herrods Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Hey all, Having a small issue with Wilwood and some other Brake caliper brands regarding getting them engineered for Australian Road Rules. The Vehicle Modification guidelines state that: ""When Brakes are upgraded using components or systems which were not standard options for the vehicle, an engineering certificate is necessary to attest to the adequacy of the new systems." As you all know, this means that the applicable ADR's must still be upheld by the brake system being used. the ADR for disc brakes in NSW at least (not sure if its a national requirement) states that calipers must be fitted with dust seals, which are used to prevent dust from getting between the piston bore, and the edge of the piston. WILWOOD calipers do not have dust seals fitted, no version of the calipers do. im pretty sure MSA kits don't have dust seals either. Can anyone see/know a way around this? Or a caliper that will fit onto the AZC wilwood kit, or the MSA kit, that does have dust seals? I think DBA has dust seals, and the brand (forgot the name) that is a sort of sister company to WILWOOD has too. Apart from my tendancy to try no gettinga defect slip, if a bit of dust does get in there, parking on the grass, or near roadworks, or any other bit of road grime, it can score the side of the piston, which will leave you in all sorts of strife getting the brakes to work without sticking, either open or gripping the disc. Quote
sco_aus Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Well, you are right, they dont have dust seals, this is because they are designed to work without them. Can you imagine how many people would have been killed by now if they required them but didnt have them and it led to brake failure.... The fucked thing about it is, that RTA and the rest of them won't think outside their little cubical and see that it is fine. I have seen an actuall quote of the rule about the so called dust seals and from memory it doesnt actually say that they require dust seals, but the rumour has become so big, that the RTA etc think it is the rule or have bent it ot make it the rule. I will be trying for engineering with Wilwoods, failing that, put it back to Hilux callipers for rego... Quote
herrods Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 I see, How are these brakes designed differently so as not to need dust seals? Quote
sco_aus Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 I have no idea I was told this by a gent who designs and builds open wheelers here in Canberra and knows his shit. But yeh, to upgrade your brakes, you would think the RTA would be fine with it after engineering. Quote
NZeder Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 I believe the Wilwood caliper piston seal also acts the dust seal. However if you want calipers with dust seals rallydesign.co.uk have a wilwood caliper with dust seals not sure but I think they have the only right to sell these modified calipers from wilwood. You could also have a look at hi-spec calipers these are again a UK design so dust seals might be a requirement for their MOT too. They also do a rear caliper with built in handbrake setup the SVA range is a pure mechanical handbrake setup and they have others that I am not sure about as I believe they won't pass the SVA (UK cert process I think) as the mechanical part is like a little hydraulic handbrake setup in the caliper acting on just one piston on the 2 pot or 4 pot caliper. http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/ If I did not have my Brembo monobloc Porsche caliper I would be looking at the hi-spec billet4 and the SVA Spot Rear VW Lug for my zed - never know might just do that if my drum in hat setup does not work out for the rear (which it might not as there is not a lot of room in the back of the zed for a drum under/in the disc) Quote
chris240 Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Herrods has the car actually been knocked back ? or are you thinking it "may" get knocked back. a seal of any sorts IS a dust seal ! I hope your not reading into the wording too much.. If there is a problem with the "definition" and interpretation of the RTA's clause, have Willwood or their Aust representatives fax you a certification Stating that their seals comlpy with the relevant part of the ADR.. I agree with Nzeder, the piston seal IS the dust seal...just get Willwood to say it and the RTA gods will be happy. (I do compliance checking every day but in the Bld Industry...the principle is the same) Quote
PeterAllen Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Do some proper research and stop listening to and perpetuating urban myths. ADR stands for AUSTRALIAN Design Rules, not NSW Design Rules. ADR apply in all States. The term 'dust seal' is never mention in the ADR, it only state that "...the braking equipment shall be so designed, constructed and fitted as to be able to resist the corroding and ageing phenomena." I have spoken directly to the engineers at the RTA (not gone on some BS hearsay) and they have no problems with seal-less calipers. I suggest you get an engineer who is better informed and doesn't over-interpret the requirements. Finally. Not having dust seals is not an issue as long as you clean up the exposed piston surface before you press the piston back into the caliper when fitting new pads. If I wanted to pick an issue with a self-opinionated engineer I would argue that seals are prone to 'ageing phenomena' and fitting seals would be contrary to the ADRs - Let them argue that! Quote
Hunter Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Just put standard or hilux calipers on for rego, then install your willwoods once that is done. What cop is going to pull you up on the side of the road and say you do not have dust seals in your calipers?? Quote
herrods Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 I was thinking the car may get knocked back, after discussing the potential mods with an engineer, he was happy with everything until i said Wilwood 4 piston. Thats when it all fell to shit. Regarding putting hilux or standard on for rego, I want to be able to get it engineered, and if the engineer's certificate says wilwood/MSA, DBA or whichever brakes, and the car has on it a different set, then the cops will pick it up. I got picked up in my last car because I had the whole lot engineered, but the FMIC on the car was a Plazmaman, and not the "Hybrid" brand which was on the car when it got the cert. Picky I know, but the cops up the way I'm normally about get a bit that way. They will check and check and check until they find a bug splattered on the wrong part of the car, and defect you for it. Quote
NZeder Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Do some proper research and stop listening to and perpetuating urban myths. ADR stands for AUSTRALIAN Design Rules, not NSW Design Rules. ADR apply in all States. The term 'dust seal' is never mention in the ADR, it only state that "...the braking equipment shall be so designed, constructed and fitted as to be able to resist the corroding and ageing phenomena." I have spoken directly to the engineers at the RTA (not gone on some BS hearsay) and they have no problems with seal-less calipers. I suggest you get an engineer who is better informed and doesn't over-interpret the requirements. Finally. Not having dust seals is not an issue as long as you clean up the exposed piston surface before you press the piston back into the caliper when fitting new pads. If I wanted to pick an issue with a self-opinionated engineer I would argue that seals are prone to 'ageing phenomena' and fitting seals would be contrary to the ADRs - Let them argue that! I agree with Peter - technically there should be no problems so I would follow his advice and find an engineer who is better informed. Quote
herrods Posted September 17, 2008 Author Posted September 17, 2008 Where can one find the document that peter is describing? Perhaps that way I can do some more "solid research" Quote
Hunter Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 start with google http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/index.aspx The above is the first link that showed up on google when I typed "ADR" There is a CD-ROM availible for purchase on the site Quote
PeterAllen Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Try this and then select either Word or pdf. http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/7DEFC706A627E254CA2570C800837649?OpenDocument Quote
Zeddophile Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Try this and then select either Word or pdf. http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/7DEFC706A627E254CA2570C800837649?OpenDocument That's brilliant! I always thought the only way to get the ADRs was to pay, I could never find them any other way. Thanks heaps! Quote
herrods Posted September 18, 2008 Author Posted September 18, 2008 Cheers I went to the comlaw, an the ADR sites thru a google search, but got lost first time around Quote
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