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Some more cool Z videos - youtube.com


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And another thing. So many of these Americans talk about "Cad plating" when they are pointing into the engine bays of these cars. But Nissan wasn't using Cadmium on these cars.

That's Zinc plating, either dull, bright or 'yellow'/'gold' passivated.

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5 hours ago, HS30-H said:

When I pointed out that his car is really not much more than a paint and stickers job, he told me that I was a "rivet counter".

Yes! Isn't that the whole f***ing point of all this? 

 

IMHO, if you claim the car your building is a replica of another car, be it successful rally car or Herbie the Love Bug, then yes, 'counting the rivets' is the point. You have to do a good job otherwise you can look a bit of a goose.

If you're not going all-in, call it 'inspired by' the real car, maybe put your cool reproduction Kobe Seiko wheels on, add some stickers, have your Aeroflow fuel hoses to the Solexes, but don't call it a replica.

Didn't Larry say he had been to Zama and seen the real car? Pay attention man!

Jeff

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25 minutes ago, datsunrally said:

Didn't Larry say he had been to Zama and seen the real car? Pay attention man!

He's too busy racking up the likes and subscribes man. :)

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2 hours ago, datsunrally said:

If you're not going all-in, call it 'inspired by' the real car, maybe put your cool reproduction Kobe Seiko wheels on, add some stickers, have your Aeroflow fuel hoses to the Solexes, but don't call it a replica.

It has actually changed a bit since the original builder sold it on Bring-A-Trailer in September last year. You can see that it was really only a skin job at that time. Any 'rallies' participated in will likely have been what we call over here the 'Natter and Noggin' type that are fairly simple, safe and fun navigationals. More of a social event than anything else.

The comments in the auction listing (some of them mine... ;)) are possibly of interest to cynical old rivet counters:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-datsun-240z-61/ 

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11 hours ago, HS30-H said:

The comments in the auction listing (some of them mine... ;)) are possibly of interest to cynical old rivet counters:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-datsun-240z-61/ 

Well, that was an interesting read! Cynical old rivet counters? Well, given I read all the comments (and the link to the classic Z forum), maybe I am.

The end result is I'm left thinking near enough will be more than enough for those that don't really know. They might well go on their way believing they have seen a fair and accurate representation of the 'real thing', even though the builder intended it to be a 'tribute' because he didn't really know that much in the first place.

But, I think if you're going to create a tribute to such a high profile car (could be any brand) then you will uncover those that know their sh1t and they will make clear the differences. The majority of those that don't really know will scoff and cry 'rivet counter'! 

The accurate historical information is important though; it takes years and years of research, passion and dedication to learn about these rare cars.  

It would be interesting to see this Zed after a few years of ownership by the current guy (can't recall his name) to see how much further it has progressed.  

Jeff

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It may be just a car, but I'm afraid BAT and in particular some of the S30Z members on there, tend to have a very US focused view of the marque and there is a massive circle jerk amongst some of them. You do get a few names I know from Facebook groups who are great, but there is a clicky group of individuals on there I don't have a lot of time for.

I suspect they are some of the same old usernames and handles from Classiczcars.com who would also refuse to see any other perspective of these cars other than their own.

It is just a car, but it's important to establish the facts. Especially at the sums these cars are changing hands for now. 

For the same reason that an R34 GTR V-spec II Nur and R34 GTR Mspec Nur are different cars that command different money, the differences matter, or in the same way a 1990 R32 GTR Nismo spec car (homologation) is different to a regular R32 GTR.

Or an SP FD3S RX-7 is worth $174k (odd with buyer Premium) and a regular AU market RX-7 (is worth about $80-100k today).

https://shannons.nextlot.com/public/sales/93139/lots/19457678

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The Americans most definitely embraced the marque the sales there eclipsed the rest of the world by a considerable factor, was it lack of supply or interest that sales were so low in the rest of the world

May be USA-centric is appropriate

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On 6/16/2021 at 2:37 PM, AndBir said:

Another from Larry showing "One of 37 Factory-Restored Z Cars"

Got to get those hose clamps facing the correct way :-)

 

Is it just me who noticed the owner sniffing a lot throughout the video. Must have been a dusty day lol

 

Also I have another question........

Did he say that his friend has chassis number 19?? 5:26mins into the video. @George do you know this guy? 

Edited by JDM-TOY
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37 minutes ago, JDM-TOY said:

Is it just me who noticed the owner sniffing a lot throughout the video. Must have been a dusty day lol

haha. I noticed it too. Could be a cold, or too many nose beers? :D

He meant HLS30 00019, George has HS30 00019.

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5 hours ago, NickF said:

The Americans most definitely embraced the marque the sales there eclipsed the rest of the world by a considerable factor, was it lack of supply or interest that sales were so low in the rest of the world

May be USA-centric is appropriate

You're just talking about sales though. It was always a given that 'sports cars' - as a sector - would sell well in the USA, and they de-contented them, piled them high and sold them cheap. All the other manufacturers were doing it too. Ask the likes of Porsche, ALFA Romeo, MG, Triumph, Jaguar and even the like of Maserati, Lamborghini and Ferrari where the biggest single market for sports cars was in the 1950s, 60s and 70s.

But volume sales-targetting is not the same thing as conceived for and designed for. Was the E-Type Jaguar "designed for" the USA? I don't think so. VW's Type 1, 2 and 3 sold like hot cakes in the USA, but I don't think anyone would say that they were ever "designed for" the USA in the way that we are always told - time and time again - that the 'Datsun 240Z' (they see that as Z Genesis) was "an American car, made in Japan".   

In the video, Randy Jaffe cites Carl Beck of zhome.com as one of the leading authorities on the "Zee car", but it is Beck who has been one of the leading proponents of that "American car, made in Japan" narrative. He seems to have taken Katayama's sales patter and NMC USA's advertising slogans as fact. We've reached the stage now where even Nissan Japan's press and promotions department believe what he comes out with, and zhome.com it is painted as the default English language history site for the cars.

Jaffe also cites Beck as having "translated" a book on the Z's creation from Japanese to English. This is just too ironic. The book in question was originally written in Japanese by the S30-series Z's Chief Engineer Mr Hitoshi Uemura, and was called 'Fairlady Z Kaihatsu No Kiroku' ('Fairlady Z Development Record'). A gentleman called Mr Yuichiro Motomura - who used to work for Nissan - wanted to get the book published in an English language version, and performed most of the Japanese to English translation. He then worked with Beck to USA-ise it (effectively a bowdlerisation of the original) to the extent that much of Uemura's original intent is - literally - lost in translation. I could give you a couple of hundred examples, but take the title of the book as one: The original was 'Fairlady Z Development Record' (clearly meaning the whole S30-series Z family as seen at launch in 1969) but the Americanised version was 'Datsun 240Z Engineering Development'. So once again we see 'Datsun 240Z' being painted as Z Genesis. This goes right through the translated book, and where Uemura was talking about the whole Z range (domestic models as well as both LHD and RHD export models) the text is changed to make it read as though he's talking primarily about the USA market model. I talked to Uemura about this, and he was somewhat nonplussed by it. He said that as far as he was concerned he and his colleagues were designing and engineering a car to be sold all over the world, and had to take that into account whilst doing so.

So the narrative is always "Designed for the USA", and yet the cars themselves tell us otherwise. Show me any compromise or shortcoming, and Design Concession' on - for example - an Australian market car? I don't see anything significant. Nissan went to great lengths to ensure that both LHD and RHD layouts worked very well, even if the drivetrain layout was - inevitably - biased to RHD. It worked because both LHD and RHD, domestic and export, were conceived, designed/styled, engineered and produced AT THE SAME TIME.

Sales figures are another thing altogether. Jaffe tells us that the 510 and the 240Z "made Nissan". This is as good an example as any of the fact that these people just have no clue what they are talking about.      

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36 minutes ago, gav240z said:

He meant HLS30 00019, George has HS30 00019.

But this is a perfect example of their USA-centric way of thinking. They don't really consider anything outside their own bubble. Tell them that 'PS30-00019', 'S30-00019' and 'HS30-00019' have just as much right to be called '#19' as 'HLS30-00019' and they'll probably tell you 'that's different'... In many cases they simply don't even realise what they are saying.

 

 

 

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Surely you conceive and  design a car for your biggest market then alter it to attract the rest.

It seem to work out ok volume sales to the USA nominal sales to the rest of the world

May be you have it the wrong way round!

Just a thought

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8 hours ago, datsunrally said:

It would be interesting to see this Zed after a few years of ownership by the current guy (can't recall his name) to see how much further it has progressed.  

The 'Safari Tribute' car has apparently been at The Z Car Garage and is in the process of becoming less of a 'tribute' and more something else (I don't dare say 'replica') which is kind of ironic considering all the "it was never claimed to be a replica" type protestations.

Here's a photo that has been posted of the new rear bumper bounce steps and exhaust system. Looks like the bump steps are pretty accurate 'tributes', but the exhaust hangers seem to have grown longer like Pinocchio's nose. What happened there? Contrast with my photo of the original car's hangers:

Tribute exhaust.jpg

71 Safari car- 172w.jpg

Edited by HS30-H
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15 minutes ago, NickF said:

Surely you conceive and  design a car for your biggest market then alter it to attract the rest.

It seem to work out ok volume sales to the USA nominal sales to the rest of the world

May be you have it the wrong way round!

Just a thought

At this point I think it best to refer you to the book I was talking about. Chief Engineer Hitoshi Uemura tells us how the '270KK'/'Maru Z'/S30-series Z project was conceived, planned and put into action. From the very beginning both domestic and export, RHD and LHD versions were part of the plan. Why do some people want to resist this as being fact?

Yes they targeted the USA for profitable volume sales, but that fact does NOT trump all other concerns. 

 

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1 hour ago, HS30-H said:

The 'Safari Tribute' car has apparently been at The Z Car Garage and is in the process of becoming less of a 'tribute' and more something else (I don't dare say 'replica') which is kind of ironic considering all the "it was never claimed to be a replica" type protestations.

Here's a photo that has been posted of the new rear bumper bounce steps and exhaust system. Looks like the bump steps are pretty accurate 'tributes', but the exhaust hangers seem to have grown longer like Pinocchio's nose. What happened there? Contrast with my photo of the original car's hangers:

Tribute exhaust.jpg

71 Safari car- 172w.jpg

Call me a rivet counter, but it's these details I love about these cars.

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18 minutes ago, datsunrally said:

The original car in question from some new angles:

Google Translate kindly tells us "This is a running video of the Safari Rally winning vehicle at the Asama Motor Festival. If you like 240Z, please enjoy it."

As the man says, enjoy.

First person seen in the video is my good friend Mr Hideki Matsui of NP35, who refurbed my KPGC10. He's ex Nissan Prince Tokyo Sports Corner, ex-NISMO, now independent but still closely linked to NISMO. He is local to Mount Asama, and this event is almost in his back yard.

It's good that Nissan and NISMO still use this car occasionally, but in order to do so - and partly for public liability reasons - they had to make some changes to the car. It's a shame, but I guess inevitable. I preferred it as-was, but there you go... 

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