oil for the old girl

[nizm0zed]

Well, scott (razz) and i were talking all things zed today, and he asked me about what oil is good for the l series motors.

I am waiting till the Motul rep comes into work, so i can ask him whether the Ester based oil is suitable for the engine.

 

as many of you will know, the L series motors need an oil with zinc in it, to prevent wear within the engine, particularly in the camshaft and rockers. (covered on Hybridz)

so, the question is,

 

What oils are suitable for the L series, and what oils do people use? (and how is your motor wearing)

[C.A.R.]

I've been running Penrite HPR40 in the Bus for years with no decernable wear.

But Penrite also have a 'Classic' range that has a Zinc substitue in it (so I've been told) - though I've never used it myself...

 

The old cheese has some info on Zinc oils somewhere so I'll have to dig it out.

[chris240]

ditto...Ive been running Penritre HPR40 for ages & seems fine...

however Simon (Rhino73z) was suprised Im not running a synthetic as they are that good nowadays..

any thoughts on blends or full synthetics ?

[xa1973]

Mineral oils break down very quickly

 

10w 30 or 10w 40 full synthetic gives very good performance across a wide operating heat range, and is especially good on cold morning starts for engine lube run up

 

20w 20 through to 20w 50 is just as good, but a lot slower to pump up in very cold climates or snow

 

In some instances lube changes can now be pushed out to 15000 ks, not that I agree with that

 

Cheers

[nizm0zed]

lube changes can be pushed out to 15000kms, if your engine is designed for it, and you use a suitable oil, but we are talking specifically about the L series engine here, and specifically that it does need a zinc additive, or equivalent, to minimise the wear from shear loading on the rockers and lash pads in particular.

 

some of the hybridz stuff,

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=137868

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=108608

 

 

 

http://datsunzgarage.com/rebuild/index.htm

 

MOTOR OIL

The quality of the oils used today versus what was available in the 1970s is night-and-day. Back then they sludged up motors and filled oil pans with glop, it's amazing so many Z engines made it to 200,000 miles using that oil...it really says something about the quality of Datsun engines as a whole. Today's SM API rated oils have much more detergent and anti varnishing abilities and are said to be stable out to 10,000 miles.

 

HOWEVER....

Older engines with mechanical valve tappets like the L series and V8s with flat tappets (not roller cams) were designed for motor oil which contain a moderate amount of zinc and phosphorus known as ZDDP (zinc diaklydithiophosphate). ZDDP is considered a miracle lubricant for engines and has been used for about 60 years in motor oil and greases worldwide.

 

While zinc is not directly harmful to the environment, if its burned due to ring blowby it ruins your catalytic converter. So over last decade the EPA has pressured the oil companies to reduce the percentage of ZDDP in their passenger car oils. This extends the life of converters which in turn reduces total car emissions. SM grade oils all have about .08% ZDDP to conform to EPA standards. 2% and higher ZDDP is considered the level to shoot for.

 

Pressure from the construction industry allows some diesel oils like Rotella T made by Shell to use higher levels of ZDDP which they claim is needed on heavy equipment. However, I don't like the idea of using bulldozer-grade oil in my 7,000 rpm L28, even if it does have more zinc. Starting in 2007 construction equipment had tighter emissions standards, so zinc in Rotella is likely to diminish eventually.

 

Luckily there is still one company with the guts to market a higher ZDDP oil for passenger cars, in a viscosity that doesn't reduce horsepower: Valvoline. Their VR1 10W-30 racing oil is a quality SH grade oil which simply means the ZDDP hasn't been removed to qualify as a SL or SM grade. Valvoline's MSDS sheet lists it at 1.3% phosphorus/zinc, 1% sulfated ash and 2.5% calcium...which makes for a nice lube cocktail. Valvoline states it exceeds SM levels of protection...so this is now my oil of choice.. The best place to find it is at NAPA stores, the part # is 205, $5.75 a quart on October 2008. It also comes in a 20w-50 version but I think that's too thick for a L28 motor

[xa1973]

lube changes can be pushed out to 15000kms, if your engine is designed for it, and you use a suitable oil, but we are talking specifically about the L series engine here, and specifically that it does need a zinc additive, or equivalent, to minimise the wear from shear loading on the rockers and lash pads in particular.

 

some of the hybridz stuff,

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=137868

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=108608

 

 

 

So you've answered your own question??

 

You asked about synthetic and you got your answer

[nizm0zed]

yes, i have answered my question to some degree, but i am also interested in what other people on the forum are running in thier own L series engies, and how they are coping with engien wear.

 

the info is also here for other people, as i stated in my opening question, scott and i were discussing this, and i couldnt give him a decent answer, because at the time, i just didnt know.

 

just to clarify, i didnt ask about synthetic, i asked about zinc additives.

full synthetic oils are pointless in anything but a fresh motor (rebuild or new) if you put a synthetic in an older motor, your just wasting your money, it'll do no better than a semi synthetic.

[xa1973]

 

however Simon (Rhino73z) was suprised Im not running a synthetic as they are that good nowadays..

any thoughts on blends or full synthetics ?

 

[nizm0zed]

well, i was speaking to the lucas oil rep the other day, and he showed me one of his products.

 

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=82&catid=9&loc=show&headTitle=%20-%20Engine%20Break-In%20Oil%20Additive%20-%20TB%20Zinc%20Plus

 

its a zinc additive that he says is safe to stay in the oil long term, and is designed to work for flat tappet systems, and areas that need protection from high shear loads.

he gave me a bottle to try out, so once my engine is ready to go, i'll add it in.

[benny]

personally i would stay clear of the lucas stuff, put the Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer is dads car and all it did was blow more smoke... might of been a bad batch dunno....

 

Ben

[C.A.R.]

If these additives were any good, they'd put them in the oil to begin with...

[zzzzed]

has any one tryed slick 50? my old man swares buy it

 

[xa1973]

has any one tryed slick 50? my old man swares buy it

 

 

Its like Mortein, been around forever, Good Stuff

 

[zzzzed]

i suposeit would want to be for the price

[redrbzed]

 

I read some time ago that the US army did some testing of a bunch of oil additives and found they were all ineffective and some were harmful to engine internals.

what the found was that all they had in them were friction modifiers that had a short term effect and then broke down over time.

As for shear wear, modern grade 4 synthetics that are ester based (Red Line, Motul V300) do not have a problem.

Zinc additive is a old solution to the problem.

When I had my L28 turbo motor I ran a shell synthetic and had no problems with wear.

The line about wasting your money on a synthetic oil in a older engine is the biggest croc of .... I have heard in a while.

Ask the V8 super car engine builders if the use a mineral based oil, they have to work with some very old engine designs. 

What about lower coefficient of friction, improved heat dissipation, longer life.

All these thing still apply in any internal combustion engine.

 

Now that I have got that off my chest I will go and have a nice little lie down. 

[xa1973]

 

As for shear wear, modern grade 4 synthetics that are ester based (Red Line, Motul V300) do not have a problem.

Zinc additive is a old solution to the problem.

When I had my L28 turbo motor I ran a shell synthetic and had no problems with wear.

The line about wasting your money on a synthetic oil in a older engine is the biggest croc of .... I have heard in a while.

 

 

[benny]

well said lurch

[benny]

If these additives were any good, they'd put them in the oil to begin with...

[nizm0zed]

they dont put zinc in oil anymore because its bad for the enviroment, and has a nasty side effect of killing cat converters quickly.

 

as for the comment about wasting money by putting full synthetic in an old engine, its more along the lines of the additives and advantages that you do get from a full synthetic will make no more difference than if you used a semi syn oil.

 

Infact, if you take an engine that has a few kms on it (200,000kms?) and has had a long life on mineral oils, the mineral deposits actually lodge themselves in the seals as they wear, helping to prevent leaks.

when you start using full synthetics on that same motor, the detergents in the oil will wash out the deposits, and the seals will begin to leak.

hence my comment, it is great for fresh engines, either new, or rebuilt.

I have a new car (wifes) and it only uses full synthetics, because i know its good for it, and i dont plan on using anything but.

 

but we are getting off topic here.......

 

It is interesting that you say the ester base oils are a modern replacement to the zinc, i had suspected that, but when i spoke to the motul rep, he couldnt give me an exact answer at the time. He was chasing it up for me.

seeing as my motor is refereshed, i would be quite happy to use motul 300V in it.

[DevilZ]

As for shear wear, modern grade 4 synthetics that are ester based (Red Line, Motul V300) do not have a problem.

Zinc additive is a old solution to the problem.

When I had my L28 turbo motor I ran a shell synthetic and had no problems with wear.

The line about wasting your money on a synthetic oil in a older engine is the biggest croc of .... I have heard in a while.

Ask the V8 super car engine builders if the use a mineral based oil, they have to work with some very old engine designs. 

What about lower coefficient of friction, improved heat dissipation, longer life.

All these thing still apply in any internal combustion engine.

 

Now that I have got that off my chest I will go and have a nice little lie down. 

 

I heard different from engine builders. When I built my stroker I was told by engine builders not to run synthetic oil in the L series. There justification for this was that they said the L series aren't designed for it as they have larger oil gallerys. They said new engines are designed to run low viscosity synthetics as there oil gallerys are smaller along with bearing clearences etc.....they said to run a good mineral based oil instead to me. They also said that running a synthetic could lead to oil leaks from the gaskets on a L series.