The Global Z-car (S30/S130) Market Thread.

[gilltech]

Quote

I wish I could lead you by the hand and show you *The Real Thing* whilst pointing out the hundreds, if not thousands, of details that went into them.

Honestly, I think you'd be in awe. As I always am.

And I wish I could take you up on it! I'd love to see the real things. Are they all in Japan, as in the Nissan museum that some on this forum have visited? Or private ownership? 

I don't suppose any of the old rally and race cars from that era are in the UK? What happened to 'Big Sam'?

I visit the UK from time-to-time, family connections, but no plans to visit Japan, but going nowhere while this bloody covid19 germ is still stalking us all.

Edited September 12, 2020 by gilltech

[HS30-H]

8 hours ago, gilltech said:

And I wish I could take you up on it! I'd love to see the real things. Are they all in Japan, as in the Nissan museum that some on this forum have visited? Or private ownership? 

I don't suppose any of the old rally and race cars from that era are in the UK? What happened to 'Big Sam'?

I visit the UK from time-to-time, family connections, but no plans to visit Japan, but going nowhere while this bloody covid19 germ is still stalking us all.

Nissan has three cars in its Heritage Collection at Zama: The '71 East African Safari Rally-winning car, the '72 Monte Carlo Rallye 3rd place finisher and the '73 Safari-winner. They regularly show the '71 and '72 cars at events all over Japan. The '73 Safari car requires some conservation work, and I do hope they don't mess it up. In my opinion they over-'restored' the other two cars and chucked some of the baby out with the bath water. I'm told there were the dreaded Health and Safety liabilities involved in showing the cars in their previous (much more original) state, and I guess that's the world we live in now.

My friends Kevin Bristow and Gary Hicks own two genuine ex-Works cars here in the UK: Kevin's is the '71 RAC Rally car of Herrmann and Schuller and Gary's is the '73 RAC Rally car of Kallstrom and Billstam, complete with its LY24 'Crossflow' engine. Race car 'Big Sam' has used more than one ex-Works bodyshell in its life, and is currently built on a bodyshell that was used on the '73 Monte Carlo Rallye (not an ex-Safari car, as is often said). However, it was converted from LHD to RHD and almost nothing of its rally-related spec is left. 

There's a '71 Monte Carlo Rallye car which now resides in the USA, and which requires a sympathetic restoration. This car resided in private ownership - converted to a road car! - for many years in Holland, and I was involved in its authentication and sale. This car is very special as - like Kevin's '71 RAC car - it used the 'PZR' 432-R's lightweight bodyshell componentry for its build. They are quite different from the cars built for the rule changes of the '72 season and beyond.

I've got a collection of genuine ex-Works parts in my posession, and rather than have them sitting on shelves and hanging on the wall like hunting trophies I want to put them on a suitable car to give them some kind of living purpose. I have a complete engine, transmission, diff, radiator, oil cooler, suspension, sumpguard mount/brace, brakes, wheels, seats, roll bar, switchgear and lots of other bits and pieces, and can fabricate stuff like pedals, tank, plexi windows and all the other bits to give it the right feel. Rather than replicating a well-known Works car, I'm aiming to replicate/tip my hat to one of the early Works test cars which was 918 Orange (it was built on a PZR 'shell) and I have an early 1970 LHD on which to base it. It's been delayed by the Covid-19 lockdown, but I hope to get it into the paint shop near Christmas and put it together next year. Watch this space.

Here's Kevin's '71 RAC car ('TKS 33 SA 3640') on a demo event at Chatsworth House (one of the original RAC Rally stages) and that's me in the 'Navigator' seat, trying not to bash my head on the roof. Kevin is currently recovering from a very serious motorcycling accident and I really miss him and need him back in his car...



         

[DattoZ]

20 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

Nissan has three cars in its Heritage Collection at Zama: The '71 East African Safari Rally-winning car, the '72 Monte Carlo Rallye 3rd place finisher and the '73 Safari-winner. They regularly show the '71 and '72 cars at events all over Japan. The '73 Safari car requires some conservation work, and I do hope they don't mess it up. In my opinion they over-'restored' the other two cars and chucked some of the baby out with the bath water. I'm told there were the dreaded Health and Safety liabilities involved in showing the cars in their previous (much more original) state, and I guess that's the world we live in now.

My friends Kevin Bristow and Gary Hicks own two genuine ex-Works cars here in the UK: Kevin's is the '71 RAC Rally car of Herrmann and Schuller and Gary's is the '73 RAC Rally car of Kallstrom and Billstam, complete with its LY24 'Crossflow' engine. Race car 'Big Sam' has used more than one ex-Works bodyshell in its life, and is currently built on a bodyshell that was used on the '73 Monte Carlo Rallye (not an ex-Safari car, as is often said). However, it was converted from LHD to RHD and almost nothing of its rally-related spec is left. 

There's a '71 Monte Carlo Rallye car which now resides in the USA, and which requires a sympathetic restoration. This car resided in private ownership - converted to a road car! - for many years in Holland, and I was involved in its authentication and sale. This car is very special as - like Kevin's '71 RAC car - it used the 'PZR' 432-R's lightweight bodyshell componentry for its build. They are quite different from the cars built for the rule changes of the '72 season and beyond.

I've got a collection of genuine ex-Works parts in my posession, and rather than have them sitting on shelves and hanging on the wall like hunting trophies I want to put them on a suitable car to give them some kind of living purpose. I have a complete engine, transmission, diff, radiator, oil cooler, suspension, sumpguard mount/brace, brakes, wheels, seats, roll bar, switchgear and lots of other bits and pieces, and can fabricate stuff like pedals, tank, plexi windows and all the other bits to give it the right feel. Rather than replicating a well-known Works car, I'm aiming to replicate/tip my hat to one of the early Works test cars which was 918 Orange (it was built on a PZR 'shell) and I have an early 1970 LHD on which to base it. It's been delayed by the Covid-19 lockdown, but I hope to get it into the paint shop near Christmas and put it together next year. Watch this space.

Here's Kevin's '71 RAC car ('TKS 33 SA 3640') on a demo event at Chatsworth House (one of the original RAC Rally stages) and that's me in the 'Navigator' seat, trying not to bash my head on the roof. Kevin is currently recovering from a very serious motorcycling accident and I really miss him and need him back in his car...



         

Very glad this conversation happened, really enjoying these photos and learning a little bit more on these cars. Yeah, I remember seeing other ex rally cars with scuff marks and damage on display over in japan.  It's surprising to see these cars are being used for events and driven.

[gilltech]

Terrific, HS30-H, thanks for the info which I and I'm sure many others here do appreciate.

So we can now look forward to your assembly/build up of a replica Works test car in 2021, having already collected up so many of the right bits? Awesome. Lots of photos please. Thanks.

Edited September 12, 2020 by gilltech

[HS30-H]

OK, I know I go on like a broken record about stuff like this, but I really want people to get some idea as to just how special the Works cars were. There was almost nothing stock about them. Almost every part or assembly was modified or special in some way.

Here's an example that kind of hides in plain sight. The Works team sometimes needed to replace headlamps (missing lights and even mud flaps could lead them to lose points and/or be disqualified from an event) and - as some of us know - this can be a pain in the arse. Especially so when the inner arch is filled with mud or snow, and another mechanic is inside the wheelarch servicing the brakes or replacing a suspension leg. The solution was to modify the headlamp pods/'sugar scoops' so that the lamp unit could be removed, replaced and adjusted from the outside of the car. Most of the Works cars had FRP/ABS moulded lamp pods, and were cut away to suit. They even added a finger tab to the housing so that the unit could be held in place whilst the screws were removed or attached. Seriously, this could be the difference between winning and losing a rally.

In the '71 East African Safari Rally-winning car's case, this became slightly academic when the crew were forced to use bailing wire to improvise a rules-compliant right hand head lamp after they had knocked the whole thing off. But still...

Here's the LH pod on the car in question:

 

 

That 'tribute' car on Bring A Trailer - to my eyes anyway - seems to be just a paint and stickers job because it doesn't pay any attention to the 'feel' or content of the original. It leads people to think that the original Works cars were almost stock, when they were nothing of the sort. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by HS30-H

[gilltech]

Pity that didn't become a production modification. Most interesting... feel free to keep talking.

PS. is that a rippled panel in the top RH side of the first picture where the white lettering is? Or maybe it's just a visual distortion.

[Ponyo240z]

Thanks for sharing Alan, very interesting. 

I was lucky enough for visit Zama a couple of years back, the guides were super helpful, gave a parting gift on the way out and you could buy GTR water from the vending machine which I lugged around in my backpack for the following three weeks 

The journey there was a great memory also, for no particular reason, just stuck with me. Maybe it was the gardens, I've worked in the fresh food industry for many years!

 

 

 

[DattoZ]

Ah i understand now,  it seems so the car on bring a trailer is more so a presentation piece and the most obvious bits slapped onto it. That headlamp modification functional, and so specific to the vehicle. The specification of the vehicle would be very special.
 

[gilltech]

Thanks for the Zama photos. Drool. Well that's two of the race/rally cars. Love those bonnet-mounted driving lights.

I'll have to google the US scene, wondering whether any of the BRE and other well known race cars have been preserved.

Anyway, IMO there's always a place for 'tribute' cars, even a token, to keep the history alive. Just so long as no-one tries to pass one off as the real thing when it changes hands of course. That's a whole separate discussion in itself.....

[HS30-H]

On 9/15/2020 at 2:14 AM, gilltech said:

Pity that didn't become a production modification. Most interesting... feel free to keep talking.

PS. is that a rippled panel in the top RH side of the first picture where the white lettering is? Or maybe it's just a visual distortion.

I think it qualifies as a ripple:

[gilltech]

Oh dear... dare I ask, what did they hit, an elephant?   The body shell looks like one large ripple...

There's that jacking point, another detail...

Edited September 16, 2020 by gilltech

[AndBir]

On 9/16/2020 at 7:30 PM, gilltech said:

The body shell looks like one large ripple...

 

[OdinZ]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:12 PM, gav240z said:

Works Rally 240z Tribute on BAT.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-datsun-240z-61/

sold for US$71k

[gilltech]

Hmmm... that's pretty good money for a tribute car then... I guess the original is priceless. That obnoxious troll who was on this forum a month back telling us the Zeds are worth stuff-all would have a heart attack.

BTW, why does the original No.11 have a RH headlamp bucket in the outdoor video and yet that's missing in the Zama museum photo?

Edited September 18, 2020 by gilltech

[HS30-H]

59 minutes ago, gilltech said:

BTW, why does the original No.11 have a RH headlamp bucket in the outdoor video and yet that's missing in the Zama museum photo?

The car was 'refurbished' in 2013. Apparently this was required because Nissan wanted to continue using the car for display purposes at various events, and to have it both running and driving, whilst not falling foul of the dreaded Health And Safety and public liability insurance issues. Meh. So a volunteer team spent some time on it and made it 'safer' for display, and this included re-covering the seats (unwitting vandalism in my opinion) so a certain amount of baby was chucked out with the bath water...

Mind you, when the car finished the rally in '71 it was quite beaten up and needed some help to hold it all together before final scrutineering. And having finished the event it was whisked back to Japan for display at Nissan's Ginza, Tokyo head office and a tour of local dealerships. At one point it was sitting on a plinth at Yurakucho, Tokyo train station! At the end of the year it was displayed at the 1971 Tokyo Motor Show. During all this the car got messed around with a little to spruce it up for display (apparently some dimwit members of the general public couldn't understand why it was so beaten up...), and a few 'souvenirs' were taken.

When I first saw it in the metal back in the early 1990s it was still very original but a few bits and pieces had gone missing off it. Some of it was in storage with Safari Motors (the Nissan-owned company which curates the Heritage Collection) so was safe. Many of those parts are now back on it. 

Here's how it was in 2013. I liked it this way the most:

 

 

[CBR Jeff]

Alan. 

Is some of the accident damage on this car from an encounter to goats? I seem to remember reading about a work car having some problems with a herd of goats. 
 

Jeff

[HS30-H]

6 minutes ago, CBR Jeff said:

Alan. 

Is some of the accident damage on this car from an encounter to goats? I seem to remember reading about a work car having some problems with a herd of goats. 
 

Jeff

I should imagine they picked off most of the contents of Noah's Ark...

Don't know about goats, but looking down inside the driver's door panel once - I was looking at the winder mechanism, which is modified from stock - I spotted an Ostrich feather sitting down there at the bottom. Apparently they had hit a few of these daft creatures on the route. Collateral damage I guess.

[AndBir]

Apart from the obvious, why the addition of the rear side handles and rear "steps"?

[CBR Jeff]

The steps are for the navigator ( they were not co drivers back then ) to stand on and the handles and to hang on to while jumping up and down when getting out of a boggy situation. 
very useful when the driver had a woopsy. 
 

Jeff

[CBR Jeff]

Like this! It could be a messy job and was often open to high jinx if the driver was a joker. 
 

Jeff
 

Edited September 18, 2020 by CBR Jeff

[DattoZ]

any night time images with these hood lamps turned on? Love all these photos! 

[gav240z]

Good results for this 240z on BAT.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-datsun-240z-65/

$150k AUD..

[gav240z]

Another worth watching..

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-datsun-240z-160/

Wil it crack $200k USD?

Thats all dattos are cheap little inexpensive  mass produced cars and its all they ever will be they are nothing special although people on this forum act as though they are gold lol. - Hayden.

[HS30-H]

13 minutes ago, gav240z said:

Another worth watching..

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-datsun-240z-160/

Wil it crack $200k USD?

Probably will, but I have to say that this BaT phenomenon of high-selling S30s (and it is almost exclusively HLS30Us) seems to be fuelled by a small coterie of self-styled 'Collectors' who are trying to out-Billy-Big-Balls each other. The same few characters seem to be active on almost every auction of similar cars, and when they've rinised the arse out of that particular scene they will probably move onto the next 'up and coming' marque and model.

The guy who bumped the bids up by 85k USD in one shot is the same guy who bought the 918 Orange 432 that was recently put back together and sold here in the UK, and which - when it was imported from Japan in a case of the blind leading the blind - was made out of large sections of RLS30 stuck together with expanding foam. Back half of the car is about four years younger than the LH front of the car, and three years younger than the RH front. But apparently the new owner is a "renowned collector and marque expert". LOL.  

Which is an object lesson on what happens when markets get a little overheated, people who don't know what they are looking at get advised by people who don't know what they are looking at, and the whole shebang is egged on by people who don't even care. These are the same people who shout "Get in the hole!" at professional golf tournaments.

 

[C.A.R.]

Amazing...