Let's start a car club - discuss

[MaygZ]

OK.  The time has come to bring up this discussion.  PLEASE, have a read of the attached links before you get involved in the discussion.

 

http://feralsportscarclub.net/CarClub2.html

 

http://www.ourcommunity.com.au/management/view_help_sheet.do?articleid=15

 

http://www.cams.com.au/Forms/Schedule_of_Fees_-_Appendix_R.aspx

 

Unfortunately, due to differing rules in each state and club plates being state specific, I am only looking at a Victorian Club.  There is no reason as to why others in the other states can't research their states requirements.  I think the Qld boys have already done this???

 

My thoughts, to get the discussion kicked off, are that the path of the Ferals is followed closely.  That is to say,  4 or 5 members form the hub of the club and hold the executive positions.  All other members then join as 'associate' members without voting rights (but all other rights and benefits).

 

In that way the club stays the same.  It prevents the "anal bureaucrat" from building a self serving empire as I have seen happen in other clubs.

 

What are the benefits?

Cheaper club membership - as there is no need to acquire assets and our only ongoing costs will be renewals, Inc fees and the website costs (if Gav is happy to give us a section of the forum for an on-going fee?)  Not building an empire, just getting like minded people together to enjoy their cars.

No need for RWC or only a very occasional need for engineering reports (if the build is way out there) in order to get club plates.  As the vehicle only needs to be declared 'safe' by a member of the executive (as per the current Victorian Law)

No requirement to attend X number of events/meetings (as is the case with most car clubs in Vic)

As a club we may be able to negotiate with an insurance company for discounted insurance - I know AROCA do this - or cheaper parts/services etc with various businesses.  At the moment I haven't really found "I'm a member of an on-line forum." carries very much kudos or weight.

CAMS affiliation - issuing licences and running track days???  What's the interest level in this?  I don't have any recent experience in running track days.  It would obviously put up the annual fees of membership.  It's something I would be interested in being a part of, but again Discuss ...

 

Would joining the forum require or guarantee membership of this car club?  Absolutely not for either case.

 

Would not being a member of the club mean that I can't come to social events such as Tas, Christmas party, Bright, Thredbo etc?  Absolutely not.  The club should be set up so that there is not an overflowing bank balance and therefore in most cases attendees pay there own way.

 

I would like to emphasise that these are my thoughts.  Nothing has started, nothing is set in concrete, nothing has been signed.  I have spoken with a few Victorian members about this.  That is as far as it has progressed so far.

 

I would like a PM from members interested in being part of the founding executive.  A brief CV (My name is ....... and I'm an accountant/have a car restoration business/have been restoring cars since I was 12/am a good public speaker and spread love and goodwill wherever I go etc and would be happy to nominate for Treasurer/President/Vice President/Competition Secretary/Secretary.  The club will stay small with no large monthly meeting on a wednesday nights for the bureaucrats to shine, so the workload on each position would be small.  I suspect that 99% of the management of the club could be run on-line/by phone/at the pub for tea etc

 

So let the discussion begin.

[benny]

PM Sent

[Gordo]

I can see where this is going and don't mind one bit. But there will be a lot of guys saying , if it ant broke don't fix it. Just putting that one out there.

[MaygZ]

I can see where this is going and don't mind one bit. But there will be a lot of guys saying , if it ant broke don't fix it. Just putting that one out there.

 

I understand Gordo, but they shouldn't really be scared of change.

 

 

It would really suit the guys modifying their cars - particularly in the rural areas, where they can't find an engineer or the local one is too conservative etc.  No engineer (except extreme cases) and no RWC could save members $1000's of dollars.  They only have to make sure their vehicle is 'safe'.  There are enough experienced and honest guys in this club to ensure that is the case.

 

It would also suit the guys who aren't interested in paying $200 odd dollars to join a club and then have to attend 3+ meetings (again rural issues but also work and family commitments etc)

 

Taking CAMS out of the picture: it is $80 to start the club and I'm not sure on the costs of incorporation yet.  But at this stage I estimate that with say 50 members, it will cost $10-20 each member per year.  maybe make the fees $40 and $20 each member goes into the forum account?  Just ball park at this stage.  I suspect that CAMS affiliation (to get competition licenses will add another $10 each)

[benny]

This all sounds fantastic and is far overdue. the whole club "thing" works in favour of everyone. As Maygz had said; cheap fees, cheap rego, no rwc(pending safety).

 

 

There is obviously a lot of work that needs to go into this but will be well worth it when its all up and running.

 

 

You have my vote and support,

 

 

Ben

[sco_aus]

Maybe a list of pro's vs con's could be made for easier reading.  I love what we have going here, there are no politics and generally everyone gets along well. 

 

So I would like to see the real benefits of becoming an official club and whether it would really be worth it.

 

My 2c

[dat2kman]

The concept of a " core " executive, should work.

Jump say 5 or 10 years, what is in place for succession of the core group?

 

The rwc/safety thing, is open to flaunting of rules, ie get it registered in a no fuss lo expense way, then as time goes on further mods are done, that may contravene safety and insurances, ie third party injury.

How is it to be policed? Currently engineer types are now photographing or documenting modds appled for, so there is no future comeback if it is altered and an incident occurs.

Case in point, EPA loud exhausts and the original exhaust fitting shop ( canny shops will take pics to cover their arses)

 

It would be a goid idea to make, and then list up all the costs to set up, and annually run, a club, that way the annual fees to members have factored in the associated costs.

 

After all, when a long established club has thousands of dollars sitting in its bank account, that the past and present members have contributed to, and allwing for future event/club costs, why horde the funds.

Say a long time past member, who say paid in 10 years of fees, he gets no benefit if he elects to not continue, bit unfair?

 

Any club should be for current interests, and some future planning, not a dinosaur. Internet/web based club in this day and age is valid, old style club based on papertrails is passe.

 

And whats with so many clubs not prepared to take a calculated risk and put on events of all types for its members?

Those that have a good strong membership base do, and they do it well, but those with sub 100 members tend to be highly cautious in taking a calculated risk. It is goid as a membership drive and an awareness thing too.

[MaygZ]

PRO'S:

 

Cheaper membership - Prob $30 v's NDSOC of $65

Cheaper Rego - club plates (45 or 90 day log book scheme)

No minimum number of events to attend - save time

No requirement for RWC or engineer's reports (except in extreme cases) - save $$$

Z car decisions made by Z car owners - save feeling like a poor cousin

The ability to 'host' events and invite others - spread the love

More funds available to Gav to develop/enhance the forum as he sees a need

The possibility to obtain club discounts from various business'

 

CON'S

 

Some effort from a few

 

I really can't see much change in the way the forum runs.  The club would not be formed to 'replace' the forum, but rather to enhance it.  Much of this is pending Gav's support and permission to use the forum for club purposes.  There would be no requirement to be members of both.  I wouldn't want to have any 'club' exclusive events (other than club executive meetings)

 

I don't see anyone waking up the morning after a thinking all the world's problems have been solved, but I don't see anyone waking up and chewing their arm off either.

 

It's worth pointing out that I'm not suggesting that the forum 'become' a club.  I'm suggesting that we form a club and that members of the forum who are interested join said club.  The club would not replace the forum, but rather run parallel with the forum.  I am also not proposing to start a splinter group or a clique or anything divisive - just an option with benefits. 

 

 

 

With only 4 or 5 executive positions and 5 or 6 executive members there is a build in short term succession plan.  Further down the track, the executive may be able ti invite a member from the associates to join the executive. 

 

The purpose of incorporation is to protect members regarding liability for issues.  If members further altered their vehicles (and lets face it they are all constantly evolving) something could be added to our club rules that allow a further inspection if a level of alteration has occurred.  However, if after being inspected for club plates a then standard car was found to to have a merlin engine installed, the club, it's executive and it's membership are protected by incorporation.

 

The executive selected (and the greater membership) will/would not accept sh!t cars being 'deemed' safe.  That benefits nobody.

 

Many of the costs are dependent on the number of members and on what services or extras the members want.  It is not possible at this early stage to accurately state the fees.  I have put up my estimates and that's what they are and that is as accurate as I can be for now.

 

In addition to occasional track days, I would like to see a casual drive for lunch once a month - Baxter burgers, GOR, hanging rock, Dandenongs whatever and garage days/group builds akin to Lurch's instruction days or my help day.  I believe that it is a good and regular mixture of these types of events that gets increased membership, active membership and satisfied membership.

 

I don't believe that a long established club should ever have thousands of dollars in the bank.  If that is the case, then membership and event costs have been way to high.  I don't want a club that is about asset growth.  I don't want a club that becomes more about developing buildings and building bank balances than about building and driving cars.

 

Please keep the comments coming.  This is day one of a journey.

[sco_aus]

All very good points and I'm liking the idea.  Sadly I wouldn't be able to utelise the club, but I think it would be worthwhile for the Mexicans.

[MaygZ]

All very good points and I'm liking the idea.  Sadly I wouldn't be able to utelise the club, but I think it would be worthwhile for the Mexicans.

 

Move! 

[sco_aus]

Every time I go to Victoria I grow closer to hating it.  I lived there for 18 months and hated it.  I think I'll stick to visiting every once in a while.  Anyways, that's a different topic.  GO Club!

 

[DAZDA]

First and foremost, in general I am in favour of becoming a club.

 

My main concern is that unlike a job (where you get paid and are required to tow-the-line), car club committee members are generally volunteers and, in most clubs I have been a member of at least, they struggle to get people to be on the committee.  And the clubs which do manage to get volunteers, the volunteers often suffer at the hands of those quick to criticise but aren’t prepared to help themselves.

 

The other thing that tends to happen is, that sometimes those who are motivated enough to volunteer usually have their own personal agenda and as a result put that ahead of the ‘majority’s’ view.  But then use the excuse that they are a committee member and therefore 'if others don't like it, they should join the committee'.  It is not easy for some people to do what the club members want them to do (as a representative of the club) even if they personally don’t agree with it…

 

 

Like Scott, I won't really be able to utilise the things on offer (since I'm not in Vic), so take my view with a grain of salt.

[MaygZ]

I agree with you completely.

 

That is the reason for forming a core group of 5 or 6 people that hold the executive positions.  It should mean that the club stays on track and sticks to the original ideals.

 

Both monarchies and dictatorships work well with good leadership.

 

Just a reminder:  please read the first post link - particularly the first on from the Ferals.

[luvemfast]

I raised this issue a few years ago, but via a different route.

I proposed to become affiliated with the NDSOC, as its the biggest and oldest Datsun sports club in Australia. But it was rejected by members here. What you are proposing here has some merit and should be investigated.

 

[DAZDA]

Aren't you making some assumptions there?  Like the personal situations of the 5 or 6 key people don't change enough to stop them focusing on the club?

 

Also, it depends on what you believe the clubs whole philosophy should be built on;

• A club built and run by a handful of people and others can join but only if they are happy with the structure and outputs of the club
  
• Or, that the committee is there to enact the wishes of the club majority (which is why IMO clubs having 'votes' on key decisions not just voting to elect committee members is important
  

 

I'm not saying which model is right for the proposed club, merely trying to give some food for thought.

 

 

Please don't take any of this the wrong way, what you are proposing sounds fantastic and I would be very interested in joining if I was in Victoria. 

[MaygZ]

Daz,

 

I don't disagree with you.  There is no point in me starting a club without input and support - I'd likely be the only member.  One of the purposes of this discussion is to establish what members want in a Z club.

 

It is my view that the club be formed to satisfy the greatest interests and therefore the greatest membership and participation.  As such the executive have to listen to the membership and and adapt where possible to the greatest desires.  By staying with a core group on the executive I see that the club can grow and adapt but still hold onto the values on which it was established.

 

I've been involved in clubs where committee positions became a contest of who was more popular rather than better for the club.  Often these people come in spend a year changing as much of the core values of the club as possible and then move on.  It can take decades to undo the damage - if at all.

 

I am making some assumptions on the make up of the executive.  The executive would need to make a long term commitment to the club.  It shouldn't be a 1 or 2 year 'thing' and move on.  There are many people here who have already given many years of their life to the marque and to the forum.

 

We do need to discuss how to in the future bring people from the membership into the executive to replace people who chose to move on.

 

I haven't taken any of what you have said the 'wrong way'.  I want as much discussion as possible.  If this club gets up and going, it needs to address the concerns and represent the wishes of those that participate.

 

This is day one.  So far three of the five people posting can't join???  Well that's not true actually.  I can't see why interstate people can't join, they just wont be able to get all the benefits from the club.  (Unless they move to Australia's 'Most Livable City')

 

One thing that needs to be discussed is:  Are we looking at the Vic Z Club or the Aus Z Club, where the other states can start similar clubs and affiliate with us?  I haven't even looked at what that entails.

[sco_aus]

It's only livable if you don't own a car, then the state government fucks you every way they can.

[260Coupe]

Interesting topic and whilst I support any person with the "intestinal fortitude"to start a new club , I think a few things need to be clarified given that some comparison has been made with the NDSOC

 

On the subject of the fees and "accumulated assets"

 

I can only speak for the NDSOC and shed some light on the fee structure -

 

The majority of the  $65 annual fee goes towards the publishing of the monthly club magazine and in comparison to similar car clubs is on par or cheaper than many. The remaining fees pays for CAMS affililation, Public Liability Insurance  and affiliation with the AOMC (this allows the NDSOC to issue club permit plates)

 

As to "accumulated assets" - having a healthy bank balance provides a club with the ability to host major events and buy merchandise and give something back to members in the form of event discounts and freebees etc.

 

I find it interesting that many on this forum have expressed great interest in the upcoming 2013 Nissan/Datsun Nationals which will be hosted by the NDSOC -

How do you think the NDSOC could possibly host such an event if it did not have considerable funds in the bank ?

With track hire, insurances, CAMS permits, event merchandise, venue hire etc there will be outgoings of approx $20k before any revenue comes in from entries...........hence why any club must have solid financials if they are to host any event.........which in turn benefits the members.

 

Given that $65 per year is less than a tank of petrol ........... I find it hard to fathom how anybody thinks that is over the top

 

Also

 

On the subject of permit plates, the premis of your argument seems to be around allowing heavily modified vehicles onto the permit scheme that is primarily for standard or lightly modified vehicles (read the AOMC guidelines), Vic Roads and the AOMC are already clamping down on such practices and this has the inherent risk of jeopardising the permit plate scheme for all clubs.

 

The NDSOC policy on modifications is strictly in line with the guidelines and whilst some clubs may allow some deviation from the guidelines this is again puting the entire scheme at risk in the long term.

(as a foot note- The NDSOC has over one hundred vehicles on the permit plate scheme, the majority being standard or lightly modified, as such we as a committee must act for the majority and not jeopardise the permit scheme for a few who wish to "bend"the rules" for their own benefit) 

 

And finally............the current NDSOC committee is made up of six Zed owners

 

I'm sure I'll be flamed at some point .........but so be it

 

 

regards

 

Alan

Life member

NDSOC

 

 

[luvemfast]

Was waiting for your response Alan, interested to see the other sides point of view. I was also reading some of the links on original post.

I have a foot in both camps here. So can understand both sides. I don't think that $65 membership for NDSOC is unreasonable at all. Considering just the Xmas party this Sunday, where I bring my wife and kids to a catered event for example.

But as the club mags state each month, the biggest cost is the magazines and postage. We are surely getting left behind here aren't we? Maybe making it a digital version that gets emailed or hosted on the website will suffice? If you want to print it out? Print it out!

I also feel that the best club meets were the ones held at the Jag Club rooms. There were always 70-80 people there and lots of new people. As opposed to just going to a club or pub, where you get the same faces and no (or very little) new ones. If you want a pretty magazine, get a subscription. Save the money from the mags, spend it on putting the club meetings in the right environment.

 

A perfect example of why break away groups like this are started is Benny's Green Z.

He approached the NDSOC to get club plates and was told he would have to do this and have to do that...... For a mint 240Z? are you kidding me? NDSOC is where it belongs! 

 

Don't get me wrong. I love the NDSOC. Its been a part of my family my entire life. And I don't want anything bad to ever happen to it.

Anyway..... Rant over 

 

Also overheard parts of conversations, yet was not included in, at Gordo's on Saturday. It now makes sense as to what is what about. But feel ostracised as to why I wasn't asked........  :'(

 

 

[peter mc]

the  clubs that we have work OK, they would be better if more people were in them and not just join to get club plates on there first day , also if people went to there events and helped some times things would be even better , the ndsoc is a good club shore it can be a bit old fuddy dudy some times but if more young people got involved things might change , its been around a long time and have some great events , get behind it and make it a better place i say

[MaygZ]

Alan,

 

in no way am I sh!t canning NDSOC.  I've had nothing to do with that club and I am not proposing this club because of a perception that NDSOC is sub par.  I don't think that $65 a year is unreasonable at all.

 

My premise is not to allow heavily modified cars into the plates scheme.  It is to make it easier for people who modify their cars to obtain club reg.  many clubs require members to jump through hoops and incur unnecessary costs to obtain club plates.  This is not the purpose of the scheme.  I have discussed this with a few Vic Roads managers and they are very supportive.  After all the more cars registered, the more revenue they obtain to improve roads and services.

 

I would expect that all vehicles fall within the Vic Roads guidelines for vehicle modification OR have engineers reports.  Yes, I would think it unreasonable that a person who say does the R31 rears and Hilux fronts to not require an engineers report, but a person who cuts off the front of there car, builds a tubular frame to transplant a high HP engine in would.

 

In regards to AOMC affiliation:  it is my belief, based on some considered research that NDSOC does not need to be affiliated with anyone to be a part of the club plate scheme.  This is exactly the point I have been trying to make.  Someone some time ago decided to build themselves an empire. 

 

Vic Roads is quite clear on this one. 

 

The Victorian club permit scheme allows members of car clubs (including motorcycle, trailer/caravan and machinery clubs) that are recognised by VicRoads to make limited use of historic vehicles on the road network.

 

A car club registered with Vic Roads can apply for plates.  That simple.  The club doesn't need to be affiliated with anyone.

 

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Registration/PermitsModificationsAndDefects/OtherPermits/ClubPermits.htm

 

So the AOMC can write all the guidelines they like.  They mean nothing outside the AOMC, well they shouldn't.

 

The Furphy that Vic Roads will pull the permit scheme is the equivalent of the boogie man under the bed.

 

Again please let me emphasise that I am not anti any car club - in particular the NDSOC.  I simply believe that we can do somethings a bit better if we start from scratch.

 

Sheldon,

 

give me call.

[260Coupe]

Hi Simon

 

Unfortunately the  Jag rooms were costing a fortune and the club was rapidly going broke in 2006 hence the change of venue to a no cost location. By the end of 2006 there were only around 40 people attending the Jag rooms.....I was there and saw the decline.... (and the then committee had disintegrated thru in-fighting- hence why the old committee had to reform for 2007 to get the club back on track) At approx $400 per meeting for room hire,  we had to move or we would not had any $$$ left to host the 2007 Nationals (which were a huge success and got the club financial again)

Also whist the Jag rooms were a good venue meeting wise, the other down side of the Jag rooms was the lack of food and having to pay for over priced drinks which only further funded the Jag club.

 

On the subject of a printed magazine - we have canvassed the members many times and the preference is to have a printed mag in the mail box rather than an electronic copy only . The last time we broached the subject we only less than a 10% take up rate on the electronic copy and it more work for the committee to filter out those who did not want a hard copy and adjust the fees accordingly.............but again $65 is peanuts (The VHRR is $150 per annum)

 

As I said, I have only best wishes to any one who wishes to form a new club - however much effort is required and I think the level of effort is being underestimated by most who have not served on a car club committee before.

If I was looking at joining a club (even for $30 per annum) I would expect some level of return............regular events and regular mags (emailed is fine) and these however take organisation by a committed few............and as we all know committees are hard to recruit and they are eventually villified  for not appeasing the minority.

On the subject of Benny's Zed - yes that was not handled all that well however again we seemed to have someone wanting a permit plate above all else, this was made clear with the response to the 12 month wait period..........as it turned out the car was sold not long after (so I'm told). Did Benny actually attend a meeting or call me to discuss ?..........was there any intention to get involved with the NDSOC or was it just a convenience to obtain a plate???.,..the jury is still out on that point

 

Whilst I think there may certainly room for a stand alone Zed club, the entire premis of this new suggested club seems to be "do as little as possible for the most return"..........minimal committee input (do as little as possible) - low fees (but still expect events to be held) and still be eligible to issue permit plates (without following the rules- and with the possibility of jeopardising the permit scheme for all).

 

Call me "old skool" but I think clubs should have some for "formality" in the way they are managed and as the committee are all volunteers, they like to see members actually contributing to the club (event attendance, help organise or assist where possible) not just take all the benefits a club (such as the NDSOC) has to offer without giving anything back............but maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy 

 

On the subject of the longevity of the NDSOC...........we have maintained a constant membership of 250 + for the past 15 years, we hold events to satisfy the majority and whilst we are not as Zed centric as we were 20 years ago, the Zeds have certainly not taken a back seat and with the influx of 350/370 zed owners....the numbers are on the rise. It is the strength and history of the NDSOC that gets us invited to events such as the Grand Prix display, Shannons events, Geelong Speed trials, Hanging Rock, P.I Classic  etc etc .................so I think the future for the NDSOC is very much secure.

 

Sorry about the diatribe ...............see you on Sunday at the Xmas party

 

cheers

 

Al.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[260Coupe]

the  clubs that we have work OK, they would be better if more people were in them and not just join to get club plates on there first day , also if people went to there events and helped some times things would be even better , the ndsoc is a good club shore it can be a bit old fuddy dudy some times but if more young people got involved things might change , its been around a long time and have some great events , get behind it and make it a better place i say

 

Peter - well said ..................couldn't agree more

 

Alan

 

 

[Zedman240®]

I'm with PeterM on this one.

Sometimes its easy to put your hand up and say you'll be able to help on the committee, but when it comes down to it, it does take alot of your time and effort. I have only been on the NDSOC committee once a while ago and would like to do it again but family and work times will make it hard.

[260Coupe]

Sheldon - I was not suggested you were canning the NDSOC , I was just clarifying a few points as to why it is important for a club to be financially secure.

 

On the subject of permit plates

 

It seems that you think getting permit plates are hard? That may be the case if your vehicle is modified far beyond the intent of the scheme and you wish to take short cuts around the process

 

The NDSOC does not require a RWC or Engineers Certs in all cases,  we can issue a letter of safetly for most vehicles even with light mods (including disc converstions if done professionally and a brake test is provided), if the mods are major and club scrutineer deems it outside what he can sign off (major suspension/brake mods) then a RWC may be required as this removes the saftey onus off the club. Engine refits outside of the original family (L series to RB etc) will require engineers cert. as per the Vic roads rules.

 

As far as your comments regarding the AOMC and Vic roads go........ The AOMC campaigned for the original permit scheme on behalf of all affiliated clubs and again for the 90 day log book which came into play in Feb 2011........i can confirm this as I was at the meetings with Vic roads/AOMC and the car clubs over the past 4 years. The Association of Motor clubs was/is the voice of all affiliated car clubs and whilst membership may now not be manditory for a club to be granted a permit to issue club plates, the guidelines formulated for the scheme were the basis of the representations made to Vic Roads and which have been adopted by the majority of clubs on the permit scheme.

 

I was also at the meetings where the Vic Roads representatives where clear that the CPS was not to be an avenue for "cheap rego" for cars that would otherwise not be registerable...(this subject among others delayed the introduction of the 90 day log book by two years) .......hence why most clubs follow the guidelines.

 

Of the 100 + cars on permit plates, we have quite a number of Zeds (and other marques) that have coil overs, big brakes etc and all owners were quite OK with getting RWC's if asked to do so as they understood that the club could not be held responsible if there was a safety issue exposed in the event of an accident. (many on this forum are NDSOC members with permit plates including Simon, Dimitri , Ash etc............the process for obtaining a plate was simple)

 

If your model for the CPS allows mods without the "insurance"of a RWC (as this is cheap and easy) you may be exposing the "club" to an unacceptable risk - including the committee who signed off the issue of the permit plate .

 

Food for thought for prospective committee members of the proposed new club

 

regards

 

Alan