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1969 240Z HS30-00048 destroyed. Seeking advice.


MrKaos

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Greetings Aus Z Car,

I write to announce the untimely demise of HS30-00048 a 1969 240Z. After having the car in storage at my fathers place whilst restoring HS30-00366 my mentally ill brother decided to stamp the roof in then push HS30-00048 car out into the rain to provoke a confrontation during covid.  When I didn't respond he had the vehicle towed to a vehicle crusher and destroyed sometime last year.

I only found out about it a week after my fathers funeral whilst commencing administration of his estate.  He kept the destruction of the car a secret.

After taking the matter up with the police for malicious damage I was told it was impossible to prove malicious intent or action so a criminal option was ruled out despite that being clear from knowing him.  I am still gathering evidence here in case some more arises according to police instructions. 

On advice from the police I'm now investigating civil damages however the issue I have is I am unsure just how much the vehicle was worth so I can determine which court (district or local) to file the proceedings for damages.   My understanding is the first 36 Z cars were crash tested which made HS30-00048 the 12th Z car to hit the road.  It was approximately registered around 1969 based on HS30-00366 being first registered in March 1969 (according to 366's rego papers).

The lawyer suggested putting these questions out to this forum before proceeding.  My questions are these:

1. Does anybody in the forum know a civil damages lawyer who has handled a case like this before?

2. It was stored dry and all panels were mostly undamaged. Welding work was complete and the floorpan had been completely stripped.  What would the approximate value of HS30-00048 be in that condition?

3. I have a track record of restoration projects (5 now) and HS30-00366 is nearing completion.   I had aimed to have HS30-00048 restored to concourse condition based on what I had learned by doing Z366.  Would anybody have opinions about what HS30-00048 would be worth in concourse condition?

4. Would anybody know of existing assessor qualified opinions of the value of similar vehicles that I could present to the court?


Any advice would be appreciated.  Thank you.


Sincere Regards

John
 

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Maybe have a look at the cars here (includes #48) https://www.viczcar.com/gallery/category/11-1970/

See if you can make contact with the current owners of the cars (unrestored as well as restored) on page 1 of the Gallery and use their vehicles to get estimates of current values.

https://www.zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/classicHS.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20190830033411/http://wazregister.com/index.php?title=View_ANZIS30_Register

Edited by AndBir
added links
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I don't suppose you have any photos of the car, such as around the time it was left at your father's place for storage or during subsequent repair stages? Very hard to value something unseen, particularly a project car.

Thinking laterally, have you evidence that HS30-00048 was fully destroyed, not just your brother's statement? So not hidden away, or perhaps it or at least parts of it not on-sold? He would surely have known that the car had a resale value of more than just scrap value.

Edited by gilltech
grammar
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Thanks @AndBir.  I had trouble with the first link and have reached out to the site admin.

Got into the next links ok and will get in contact with those owners.  I could probably provide some photos of 366 for this list as well.   Much appreciated.

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G'day @gilltech - yeah I've got plenty of photos of HS30-00048 archived somewhere as I was in the preparation stages of the restoration based on what I learned from restoring HS30-00366, which was my focus at the time.  @AndBir thanks for letting me know that the site admin has a similar vintage car would that be gav240 or Toecutter?

You raise an interesting possibility of having the car reported as stolen so I'll check into that as well.  I did check with the police for malicious damage charges but he was smart enough to avoid consequences there so my only remaining option is a civil suit.  Basically my brother was trying to provoke a violent confrontation with me when he smashed the roof in.  I played it cool so I could get the car out of there and when I didn't fall for it this is what he did to increase the amount of provocation. 

As for the resale value, that an incentive to destroy it as it causes more distress - which is his goal.  Cultural vandalism of this kind, even more so.  I rang the tip he claimed to have sent it to and spoke to the tip manager.  The tip manager did have a recollection of his staff discussing a 240Z being destroyed sometime last year and that it would have been treated as scrap metal.  I confirmed the timing by looking at satellite photos of the property where I could see the car outside and then gone around the same time.  I'm trying to get an increased frequency of photos to nail down the timing. 

 

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Your brother sounds like a nasty vindictive piece of work, a complete sociopath.

Surely if a person has an item destroyed that doesn't belong to him then that's outright theft and the police would have to get involved?

As your brother would surely have received a payment of some $$$ for the scrap value. If that's not malicious intent then what is.

Was the car in rolling shell form when scrapped, as in mostly metal, mechanicals, engine & gearbox included? or basically the whole car with glass and interior?

And how did he get it there anyway?

That's great that you have photos as they will clearly show what has been stolen from you. Not to mention the loss of an important piece of automotive history given its early Z heritage. Z owners everywhere will surely be shaking their heads in dismay.

Using the photos it's a matter of working out a market valuation as it stood when your brother took it. Rather subjective though I'd think as to its future value once restored. But no doubt both values can be estimated within a logical range using other cars as references.

 

 

 

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On 10/24/2024 at 9:43 AM, MrKaos said:

I write to announce the untimely demise of HS30-00048 a 1969 240Z.

Sorry to hear about the loss of the car. I had a similar thing happen to me many years ago, so I can kind of imagine how you feel.

'HS30-00048' would not have been made in 1969. It is certain that 'HS30-00001', 'HS30-00002' and 'HS30-00003' were manufactured in 1969 (factory data proves it) and possibly 'HS30-00004' too, but production of 'HS30' prefixed bodies stopped thereabouts and didn't restart until several months later.

I'm very familiar with the stories of 'HS30-00024', 'HS30-00025', 'HS30-00026' and 'HS30-00027' (they were Works rally cars) as well as 'HS30-00034' and 'HS30-00035' (the first two RHD 240Zs to arrive in the UK) and they were all certainly built around mid-year 1970.

I'd tend to err on the side of caution and call 'HS30-00048' a mid-1970 build. Cross-referencing the manufacturing dates and quality control stamp dates on the components of the car (if any are still to hand...) would help to pin it down a little more closely.

Doesn't change the valuation much in my opinion. 'Low number' cars have an undeniable cachet and HS30 #48 is pretty low, so it would make it more desirable to a particular cohort but it is difficult to quantify.

Beware production data/stories that pertain to USA/Canada market 'HLS30' prefixed cars being mixed up with that for 'HS30' prefixed cars. They are part of the same plan, the same family and the same production facilities but production was not constant or necessarily linear.

Hope you get the result and justice you desire. Good luck.       

 

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The key take-away from this is always have "laid up" insurance.

Most would have laid up insurance to cover the unlikely risk of a fire if stored in a garage etc. but in this case it was theft.

Not sure what insurance value you would have been able to get for it in its unrestored condition however I feel you are stretching it to try and claim the lost value as being the potential value once restored. But given you have cost data for previous restorations then that may assist in determining your potential 'Net' loss.

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On 10/24/2024 at 7:43 PM, MrKaos said:

2. It was stored dry and all panels were mostly undamaged. Welding work was complete and the floorpan had been completely stripped.  What would the approximate value of HS30-00048 be in that condition?

 

On 10/27/2024 at 10:49 PM, MrKaos said:

@AndBir thanks for letting me know that the site admin has a similar vintage car would that be gav240 or Toecutter?

Sulio (or Toecutter username) hasn't been on the forum for many years now.

But yes, I own chassis #51

I've been mulling the question of what it's worth...

Certainly a challenge at the moment, given the market for vintage/classic cars is definitely down - especially after interest rates have increased globally and IMHO prices are still pulling back for many cars. Half finished cars are also much more difficult to value, given it's hard to gauge what's there and what isn't.

Obviously the more solid and straight the bodywork and less rust the shell has, the higher the value. Along with all the early S30Z parts that are difficult to find, but it sounds like the loss in this case was the chassis, not so much all the associated parts that go with it.

IMHO and I find it hard to put a price out there, but I think somewhere in the $20-$30k AUD range may be where I'd value it at the moment.

But it's highly subjective and placed on Bring a trailer or similar, who knows what money it could bring?

Speaking of BAT HLS30 00051 appeared on BAT back in 2013 i believe, and recently resurfaced in this thread here:

https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/68900-finally-found-a-69-240z-51-time-to-finish-a-30-year-multiple-owner-restoration/

I feel like @George who owns #19 might also be a good person to ask re: value.

Not sure if I've been helpful?

 

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On 10/24/2024 at 7:43 PM, MrKaos said:

Greetings Aus Z Car,

I write to announce the untimely demise of HS30-00048 a 1969 240Z. After having the car in storage at my fathers place whilst restoring HS30-00366 my mentally ill brother decided to stamp the roof in then push HS30-00048 car out into the rain to provoke a confrontation during covid.  When I didn't respond he had the vehicle towed to a vehicle crusher and destroyed sometime last year.

I only found out about it a week after my fathers funeral whilst commencing administration of his estate.  He kept the destruction of the car a secret.

After taking the matter up with the police for malicious damage I was told it was impossible to prove malicious intent or action so a criminal option was ruled out despite that being clear from knowing him.  I am still gathering evidence here in case some more arises according to police instructions. 

On advice from the police I'm now investigating civil damages however the issue I have is I am unsure just how much the vehicle was worth so I can determine which court (district or local) to file the proceedings for damages.   My understanding is the first 36 Z cars were crash tested which made HS30-00048 the 12th Z car to hit the road.  It was approximately registered around 1969 based on HS30-00366 being first registered in March 1969 (according to 366's rego papers).

The lawyer suggested putting these questions out to this forum before proceeding.  My questions are these:

1. Does anybody in the forum know a civil damages lawyer who has handled a case like this before?

2. It was stored dry and all panels were mostly undamaged. Welding work was complete and the floorpan had been completely stripped.  What would the approximate value of HS30-00048 be in that condition?

3. I have a track record of restoration projects (5 now) and HS30-00366 is nearing completion.   I had aimed to have HS30-00048 restored to concourse condition based on what I had learned by doing Z366.  Would anybody have opinions about what HS30-00048 would be worth in concourse condition?

4. Would anybody know of existing assessor qualified opinions of the value of similar vehicles that I could present to the court?


Any advice would be appreciated.  Thank you.


Sincere Regards

John
 


You'll spend years in litigation, the lawyer(s) - if you can find one to take on the case - will suck up any and all funds you have now and after the case is settled,
and untimely the #48 is still gone.
Nothing good will come of it.

My advice: Finish you other Z, never speak to your brother again and MOVE ON.

 

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5 hours ago, gav240z said:

HS30 0004 is going to auction

It will have to be live streamed at the AusZcar Christmas Party ;)

Pity they have not been able to source the chrome trim for the rear hatch glass rubber.

Edited by AndBir
chrome trim
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> Your brother sounds like a nasty vindictive piece of work, a complete sociopath.

He is conflict driven, co-morbid and diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar affective.  Whatever else is going on with him I stopped caring a long time ago and have been gradually getting him out of my life. 

> Surely if a person has an item destroyed that doesn't belong to him then that's outright theft and the police would have to get involved?

It was a great perspective @gilltech and one I'll be following up with the Police later this week. 

> If that's not malicious intent then what is.

Unfortunately he is also extremely intelligent and calculating.  I can't prove mens rea or actus rea to meet the appropriate level of evidence to prove malicious intent.

> And how did he get it there anyway?

It was stored at my fathers place and well, let's just say that destroying Z048 wasn't the worst thing he's done to achieve this outcome.

> That's great that you have photos as they will clearly show what has been stolen from you.

I've been going through my archives to find them, found lots of photos of #366 in the meantime.

 

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> The key take-away from this is always have "laid up" insurance.

I did not even know such a thing existed @AndBir

> Most would have laid up insurance to cover the unlikely risk of a fire if stored in a garage etc. but in this case it was theft.

This seems to be more the case I am dealing with.

> Pity they have not been able to source the chrome trim for the rear hatch glass rubber.

This I also had in storage and was considering 3D printed replicas. Perhaps someone has already thought of this. I've had several 3D parts printed so far.

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> Sorry to hear about the loss of the car. I had a similar thing happen to me many years ago, so I can kind of imagine how you feel.

Thanks @HS30-H it's a very odd kind of loss. The connection to history, previous and future owners. It is a very unexpected kind of feeling.  With the exception of this forum and other car restorers "metal as art" and the time and dedication it takes to complete projects like this is something few people understand.  The planning, preparation, paint, panels, perspiration and pure persistence is like being a part of that history, which I find appealing.

> I'd tend to err on the side of caution and call 'HS30-00048' a mid-1970 build. Cross-referencing the manufacturing dates and quality control stamp dates on the components of the car (if any are still to hand...) would help to pin it down a little more closely.

I wish, though I have the rego papers for #366 and it says it was first registered in 1969, which I found confusing until you mentioned the non-linear construction of the vehicles.

> Doesn't change the valuation much in my opinion. 'Low number' cars have an undeniable cachet and HS30 #48 is pretty low, so it would make it more desirable to a particular cohort but it is difficult to quantify.

I will find the photos eventually in my archives. The car was complete and had some very unusual things happening.  The height of the vehicle was raised with elongated strut towers - suggesting it was once rallied. The L24 Engine had non-standard thinner rings and dual oil pick-ups and a modified oil pan. 

> Hope you get the result and justice you desire. Good luck. 

Much appreciated and as I gain more information I'll know better what sort of outcome can be achieved and I'll communicate that back to this forum.

 

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On 10/30/2024 at 10:34 AM, MrKaos said:

I wish, though I have the rego papers for #366 and it says it was first registered in 1969, which I found confusing until you mentioned the non-linear construction of the vehicles.

When I mentioned "non-linear" I was referring to the (bad!) habit of people tending to compare HS30-prefixed production serial numbers and dates with HLS30-prefixed production serial numbers and dates. There is a tendency to think of the factory as a sausage machine that could not be turned off and on, and that - therefore - HS30-00xxx must have come off the production line on the same day as HLS30-00xxx. That's not what happened. Sequential body serial numbers were assigned in a linear fashion for each prefix ('S30', 'PS30', 'HS30', HLS30' etc), so 'S30-00123', 'PS30-00123', 'HS30-00123' and 'HLS30-00123' would all have been made, but not necessarily within the same time period as each other.  

I'd urge GREAT caution in assigning too much trust to stuff written on local documentation after import. For example, one of my cars - a 1970 Fairlady Z-L - has been assigned as a '1982 Fairlady Turbo' by our UK national vehicle licensing agency. I now have a government agency document which says so, so it must be true, right? Well, no...

 

 

 

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> Sequential body serial numbers were assigned in a linear fashion for each prefix ('S30', 'PS30', 'HS30', HLS30' etc), so 'S30-00123', 'PS30-00123', 'HS30-00123' and 'HLS30-00123' would all have been made, but not necessarily within the same time period as each other.  

> I'd urge GREAT caution in assigning too much trust to stuff written on local documentation after import.

Yeah, that makes sense @HS30-H that their production line functioned that way and how the car is most likely 1970. @gav240z, that's Z048 after the first damage, thanks for your insights into the car's value.  As I said to @AndBir I've finally located some photos of the car:

First shot here of the roof undamaged.  I built a rig so that I could swing the rear end around easily.  At this point here I was on the last step of fully striping the chassis and only had the two bolts of the mustache to remove before soda or other blasting.   From #366 I learned that those two bolts in early cars need some patience to extract so I had been spraying them with silicone for some time ready for the day I go to take them out. 

You'll also note the later model 1/4 panel I replaced that was damaged, the way it had extended strut towers it looked like it was a rally car once upon a time.   So I'd completed the major repairs and also stripped the floorpan both sides preparing for stitch welding:

IMAG0277.thumb.jpg.9b72776cc75c0c3fc33db502fb297e94.jpg

 

In this photo you can see the other quarter panel replacement on the other side of the vehicle.  I'd kept the original rear window with the Datsun sticker and stainless.  At the bottom of the photo you can see the replacement strut towers:

IMAG0278.thumb.jpg.662ede2fabc57f2ebf0a2b7186bbfdbc.jpg

 

The build number stamp:

IMAG0282.thumb.jpg.d1fb0055bdb19f85ff2ab3c92827f921.jpg

 

Frame rails on both sides were good:

IMAG0283.thumb.jpg.1a5f7983f1ebb775ab8bbd530c01b569.jpg

 

IMAG0284.thumb.jpg.dfad1e23f00fe4503930ad0d5050f317.jpg

 

Dashboard was cracked but undamaged, a reskin and galvanise the frame.  Door hinges were good and you can see where more under body work was stripped.  You can also see the fenders are pretty straight:

IMAG0285.thumb.jpg.5e679ec259331f6a83e244e0f6c525f2.jpg

 

Here you can see where more completed repairs with the welding done. The only remaining metal work was the cowl:

IMAG0288.thumb.jpg.4b11852d6982841e1f479db7ce21690b.jpg

 

Here you can see that the bonnet was straight, the grill needed a bit of work.  I had two sets of doors amongst other panels I'd been collecting from from donor cars:

IMAG0289.thumb.jpg.470e6866bce046aa730c76391cb25892.jpg

 

This essentially shows the work I'd done so far.  I knew that I could incorporate repairs to the roof into the next steps after advice I got when I posted the photo of the roof damage (I could not find the link).   I'll post photos of the parts next.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Now for the parts I had of Zed #048.   They are all laid out on a Tarp and I've taken a photo of each half from two angles, which was an easy way of keeping an inventory.

From back to front of the first half:

F/R Suspension components, springs, 2 * axle half shaft,  rear drum brakes, R180 Diff, L28 Turbo, 6 pistons and conrods, 3 A frames,  early 5 speed gearbox, F/R sway bars:

IMAG1814.thumb.jpg.be2b329885ebe25a2e1783026fee5ef5.jpg

 

and back:

IMAG1824.thumb.jpg.90db6ba7a089b5049d4514fc83952fd1.jpg

 

Next I had:

2 Oil pans (note in the front the modified Oil pan made for the dual oil pickup ) and timing cover.

4 Rocker covers (1* 2400 OHC), rocker cover at the front has the cam in it, oil sprayer, the other two oky strapped together contain other engine parts like rockers and springs. Wiper bottle, two injected heads (E28 if I recall), rusty crank is L24,  twin SU carbs, another oil pan,  Second front cross member, Original exhaust manifold and 6 propeller shafts.

IMAG1816.thumb.jpg.d9cc4cb3016a9c991240136da4156303.jpg

 

and back again shows also a L28 injection manifold and also the SU velocity stacks of the intake box. 

IMAG1818.thumb.jpg.19bd320561ee6760541d8009d10b0f7d.jpg

 

90 degrees of front shows Starter motor, cam and cam towers in rocker cover and rear engine cover, alternator mount:

IMAG1833.thumb.jpg.c82d513c18b6d201a5a0a5c0f132de1b.jpg

 

90 degrees to rear, 2 more cams one was a real screamer, another starter motor and the diff mount.

That covers the bulk mechanical part.  Next post is the smaller mechanical parts.

 

 

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For the ancillary parts for #Z048 I had put everything into boxes and stored nice and dry.

Window winders, box of window parts and air flow meter for the L28:

IMAG1845.thumb.jpg.49cabbfc98fba8c9b7150ebb1db6af2f.jpg

 

Brake parts and lines, those thinner front panel bolts, bonnet latch, door hinge, linkages:

IMAG1846.thumb.jpg.c9a1efcfea8ead6e3d0d67f96884019c.jpg

 

Gear Stick levers and gear box pin:

IMAG1847.thumb.jpg.90c4d7f68feed16db9c55f5037e2470f.jpg

 

Electrical parts, wiring harness, speedo cable, regulator, indicators stalk and wiper control, fuse box, twing choke panel, ignition keys (original key), I think that is the car manual wrapped in plastic, some other parts:

IMAG1848.thumb.jpg.b9ea15d5a303e2555faa4711a1255eff.jpg

 

Wiper bottles and pumps, water lines, Wiper motor and Wipers:

IMAG1849.thumb.jpg.bae17c710bfbfe8b60f023dc3512c3fb.jpg

 

Original door parts, handles, window winders, trim clips, door screws, locks, fuel gauge

IMAG1850.thumb.jpg.aecc58eaf393516c6a9bf19e0360051a.jpg

 

Sun visor, air ducts, windscreen defroster vents, more duct parts:

IMAG1851.thumb.jpg.901569633e96334bcd5474b989e8e0d3.jpg

 

Head lights, vent parts, blower motor, front vent duct, handbrake cover (I was keeping part I knew I may have to have remade):

IMAG1853.thumb.jpg.9a319d90aa6eeed16f0125af65adc3d5.jpg

 

Master brake actuator, fan thermostat, top diff mount, gearbox diaphragm mount, brake vacuum one way valve:
 

IMAG1854.thumb.jpg.17e475b37e76e781a39e938631bd0b51.jpg

 

Rear quarter window and frames:

IMAG1858.thumb.jpg.f6706da02bb4b80198f3ecfe3f924428.jpg

 

Rear tail lights, license lamp and wiring:

IMAG1861.thumb.jpg.89d46b6600bd3d7279b9e48b04e0051b.jpg

 

New quarter window rubbers, tail light gaskets, Instrument lens:

IMAG1862.thumb.jpg.98a52097a33b81aeb5c35870204430b2.jpg


distributor, cam towers, oil pump, oil sprayer:

IMAG1865.thumb.jpg.2e495c7b749f800a083c3b9c2e8c457a.jpg

 

There are other photos, possibly of the chassis that I still haven't found yet.  This covers most of the ancillary parts.

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That about covers it.  I had parts like fuel tank, seats, bumpers, cowl cover in the rafters above the car also itemised for the rebuild.  I appreciate you all checking it out and I hope that helps with your opinions on what the vehicle was worth complete and in this state.

 

Cheers

John

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Good inventory. What I'm still not clear on is what happened to all those many parts, including those stored in the rafters above, ie. did they all accompany the body shell to the crusher or are some still at your late father's house?

BTW sorry for splitting hairs but you mention taller strut towers, but i think you mean taller struts, whereas strut 'towers' are the housings built into the bodywork that the struts bolt up into and hang down from. But anyway..... hope some parts have escaped your brother's evil eye.

Edited by gilltech
further query
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> BTW sorry for splitting hairs but you mention taller strut towers, but i think you mean taller struts, whereas strut 'towers' are the housings built into the bodywork

All good, thanks for the clarification. That is what I meant.

> What I'm still not clear on is what happened to all those many parts

So am I @gilltech. I know the effort it takes to unpack and pack it.

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