Hello from Germany!

[thorstlink]

Hi AusZCar members,

I have discovered your interesting web page and would participate with pleasure in your discussions to get to know the interesting Z scene of Australia. My name is Thorsten and I am from the southwest of Germany, only a few minutes of France and one hour away from Switzerland. I own a Datsun 240z, series 1, construction year 1970 in 918 orange. Classical Zedds are extremely rare in Germany, anyhow the first series are absolutely known. As a TV reporter I had the honour to meet the designer count Goertz while still alive several times and talked to him about the history of the early Japanese car history. This meeting had kindled absolutely also my enthusiasm for the Zcar, even if I know that Goertz was not the designer of this vehicle, at most an idea supplier. Admittedly, I have for many years an informal relation to Australia. My sister-in-law lives in Sydney and has married there in summer.

Thorsten

[hunterzed]

G'day Thorsten. Welcome to the site. Its always good to get a different perspective on our own passions.

 

Steve

[Sirpent]

Begrüßen Sie Thorsten,

 

Sie müssen uns einige Bilder Ihres "Z" zeigen

 

John

[.]

yeah, welcome. Any chance you have or know someone who has driven their zed on the Nürburgring?

 

It is one of my life ambitions even if I know its unlikely I'll ever get to do it.

[pantah]

Welcome Thorsten.Im new here,too and an overseas member like yourself!

What interesting stuff did Goertz tell you....? I am interested on his opinion of the Silvia.............

Cheers

[thorstlink]

Thanks for your warmly welcome.

John: yes of course, I try to add some pictures. I imported my 240 Z from the US.  American Z experts helped me to find a good serie 1 with all their expertise and cooperativeness. Wonderful!

 

Galderi: I have been at the Nürburgring/Pfalz and it's famous Nordschleife several times but not with my Zedd. Every year there is the impressing Classic Car Grand Prix end of July. Thats really fantastic!

 

Pantah: I met count Goertz first on the Concorso d'eleganza villa Deste at Lake Como, Italy, one of the most important classic car events in the world. I had agreed on this thus with BMW, because I wanted to produce a film about him. Goertz told me during a long interview a lot about his life as a young designer who went courageously and on own initiative in the USA to make there as an industrial designer career. Apparently by chance he met Raymond Loewy at the Waldorf Astoria. He gave him a job. This was the start of the career. End of the fifties  Goertz travelled to Japan to get to know the bosses of the most important car manufacturers. His most important meeting, he believed, was Honda. He stood with the doorman and asked to speak Mr. Honda. He would never have thought that there somebody would appear. Mr. Honda did and showed Goertz the whole company. Goertz could persuade the Japanese to build cars which also hit to the taste of buyers from the western continents, above all from the USA, even if his first order was still a typical Japanese for Nissan: the Datsun 1600 sport (SPL311). Of course he has stressed over and over again how important his efforts towards a Japanese sports-car were. The early draughts and prototypes with Goertz design already had this fantastic GT form. Nissan had rejected the project after Toyota with the 2000 GT was quicker on the market. The project failed. The fact that Nissan sketched later a "cheap variation", thinks Goertz, is his salary.

When I met him, above all last, he was already more than 90 years old. I experienced him as a difficult, a little bit bitter character. Still: I will never forget the meetings.

[Sirpent]

Great story,

 

Now you will have to concentrate on convincing your TV station that a documentary should be done down here in Australia. ship your Z on a boat a few months earlier then come touring with us.

 

Cheers

 

John

[thorstlink]

Hi John,

 

I would love to do so.

At the moment I am happy that the good piece has got over the North Atlantic trip unscathed. Once more such an adventure does not stand my heart!

 

 

 

CheerZZ

 

Thorsten

 

[sco_aus]

Welcome Thorsten.  Its nice to have some foreign members with the same passion.  Your 240Z looks fantastic.  I hope you enjoy the forum as much as we do.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[Ben]

Welcome!

 

That's a nice 240Z if I do say so myself.

 

It is not often you see cars the same colour as ours!

[HS30-H]

Goertz could persuade the Japanese to build cars which also hit to the taste of buyers from the western continents, above all from the USA, even if his first order was still a typical Japanese for Nissan: the Datsun 1600 sport (SPL311). Of course he has stressed over and over again how important his efforts towards a Japanese sports-car were. The early draughts and prototypes with Goertz design already had this fantastic GT form. Nissan had rejected the project after Toyota with the 2000 GT was quicker on the market. The project failed. The fact that Nissan sketched later a "cheap variation", thinks Goertz, is his salary.

 

Thorsten,

I believe that there are many people who have met Goertz, and taken all his stories and anecdotes at face value as 'the truth'. You seem to have been one of them too.

 

It is enormously patronising to imagine that the Japanese motor industry of the early 1960s could not see what was needed in order to sell cars throughout the world. The phrase "teaching your Grandmother to suck eggs" comes to mind. Some people seem to think that the Japanese did not know what to do, when in fact it was already gearing up to do exactly what it needed to do. 

 

Unfortunately, without any doubt Goertz was a story-embellisher and exaggerator. He planted the seeds of stories and allowed other people to water, prune and tend them for him. When they flowered, others picked the blooms and made them into elaborate arrangements.

 

It would not be all that outrageous to call him something of a liar, I'm afraid. He certainly exaggerated the stories about his activities in Japan when he found that there was nobody who would deny them. It all sounded plausible, and put him in a favourable light. In actual fact, the Japanese companies and individuals he visited on his own initiative were simply being politely hospitable to him. Goertz would turn an impromptu afternoon visit - having tea and small cakes offered to him - into a "consultation" on his CV.

 

You mention his "first order" ( ? ) for Nissan as the "Datsun 1600 Sport ( SPL311 )", when I'm pretty sure that you are referring to the CSP311 Nissan Silvia. This is a perfect case in point: The main details and body shape of the CSP311 Silvia had already been penned by Kazuo Kimura at Nissan before Goertz even arrived, and Goertz simply recommended some alterations. History in the west wants to believe that Goertz was responsible for all of the styling on the car, and Goertz fostered that belief. And yet Goertz also dismissed that car - so he wants to have his cake and eat it. He did the same with what gets referred to as the 'Datsun 240Z' ( when people really ought to refer to the S30 range of models, as seen at launch in 1969 ) and - by association - the MF10 'Toyota 2000GT'. In fact, he didn't pen a single line on either.

 

Goertz may well have been dismissive of Nissan's "cheaper design", but it was none of his business to comment on. He had absolutely nothing to do with it. What you describe as a "fantastic GT form" ( Goertz would love your comment, as he thrived on people who believed his hype ) was really no more than early-Sixties zeitgeist, and the kind of profile that could be seen on any schoolboys' doodlings of the period. The 'Nissan 2000GT' was a completely different design to the S30-series Z cars. There is no direct link between them.

 

It's good to hear that you are pleased with your HLS30U, and I'm going to cheer you on if you start to make it more like the mainland European market HLS30 model, which was tested by Nissan's engineers on German roads ( amongst others ) and equipped accordingly with attempts to address aerodynamic issues, higher spring and damper rates, stronger anti-roll bars ( front and rear - when you might find your USA car not fitted with a rear ARB at all..... ) and a good combination of 5-speed transmission and differential ratio.

 

Above all, please don't forget that - despite all the "American car, made in Japan" type quotes you hear - the real designers and engineers behind the car were making a family of models to be sold all over the world. Some of the details on the cars were design concessions, so you might like to think about that when you reach for the handbrake lever, or feel that your right foot is getting a little hot 

 

Have fun! 

 

Alan T.             

[thorstlink]

Hello Alan,

 

thanks al lot for your answer. I do the best to answer in understandable English. Your words testify high expertise. I agree to almost everything you have written. And: My words were possibly ambiguous. I'm not of the opinion Goertz represented. I have quoted merely from the talks and his representations. His biography is stereotyped, his life-history sweeping over and over again. I am confident of the fact that Goertz has created many of his realities and he has edged out the reality about that. Schizophrenia. Unfortunately. I also indicated it: I have got to know Goertz as a difficult, self-opinionated person whose credibility is a delicate matter. At best in deference to his high age.

I contradict only in one point: Goertz has not started his professional trips to Japan to rush at the buffets of the hosts, but I'm sure it is a humor.

Of course the Japanese have knew how to develop the right feel. This is valid in special way for the activities at the US market. Görtz was an adviser, not more, not less.

Still: I have big respect for his life work. Who has experienced how he has reported with tears in the eyes about his time in BMW how proud he was on his 507, that forgives him for the pompous which marks his character in serious manner.

 

Thorsten