 260z style dash?

 

Exactly that.

 

[gav240z]

It's also interesting to remember that Nissan Shatai's records show that they made a total of 1,512 S30-series Zs in 1969. Of these, 543 were "Export" models and 969 were "Domestic" market models. It's also worth pointing out that those "Export" cars included a few 'HS30' models, and some 'HLS30' models that were NOT North American market models. So much of the "#13" / "#51" type talk seems to ignore the fact that HLS30-prefixed cars were not exclusive the the USA. If only one or two of that 1969 year build were HS30s and/or HLS30s for markets other than North America / USA ( Nissan's competitions department certainly had a few of them before the end of 1969 ) then it totally screws up their "First 240Z" / "240th 240Z" etc etc type counting....

 

With regard to HLS30 prefix cars, apart from North American where did they end up? I'm guessing South America, but were any HSL30 cars sold in Europe also seeing as they would be LHD? I always see U.S based sites or eBay sellers listing parts as being 'Euro' spec when in actual fact it was also AU / NZ / ZA spec.. Did HLS30 cars come with 'Euro Spec' parts? Eg: The non-pollution balance tube on the SU carb manifold or the amber turn signal tail lights for example?* Do you know what countries the first cars were officially exported to by Nissan?

 

I have reason to believe that HS30 0004 was produced in 1969 also.

http://www.viczcar.com/forum/index.php/topic,13650.0.html

 

However my attempts so far to contact the owner have been refused - apparently not so good experiences in the past has caused the current owner to be once bitten twice shy. But for me it would certainly be worth getting a look at it to see what parts can be found and to see if there is any evidence (perhaps chalk marks under dash or on other components) to suggest it was built in 1969. The current theory on this car that I've heard is that it was a prototype that was quality control wise 'ready' and therefore rushed to Australia for the motoring press to test out, it was probably not intended to be anything other than a test mule. As the road test report mentioned a couple of minor items on the car were not working. Which would further fuel this theory, but I must stress this is hearsay for now.

 

If anything this makes HS30 0004 much more special than HLS30 00013, given how few numbers wise were produced of HS30 cars in the AU / NZ specification.

 

There's also the '240Z Trumps All' type thinking to contend with. The term '240Z' means nothing specific on its own. When we are talking about production dates and figures, and indeed the concept, design and engineering of these cars, we should refer to the S30-series Z. That's the only way it makes sense as a whole. It's what the factory did, and it's what we should do. The largely USA-based conversations like you see on Bring A Trailer seem to exist in their own parallel universe, where the term '240Z' only means one model ( it doesn't ) and where other models ( like the S30, S30-S, PS30 and PS30-SB ) either don't exist or don't matter.   

 

Totally agree, when you consider how special some of those other non-240z badged models are. To me the 240zg and 432-R models along with the competition rally cars are some of the most interesting cars around - especially when you look at their specification compared with the US market cars which in many ways were watered down (probably by the bean counters).

[Zedman240®]

It's also interesting to remember that Nissan Shatai's records show that they made a total of 1,512 S30-series Zs in 1969. Of these, 543 were "Export" models and 969 were "Domestic" market models. It's also worth pointing out that those "Export" cars included a few 'HS30' models, and some 'HLS30' models that were NOT North American market models. So much of the "#13" / "#51" type talk seems to ignore the fact that HLS30-prefixed cars were not exclusive the the USA. If only one or two of that 1969 year build were HS30s and/or HLS30s for markets other than North America / USA ( Nissan's competitions department certainly had a few of them before the end of 1969 ) then it totally screws up their "First 240Z" / "240th 240Z" etc etc type counting....

 

 

I would like to believe my HS30 #121 was built in 1969 after I read the above comment! That would be nice....

 

Not sure if it's a very accurate way to approximate the build date, but I remember the original seat belts have a manufacturing date... maybe the owners of #4 can have a quick look? They may think we have to strip the car to search for info...

[G]

I'm fascinated by the apparent desirability of a car with a lower chassis number than another - to the point where I can't think of another more trivial "feature" for a car to have.

 

I know that the 1969 debate seems to be repeated fodder for the forums, but I'm astounded that there isn't more chatter about the subtle differences found in non-export S30 models where there really is a point of difference, rather than hours of endless musing as to whether a car rolled off the production line on Dec 31 or Jan 1.

[HS30-H]

With regard to HLS30 prefix cars, apart from North American where did they end up? I'm guessing South America, but were any HSL30 cars sold in Europe also seeing as they would be LHD? I always see U.S based sites or eBay sellers listing parts as being 'Euro' spec when in actual fact it was also AU / NZ / ZA spec.. Did HLS30 cars come with 'Euro Spec' parts? Eg: The non-pollution balance tube on the SU carb manifold or the amber turn signal tail lights for example?* Do you know what countries the first cars were officially exported to by Nissan?

 

I think a lot of the "Euro" spec talk related to the early Z in North America is just a habit picked up from the early VW & Porsche scene in the USA. A good example is the nickname given to the plain vanilla ( no rubber strips / trim ) chrome bumpers of the S30-S ( 'Z-S' / 'Z-Std' ) Fairlady Z poverty spec model sold in Japan. They were also fitted to the PS30-SB ( 'PZR' ) Fairlady Z 432-R. They were never fitted to any car sold outside Japan - let alone sold in Europe - and yet the North American nickname somehow managed to become "Euro bumpers"....

 

'European' market model term is a bit of a catch-all really, and not strictly accurate. Whilst all LHD models sold in 'Europe' up to near the end of 1973 were 'HLS30' prefixed models ( and used the same sequential numbering series of the North American market 'HLS30' prefixed cars ), there was a list of differences seen on cars that were made for different markets. The Portuguese market cars for example ( imported and distributed by Entreposto ) were of a really high spec, had all the bells and whistles and even came with alloy wheels ( a version of the Kobe Seiko wheels seen on the 432 ) as stock equipment.

 

I believe cars were officially exported to France, Germany, Belgium, NL, Portugal, Italy, Luxembourg, Switzerland and several of the Scandinavian countries.

 

'Euro' spec is 'HLS30' ( no suffix ) whilst 'North American' spec - USA / Canada - is basically 'HLS30U' model and sub variants ( it's all about the suffixes ).       

 

I have reason to believe that HS30 0004 was produced in 1969 also.

http://www.viczcar.com/forum/index.php/topic,13650.0.html

 

Whilst it's certain that HS30-00001, HS30-00002 and HS30-00003 were made in 1969 ( Nissan said so ), I'm not so sure that HS30-00004 can claim that too. 

 

It's possible that HS30-00004 was part-made in 1969, set aside and then finished off in early 1970 ( there was a lot going on in the Nissan Shatai plant at Hiratsuka around this time ). There was a decision made to delay the production of the HS30-prefixed cars in order to ramp up the HLS30-prefixed cars to max capacity, and this - arguably - benefitted the final specs of both the 'Euro' cars and the HS30-prefixed cars in the end. Nissan spent a lot of time testing the suspension and drivetrain of the cars to suit Export markets other than USA / Canada. More 'sporty' springing / damping / handling was the result. They developed the aero of the cars a little too.

 

I think Nissan took the Australian & NZ markets seriously enough to not give them some sort of leftovers from the USA / Canada cars. They wanted to tune the car to suit the needs of the market and to comply with local rules and regs. The factory was flat out, working double and triple shifts to meet quantities required elsewhere, and something had to give.

 

So don't be surprised if HS30-00004 was in fact made ( finished ) in early 1970. The key point - and something that a few people have had to fight to have accepted - is that the HS30 ( and of course all the other RHD models designed and made before the end of 1969 ) was NOT some kind of "afterthought", but was an integral part of the initial brief, the design, the engineering and the productionisation of the whole S30-series Z range. Some so-called experts out there would have us believe that the S30-series Z story is actually just the USA market 'Datsun 240Z' story ( even Canada gets short shrift ) and that everything else is no more than a note in the margin. Which is ridiculous.