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singhy

what engine should i use???

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i guess the best thing too do now is just chuck in the rb20 , then while its running and together i can build my self a turbo l28 slowly over uni semester (not like i need to study or anything hehe)

 

thanks everyone for the info, but i spose itll be all trial and error

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Have I missed something? So you say an RB25/RB26 can't be fitted as they are over the HP limit? Then you talk about a SR20 and even a L28 turbo. Both these engine can be made to make as much power as the stock output of a RB25/RB26 turbo setup.

 

Even a L28 can make as much power as a stock RB26DETT which is 206kW or 276HP and that is without the aid of forced induction.

 

So like I say have I missed something?

 

 

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Have I missed something? So you say an RB25/RB26 can't be fitted as they are over the HP limit? Then you talk about a SR20 and even a L28 turbo. Both these engine can be made to make as much power as the stock output of a RB25/RB26 turbo setup.

 

Even a L28 can make as much power as a stock RB26DETT which is 206kW or 276HP and that is without the aid of forced induction.

 

So like I say have I missed something?

 

yeh you missed somthing hehe. the new NCOP laws for NSW have stated for motor swaps, that the engine that can be put in can only have 20% more power than the original motor from the car from factory. so i can only put in an engine that has less than 200 and bit hp. the new laws suck so much. which means rb25/26 is out of the question. i can get away with an l28 cause they look just like an l26 and no one will see. id register it first as non turbo, than do the turbo setup after haha. also the weight of the engine can only add/remove upto 10% of the original weight of the entire car.

 

the rules are so dumb, your allowed to modify the original engine as much as you want (as long as pollution gear/sound etc are legal) , which just defeat the purpose of the rules

 

i only found out about these rules about a week ago, otherwise id be putting in a vg30dett outa a 300zx wreck i have at home.

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the new NCOP laws for NSW have stated for motor swaps, that the engine that can be put in can only have 20% more power than the original motor from the car from factory.

That rule applies only if you do not wish to get engineering approval. Capacity is the main part of it but if you're over 20%.... That would mean my L28 Powered Zed would need engineer cert for modified brakes and increase in power.

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yeh you missed somthing hehe. the new NCOP laws for NSW have stated for motor swaps, that the engine that can be put in can only have 20% more power than the original motor from the car from factory.

 

singhy, have you actually read the NCOP VSB14 document or did someone just tell you that you can only have 20% more power? Here's a link to the engine section http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/NCOP3_Section_LA_Engine_01jan2011_v3.pdf

 

Clause 1.2 only states that engines with greater than 20% more power need to be certified, it doesn't say you cant do it.

 

I had a meeting with my engineer two weeks ago (Vic has been operating under VSB14 for nearly a year now) and he has no issues with me fitting an engine that is double the power of the original.

 

1.2 MODIFICATIONS REQUIRING CERTIFICATION UNDER LA CODES

The following is a summary of modifications that may be performed under Section LA:

 Fitting engines greater than 120% of original power and/or engine mass;

 Fitting performance engines;

 Fitting engines from non original equipment sources;

 Installing a supercharger or turbocharger; and

 Modifying the engine and engine components that results in an increase in engine power

of more than 20% and/or affects exhaust emissions.

 

Clause 2.13 is the key clause as this defines maximum engine capacity using a formula based on weight.

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Beat me to it Scoota!

You're right on the money with your last post but KatoKid. I did read the whole document so don't anyone else be listening to your mate down the Local with the WRX, get it straight from the engineer you will be working with and work out solutions that will suit you both.

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singhy, have you actually read the NCOP VSB14 document or did someone just tell you that you can only have 20% more power? Here's a link to the engine section http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/NCOP3_Section_LA_Engine_01jan2011_v3.pdf

 

Clause 1.2 only states that engines with greater than 20% more power need to be certified, it doesn't say you cant do it.

 

I had a meeting with my engineer two weeks ago (Vic has been operating under VSB14 for nearly a year now) and he has no issues with me fitting an engine that is double the power of the original.

 

1.2 MODIFICATIONS REQUIRING CERTIFICATION UNDER LA CODES

The following is a summary of modifications that may be performed under Section LA:

 Fitting engines greater than 120% of original power and/or engine mass;

 Fitting performance engines;

 Fitting engines from non original equipment sources;

 Installing a supercharger or turbocharger; and

 Modifying the engine and engine components that results in an increase in engine power

of more than 20% and/or affects exhaust emissions.

 

Clause 2.13 is the key clause as this defines maximum engine capacity using a formula based on weight.

 

 

looks as though my local engineer doesnt know his rules, i went and had a chat and he stated 'it is not possible anymore to fit blah blah blah' 'it needs to be under so and so etc'.

 

Thanks for clearing all that up , wow i really should read up more on stuff.

 

just a curiousity, how much was your engineering certificate cost you???

 

if its alot, ill still stick to not having a certificate, because im short on funds atm

 

thanks again guys

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just a curiousity, how much was your engineering certificate cost you???

 

if its alot, ill still stick to not having a certificate, because im short on funds atm

 

Mine will be around $1,200.

 

Each engineer is different, interprets the rules differently and will either make or break a conversion based on their own opinion.

 

If you're tight for money then the decision is pretty well made for you........

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Mine will be around $1,200.

 

Each engineer is different, interprets the rules differently and will either make or break a conversion based on their own opinion.

 

If you're tight for money then the decision is pretty well made for you........

 

esshh, looks like an r20det for now, when i actually get a REAL job and not casual job inbetween uni, i may go down the engineering approval way (or wait for my bro to finish uni, hes doing mechanical and thinking about joining engineering approval jobs thingo hehe)

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Out of interest could you fit an RB30 turbo to a 240Z and still road register it in NSW? I know it comes very close based on the weight formula. What is the weight of the car that engineers use when certifying, and I am assuming you can use the heaviest weight eg, all options which for a 240 is probably A/C and auto transmission. The relevant weight figure should remove a lot of confusion, after that, just multiply the capacity and you can find out if it can be done. Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent... :)

 

If anyone knows the relevant weights for the 240, 260 coupe and 2+2 could they please post these up. Cheers.  :)

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Out of interest could you fit an RB30 turbo to a 240Z and still road register it in NSW? I know it comes very close based on the weight formula. What is the weight of the car that engineers use when certifying, and I am assuming you can use the heaviest weight eg, all options which for a 240 is probably A/C and auto transmission. The relevant weight figure should remove a lot of confusion, after that, just multiply the capacity and you can find out if it can be done. Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent... :)

 

If anyone knows the relevant weights for the 240, 260 coupe and 2+2 could they please post these up. Cheers.  :)

 

its the orginal weight of the car NOT including extras such as A/C setups etc. as for power, its the original power of the car, say for example 200hp+ 20% is the total, in this case an engine that is under 240hp.

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Table LA1 Recommended Maximum Engine Capacity

MASS OF VEHICLE

Maximum Engine Capacity (refer to notes below)

Naturally Aspirated Turbo/Supercharged

All vehicles originally weighing

less than 800 kg.

Original mass (kg) x 3.0

= max. capacity in cc’s

Original mass (kg) x 2.5

= max. capacity in cc’s

All vehicles originally weighing

between 800 kg and 1100 kg.

Original mass (kg) x 4.0

= max. capacity in cc’s

Original mass (kg) x 2.75

= max. capacity in cc’s

All vehicles originally weighing

more than 1100 kg.

Original mass (kg) x 5.0

= max. capacity in cc’s

Original mass (kg) x 3.0

= max. capacity in cc’s

 

So a 240Z, assume 1050 KG, the max engine is 2.75 x 1050= 2887.5cc

 

Drat!!! So we need to convince them that a 240Z weighs 1091KG to run a 3 liter turbo Grrr......

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Remember.

 

If you are quoting a 240 at 1050 kg's dry weight, you have to add for 10 litres of fuel, cooling and lubricats fluids.

 

I had the same issue with mine as it came in short of 1100 kg's but adding the fluid weights which is totally acceptable to establish the weight pushed it over 1100 kg's

 

Cheers

 

John

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Cheers John,

 

so from that they actually weigh the completed car rather than go on manufacturers published figures? I had assumed that they went on published figures to date. If they use actual weights then you may just squeeze a 3 liter turbo in. This would allow the use of the RB30 and 2JZ. I had assumed that this weight rule was why you didn't see any RB30 or 2J zeds floating around and why people opted for the RB25/26 or the 1J. Perhaps people don't see the need for 400+HP in an S30  ;D

 

Cheers

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LOL

 

No, Nissan released the weight of each model as dry weight, so a 240Z at 1050kg was less fluids, like cooling system, engine oil, trans and diff oil, fuel.

 

1 litre of fluids is anout a kilo, so add up all the fluids including fuel and a road going 240z stock standard is probably over 1100 kg's

 

Cheers

 

John

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OK that is better I knew something was missing "not needing to be certified" was the missing bit. Your rules are much the same as we have here in NZ. The 20% HP limit applies here to but we can't do any engine conversion without a cert. So here in NZ the rb20det is out without a cert.

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esshh, looks like an r20det for now, when i actually get a REAL job and not casual job inbetween uni, i may go down the engineering approval way (or wait for my bro to finish uni, hes doing mechanical and thinking about joining engineering approval jobs thingo hehe)

 

Pretty sure you will still need an engineers certificate because you're putting a turbo engine into an n/a car, regardless of capacity.  Best to have a good read before you do anything.

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Me thinks you need to have a good read through the rules YOURSELF Singhy, rather than listening to the advise you've been given.

The guys here have a pretty good handle on the rules. And it sounds like you're just trying to avoid an engineers certificate.

Bottom line is, unless you stay L series. You will need an Engineers Certificate!

 

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My opinion is if your tight on money at the moment don't do engine swaps. Instead get the car on the road with an L-series engine, maybe do some cheap mods that can help performance, like some mild port work, a camshaft and electronic ignition with a good tune. Enjoy it and drive it around, save your pennies for the engine you want, do your research and then make a decision after talking with engineers.

 

You will need uprated brakes, suspension etc.. with an engine swap it will all add up quickly. Also a Z standard doesn't have an LSD so you won't be able to easily get all that power to the ground anyway until you fit an LSD and maybe also improve the rear drive shafts. Reality is, it's going to cost you good money to do it right.

 

Hence I'm of the opinion that you should stick with the original motor for now and do your engine swap later. University Students also need beer money :).

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Singhy,

 

From my experience with engine swaps, work out what you think it will cost then double it , and you may get close to what it will end up costing !!!

So 1+ on Gav's comments.

 

Nothing worse than starting a project then running out funds  :(

 

Cheers

 

PB

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i may to ask a few different engineers cause the one basically said 'no you cant do anything hehe)... but i thought it says in rules that if it fits under all the size/weight etc, cept if the engine is turboed then its orginal mass x 3.0 , and the engine just has to fit under that size .... but ill ask another engineer about it first.

 

i havnt got the original engine or running gear and this car already has a z31 lsd and drive shafts fitted ( so no problems there)

 

i dont think engine swaps cost that much when you do everything yourself , including fab, paint... i never really get someone else to do stuff for me (cept me old man and brother) .  my bro and i built a z31 with a z32 running gear, s13 front and rear end (inc subframe) and all paint and panel work  for under $3000, including cost of the car ($400).

 

but ill have a better read of the rules and think about it and might end up just buying a l28 for now  :)

 

thanks guys

 

 

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