What spring rates are you running?

[Azon]

as above. Also if you car in non-L6 or non-R180, please state so as it would surely affect weight destribution a bit and will require diff spring rates.

[C.A.R.]

For what application John?

 

Street, Track, Drags, Rallying?

[PZG302]

For the race car in the avatar I use 420lb front and about 400lb rear, need to go up to 450lb for front and maybe another 20lb in the rear.

 

The general spec is lowered springs on lowered spring seats in standard struts using Koni gas shocks valved to suit spring rates, welded R180 diff and L28 with injection. Car lightened, 960kg, and used for circuit racing only on 18" slicks.

 

For a road car with standard suspension type and L series with R180, personally I would look at about 200-250 lb springs, but I prefer a very firm ride very much on the handling side of the compromise.

 

From memory standard spring rate is around 150lb for a 240, however I could be wrong :?

[Azon]

For what application John?

 

Street' date=' Track, Drags, Rallying?[/quote']

 

Just curious what people are running in general, but I want my car to be set up for the track- dont really care about ride quality, but want the car to be able to be driven over the bumps as well...

 

For the race car in the avatar I use 420lb front and about 400lb rear' date=' need to go up to 450lb for front and maybe another 20lb in the rear.

 

The general spec is lowered springs on lowered spring seats in standard struts using Koni gas shocks valved to suit spring rates, welded R180 diff and L28 with injection. Car lightened, 960kg, and used for circuit racing only on 18" slicks.

 

For a road car with standard suspension type and L series with R180, personally I would look at about 200-250 lb springs, but I prefer a very firm ride very much on the handling side of the compromise.

 

From memory standard spring rate is around 150lb for a 240, however I could be wrong :?[/quote']

 

Thanks for the info. So you are saying that stock spring rates are the same front and back? And where do you order your springs from - I have had trouble finding anyone who would make a cutom set for my MR2?

[PZG302]

Thanks for the info. So you are saying that stock spring rates are the same front and back? And where do you order your springs from - I have had trouble finding anyone who would make a cutom set for my MR2?

 

From memory the rates are pretty close front to back.

 

The springs I use are Lovells, the guys that work on my car got Lovells to build for me at the right price. Some one who manufactures them should be able to sort you out.

[Azon]

Ok I have thought that I had suspension figured out and now after reading a few threads on hybrid Z it turns out that Tokico Illuminas are only any good for rates up to 250lb/in (~4.5kg/mm) - so I cant really use them with my intended setup (at least 6kg)... might have to go up in price and get konis :/... but to make things worse it turns out that there is no point putting anything over 300lb/in (~5.4kg/mm) in a stock chassis as the chassis itself is too soft :/ which leads me back to my search for a cheap rollcage which I did find (look here http://www.viczcar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=428 )but it might be illegal in Australia so still not sure if I will use it or not. As a matter of fact I was planning on running 8kg/mm (~448 lb/in) front and back in my car after having a ride in my mates AE86 with 10kg/mm front and 8 kg/mm rear and loving it.... leads me to think - is the AE86 shell really that much stronger and stiffer than S30??? Another interesting thing I have noticed was that 90% of guys in the US run stiffer rates at the back - WHY??? I thought our cars are slightly front heavy or neautral?

 

And question to PZG302 - I am guessing your car has a rollcage? How amny points?

[PZG302]

Ok I have thought that I had suspension figured out and now after reading a few threads on hybrid Z it turns out that Tokico Illuminas are only any good for rates up to 250lb/in (~4.5kg/mm) - so I cant really use them with my intended setup (at least 6kg)... might have to go up in price and get konis :/... but to make things worse it turns out that there is no point putting anything over 300lb/in (~5.4kg/mm) in a stock chassis as the chassis itself is too soft :/ which leads me back to my search for a cheap rollcage which I did find (look here http://www.viczcar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=428 )but it might be illegal in Australia so still not sure if I will use it or not. As a matter of fact I was planning on running 8kg/mm (~448 lb/in) front and back in my car after having a ride in my mates AE86 with 10kg/mm front and 8 kg/mm rear and loving it.... leads me to think - is the AE86 shell really that much stronger and stiffer than S30??? Another interesting thing I have noticed was that 90% of guys in the US run stiffer rates at the back - WHY??? I thought our cars are slightly front heavy or neautral?

 

And question to PZG302 - I am guessing your car has a rollcage? How amny points?

 

I run a six point cage and the chassis has been seam welded in the engine bay for racing. The car has been extensively lightened and is only suitable for use on the track.

 

The first question to ask is what do you want to use your car for? The 420-450lb springs I use are far too excessive for any road use. For a road car I would not really be going much beyond 250lb springs.

 

The tockiko illuminas I have used with 400lb springs, adjusted to 5 in the dry and for a wet set up dropped back to 3 but also with the front sway bar detached at one side and I don't run a rear bar.

 

Blue_Leaf, before you go and spend your hard earned you really need to know what you want to use the car for and then a suitable set up to start with can be worked out.

 

As for the comparison between the S30 shell and the AE86 shell, there is none. As an example of compating cars I had a 180B SSS that ran 700lb springs for the circuit, we ended up cutting off acouple of coils to lower the car to the class limit of 100mm and I ran about 6deg of neg camber on the bum because of it. A mate had a 180b SSS rally car, different use different set up, he ran only 300lb springs and was just as quick on the bitumen as I was.

 

The AE86 with really stiff suspension maybe an absolute pig compared to a S30 with 300lb springs, the only real way to tell is by the stop watch, not by feel.

 

Matt

[Azon]

Ok I have thought that I had suspension figured out and now after reading a few threads on hybrid Z it turns out that Tokico Illuminas are only any good for rates up to 250lb/in (~4.5kg/mm) - so I cant really use them with my intended setup (at least 6kg)... might have to go up in price and get konis :/... but to make things worse it turns out that there is no point putting anything over 300lb/in (~5.4kg/mm) in a stock chassis as the chassis itself is too soft :/ which leads me back to my search for a cheap rollcage which I did find (look here http://www.viczcar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=428 )but it might be illegal in Australia so still not sure if I will use it or not. As a matter of fact I was planning on running 8kg/mm (~448 lb/in) front and back in my car after having a ride in my mates AE86 with 10kg/mm front and 8 kg/mm rear and loving it.... leads me to think - is the AE86 shell really that much stronger and stiffer than S30??? Another interesting thing I have noticed was that 90% of guys in the US run stiffer rates at the back - WHY??? I thought our cars are slightly front heavy or neautral?

 

And question to PZG302 - I am guessing your car has a rollcage? How amny points?

 

I run a six point cage and the chassis has been seam welded in the engine bay for racing. The car has been extensively lightened and is only suitable for use on the track.

 

The first question to ask is what do you want to use your car for? The 420-450lb springs I use are far too excessive for any road use. For a road car I would not really be going much beyond 250lb springs.

 

The tockiko illuminas I have used with 400lb springs' date=' adjusted to 5 in the dry and for a wet set up dropped back to 3 but also with the front sway bar detached at one side and I don't run a rear bar.

 

Blue_Leaf, before you go and spend your hard earned you really need to know what you want to use the car for and then a suitable set up to start with can be worked out.

 

As for the comparison between the S30 shell and the AE86 shell, there is none. As an example of compating cars I had a 180B SSS that ran 700lb springs for the circuit, we ended up cutting off acouple of coils to lower the car to the class limit of 100mm and I ran about 6deg of neg camber on the bum because of it. A mate had a 180b SSS rally car, different use different set up, he ran only 300lb springs and was just as quick on the bitumen as I was.

 

The AE86 with really stiff suspension maybe an absolute pig compared to a S30 with 300lb springs, the only real way to tell is by the stop watch, not by feel.

 

Matt[/quote']

 

Thanks for your input Matt - its great to hear a viewpoint of someone who actually races these cars and is on this side of the planet

 

I totally agree that the cars cant be judged by feel and the stop watch is the way to go - sadly none of my friends outside this forum own an S30 so I couldnt really compare the cars' times. Could you please give me your PBs for any vic tracks that you ran on?

 

On the other hand I can hardy believe that the 2 180Bs with such drastic differences in set up were running the same times on hard stuff... I am no expert obviously but I would seriously think that the 700lbs care had something wrong with it - I mean if it was set-up for track the car should definitely be quicker than a rally car (which is usually a compromise) on bitumen. But then now that I think of it it could be the fact that the chassis itself started twisting (were both cars stock in that respect? or had same cages by any chance?) at the same time on cars (which is waht guys on hybridz have been talking about) and have not allowed the track car to take full advantage of the spring rates.

 

 

With my car I am planning to use it for street 95% of the time and track 5% but I could not care less about ride quality (cant be worse than in my mr2 anyways :/ ) - great handling is what I am after. But also I am only planning to run radial tires - no slicks for me for sure. So yeah no compromise set-up is what I am after

 

Cheers,

Evgeny.

[PZG302]

The difference between the 180B's came down to power and how to get it on the road. The rally car had a lot less neg camber on the back so the foot print was bigger, under the rules I was running I could not modify the trailing arms or pick up points enough to get back to a reasonable amount of neg. Alsao the motors were different, as I was running a L18 out to 2.2 litres and he had a L20B out to 2.4 litres, so he had more torque, plus gearing.

 

For the use you are planning with your car, I wouldn't worry about the cage, too much hassle in being legal.

 

Spend your dollars on the best suspension you can afford and a set of strut braces and look at maybe seam welding the rails and inner guards after that.

 

Running radials you will lose traction before the chassis stiffness becomes too much of issue. Just get someone who knows how to set up cars to walk you through the spring and shock selection and get you set up with a good wheel alignment.

 

To get the full benefit of a cage to tie the chassis down you need to incorporate all the suspension pick up points in the design. The biggest problem with the S30, and this is where the different feel from the Tojo will come in, is the length of the front chassis rails and where you sit in the chassis, near the rear axle line, this gives you the impression the car is oversteering when in fact it may not be beacuse you sit behind the pivot point of the chassis. This does take a bit to get used to when racing :lol:

 

The front rails are very long and can move about both vertically and horizontally, especially in a tired 30+ year old shell. The Tojo is shorter in the rails, hence less movement, plus you sit a lot more forward in the car so it feels totally different.

 

I have only run at Winton twice, in '97 and '98 and don't have any times available for those meetings.

[thehelix112]

So yeah no compromise set-up is what I am after

 

Does't exist. If its a legal street car, its slow and will get its arse handed to it by any well-setup dedicated track car.

 

Remember the video of two old OLD AE86s handing a BNR34 its anus on a track inside 3 laps? Case in point.

 

You say you don't care about ride quality, but `want the car to be able to be driven over the bumps'. You can't have both.

 

 

 

Also, it confuses the issue immensely if people just say `Tokico' and `Koni'.. What Tokicos? What Konis? I do believe both companies make more than one damper. And if you give me a friggin colour it confuses me even more. Koni have specific numbers indicating the series of shocks they produce, I don't see the need to revert to the colour they paint the insert.

 

 

 

</rant>

 

 

Take Matt's advice. Get reasonable street rate shocks, as good a shocks (with as must adjustability as you can tune/afford (8610 double simul adj, 8611 double indep adj), and learn to drive.

 

The car maketh not the fast lap times.

 

Dave

 

 

Dave

[Azon]

So yeah no compromise set-up is what I am after

 

Does't exist. If its a legal street car' date=' its slow and will get its arse handed to it by any well-setup dedicated track car.

[/quote']

 

Well yes... sort of... first of all no-one was ever talking of a completely street legal setup and second of all - a street car doesnt have strict rules to adhere to so can use a few more tricks when it comes to chassis development as well as the engine/gbox... to many factors - no need to oversimplify things so much

 

Remember the video of two old OLD AE86s handing a BNR34 its anus on a track inside 3 laps? Case in point.

 

Not really - havent seen it' date=' but I can imagine that situation. Really depends on the track though - a tight circuit with short straights will obviously allow 86 to perform better than they would on a track with lots of long straights.

 

You say you don't care about ride quality, but `want the car to be able to be driven over the bumps'. You can't have both.

 

I want a certain amount of travel in my suspension (yeah i guess thats a compromise) - thats all I meant, sorry if you couldnt understand... and who has ever said I want it to be comfortable?

 

Also' date=' it confuses the issue immensely if people just say `Tokico' and `Koni'.. What Tokicos? What Konis? I do believe both companies make more than one damper. And if you give me a friggin colour it confuses me even more. Koni have specific numbers indicating the series of shocks they produce, I don't see the need to revert to the colour they paint the insert.

[/quote']

 

Try reading the thread more carefully and you will see that I do specify what model of tokicos I was planning to use... And konis - well I havent completely decided yet so theres nothing to specify and no need to - as I just briefly mentioned the shocks, when really concentrating on the springs.

 

The car maketh not the fast lap times.

Ah?

[thehelix112]

OK, first let me apologise for coming across agro, my bad, no excuse for it.

 

What I would like to convey is that a street, even a good, quick street setup, will never be particularly good on a track. Everything is just too different. The conditions on the street are much more varied and incomparable with a race track. The street has holes, race tracks don't (or shouldn't!); street tyres are designed to last, racing tyres are not; street tyres cannot produce anywhere NEAR the loads on the suspension that racing tyres can; race cars do not putter around slowly, thus their dampers are valved differently than street cars.

 

On a race track you get rewarded the more lateral grip you have (little/no point going around a track with proper street tyres IMHO), you will never get anywhere near using this grip on the street (and if you do, you're being damn dangerous and will wind up flat).

 

Its just not possible to have a race car that drives well on the street, nor is it possible to have a street car that is as fast as possible on a race track. You have to pick one or the other.

 

Dave