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Z432 rims on YAJ

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Rb26zed, you are pretty well spot on, thats all good!

 

Alan T, everytime you post, is a little more information and detail, and i would like to hope, that one day, i can get enough  to be able to place a case.

 

It would seem that the cars built up by Nissan, but not necassarily supplied to others ie public, , as "works" rally cars, (as opposed to cars prepared for pure competition, these are deemed as " competition variants" and are not accepted), and as the rally cars were prepared by the Nissan factory ( does not matter which plant or where) for use on public roads, by very well known name drivers, the elegibility guys here, and possibly now New Zealand, may reconsider the application, and re-open it.

 

Others in the past, for sure, have tried on many occaisons, to put forward the Options Parts Catalogue, with argument of " it was available for purchase" etc, but due to past known and accepted Group 4 use, which is not acceptable for "production Sports" racing rules here in Australia, it has never been able to get the OK.

 

We have all been on the circuit/racing mods bandwagon. No-one here has even thought to explore what was done by Nissan in the rally program.

How much information is available?

Car details and soecifications?

Pictures? Period date publications?

 

Could Kazuo Hioki san, be adked to , on letterhead, furnish details?

After all, we are wishing very much to preserve and continue with the Heritage of Nissan, and the rally cars were part of that. It would be a "loophole" but just like others have exploited others manufacturers, why not give it a crack.

 

I just do not have sufficient information, to put a case up.

Any and all hepl appreciated!

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Rb26zed, you are pretty well spot on, thats all good!

 

How is he "spot on"? If this was all as simple as Nissan having built a car for their own use then it would have been solved years ago.

 

I think the problem you've got is the same one that has been had elsewhere, namely that it all hinges on a model with the required parts fitted having been sold to the general public as a showroom model. That's what they mean by the word "supplied".

 

We have all been on the circuit/racing mods bandwagon. No-one here has even thought to explore what was done by Nissan in the rally program.

How much information is available?

Car details and soecifications?

Pictures? Period date publications?

 

I should think that the reason the works rally car angle hasn't been pursued is because it doesn't help. I've been involved in helping to get the FIA agree to 15" wheel use for Historic Rally use ( largely necessary due to tyre supply issues ) and the route taken was the opposite of that you are proposing: ie we used period use proof of 15" wheels on works circuit racing cars to help the argument for current historic rally use. But the requirement was simply to prove 'use in period' ( by anybody... ) on the model in question ( 240Z ) and therefore it was actually quite easy. What you are trying to do is more difficult, as it hinges on much more than 'use in period', doesn't it?

 

There's plenty of details on the cars and their specs, and pictures ( you'll likely have to pay for them ) as well as period documentation in the form of road tests and event reports. It's all 'out there', but - like I keep saying - I don't think that's your problem... 

 

Could Kazuo Hioki san, be adked to, on letterhead, furnish details?

I just do not have sufficient information, to put a case up.

Any and all hepl appreciated!

 

I honestly don't think he will be able to help you, but there's nothing stopping you asking him.

 

I would suggest a more logical route would be to prepare a formal pre-representation to the appropriate officials at CAMS, and ask them exactly what you need to prove to them, and how they want you to prove it. Get that in writing. Once they give you the target, then you have something to aim for. If you go back to them with a properly prepared case that gives them exactly what they challenge you to provide, then they can't argue with it, can they? There's no point in trying to do anything without knowing exactly what they require. I'll try to help if I can, but at the moment it all sounds like it hinges on this question of "supply", which I interpret ( because it's the same as what the RAC MSA require over here... ) as being all about equipment fitted to cars as supplied to the general public.   

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Is Jason's requirement-

Sold to public?

or

Used by Nissan on public roads?

 

They are very different!

The CAMS elegibility guys here just require supporting documentation, that, a manufacturer made a car, at their factory, with the items fitted, for use on public roads.

 

Ie it had to be registerable, ( nowhere do they say it had to be sold to the public, or supplied)

The other "way" was for individual car dealers, of new cars, to fit the items, as "special" order for a customer of a new car.

Here in Australia, Alan Hamilton Porsche, in South Yarra, fitted many items, at customer request and order, onto a new Porsche.

In the UK, just one small new MGB dealer, fitted a Weber sidedraft onto a B.

As i advised above, the Morgan Motor Company wrote a letter stating their cars had items able to be fitted, for use on public roads.

 

The 240 and 260 Rally cars, with 7x14 rims, four piston calipers, vented front rotors, disc braked rear end, and triple carbs, are what is required.

 

The rest we already have, ie oil coolers, lighter weight, no body embellishments, ie bumpers, removal of some interior, removal of emmissions requirements, engine , gearbox internals are free, LSD diffs and various ratios.

All we want, as above is rims, 7" is good, 8" better, discs bigger/better, and carbs.

FWIW, i personally will loose out big time if we can get carbs up, as mine is a 280Z on injection, unless it can be shown Nissan supplied some sort of better/bigger injection system, for USA market, on the later Rally cars, but i am sure they did not, as that has been researched as much as i was able to.

 

Alan T Hs30, can you please provide what you know of in this regard, as per above, or post links to sites.

I will then get this printed off, to add to the submission to CAMS.

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Jason,

 

 

Im sure you have come across this site but if you havent here you go-

 

 

http://www.z-point.nl/

 

 

there are multiple articles. one stating that "takashi wakabayashi and his team in nissan engineering laboratories performed the mods"

 

 

I know this isn't concrete but it will add to the case.

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Benny, that llks an excellent site, but, i cant seem to find any period articles or documentation or brochures, copies of?

If there are any can you please link to them.

 

Right, ALL, i have just, today, recieved a short two line email, from the Chair of the Historic Production Based Elegibility Committee, which responds, recommends and reports directly  to CAMS Historic Commission,  in Australia, quote as follows,

" Cars are permitted factory fitted (not dealer fitted) options for Group S"

 

He requires evidence of this. Not heresay, he said she said, or I remember when, i saw a photo , he has restored a car, etc etc.

 

The rally cars were built at a Nissan factory, they were built for use on public roads, they were built for a number of people to use them, and as such, no matter that it did not occur, but, if Nissan had been asked, "can I buy one to try to win XXX championship or rally" i very much doubt they would have said NO.

Fact is, as Alan T says, they were built by a factory that was an arm of Nissan.

 

Can i please be furnished with as much documents to support this?

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Here is the article i was talking about

 

 

http://www.z-pointt.nl/70racwebsite_images/File0001kopie.jpg

 

 

http://www.z-pointt.nl/70racwebsite_images/File0002kopie.jpg

 

 

http://www.z-pointt.nl/70racwebsite_images/File0003kopie.jpg

 

 

this is under

 

 

"The Works Rally"-->"In 1970"-->"RAC Rally"

 

 

I suggest going through all of the site as there are articles scattered throughout with heaps of photo evidence.

 

 

Ben

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there are also plenty of photos showing mikunis and wheels though i think they are only 14x6 if the article i linked is correct

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Thanks Benny.

We do need to show that, in some documentation, that those rims were at least 7 inches wide, (diam is not an ssue)

Nissan, as per HS30 , or maybe someone else??, had the special rally car mag wheels at both 6" and 7"

We need 7"

Photos showing the brakes, the brakes through the wheels, and showing a 3/4 view that has a vented rotor will help tremendously, as well as information, in writing from the period, with details, stuff that may something like,,,

"for the bitumen rally stages we fit the wider 7" magnesium wheel, with a special cut slick tyre" etc etc

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Right, ALL, i have just, today, recieved a short two line email, from the Chair of the Historic Production Based Elegibility Committee, which responds, recommends and reports directly  to CAMS Historic Commission,  in Australia, quote as follows,

" Cars are permitted factory fitted (not dealer fitted) options for Group S"

 

Here are some quotes from the web pages of the Group S Racing Association:

 

Based on mildly modified production sports cars, Group S is designed to provide a forum for competitors to race cars from the '50s, '60s and '70s in a form similar to period club racing.

 

.....the Historic Commission has maintained that the rules for Group S remain largely within the spirit of those rules that were in use in Australian production sports car racing in the period of the mid-fifties to mid-sixties, with the modification baseline being what was sold from the showroom floor by the relevant marque dealership.

 

Eligible marques for Group S have been decided by the Historic Commission on the basis of production runs and production specifications. FIA homologation is not a relevant factor and plays no part in the rules for Group S – a common misunderstanding.

 

And from the 2012 CAMS Manual of Motor Sport, Group Sc Production Sports Cars ( 1970-1977 ) eligibility pages:

 

Factory-built, competitive variants of standard production vehicles are not eligible for this group, but could be eligible for Historic Groups Q or T, subject to specific application.

 

It seems to me that they are being quite clear on the meaning of "factory fitted", "production runs" and "standard production vehicles".

 

I don't think the works rally cars are going to swing it for you.

 

 

The rally cars were built at a Nissan factory, they were built for use on public roads, they were built for a number of people to use them, and as such, no matter that it did not occur, but, if Nissan had been asked, "can I buy one to try to win XXX championship or rally" i very much doubt they would have said NO.

 

The fact is that they were approached, they were asked, and the answer was "no".  The cars were built for Nissan's own use, and - basically - they could not build enough of them to supply their own needs let alone those of others. There were constant shortages of spare parts and complete cars, and the in-field operations ( mainly operating from ad-hoc bases in Africa, France and the UK ) were stretched by cars being damaged and even destroyed, sometimes on event recces. The whole thing - 1970 through 1973 in the main - was done on a budget that was, quite simply, inadequate. The only cars that got into privateer or private team / factory-affiliated hands were already well used. They didn't sell new, ready-to-use works 240Z rally cars....

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there are also plenty of photos showing mikunis and wheels though i think they are only 14x6 if the article i linked is correct

 

Nissan used both 6j x 14" ( in Aluminium as well as Magnesium versions ) and 7j x 14" Magnesium wheels - manufactured for them by Kobe Seiko - on their works rally 240Zs and 260Zs. The 6j width was sometimes used just on the front of the cars ( particularly in snowy conditions ) with 7j on the rear. 99% of the time they were running on the 7j x 14" wheels, with tyres appropriate to the stage / event.   

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It's obvious that the rules are trying to limit this kind of modification. The problem is other marques have been allowed to go beyond the face value of the rules, which means we also need to try and do the same for Datsuns now.

And let's be honnest that's what racing is all about. Being able to push the limits of what is allowed, otherwise there would be stock Porsches running in this class right now...

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Alan HS30 , i am aware of the regs, and your underlined bits, but, when other marques have managed to slip things in, due to nefarious past occurances which were able to be proven, well, why not the Datsuns.

I have been involved in Sus motor sport for over 30 years, i race a S, T, O, U cars, am looking at a quick  gp2b build, i have been a CAMS level 2 scrutineer, and am a CAMS Technical Machine Examiner.

The chair of the HPB is a long term mate, and has built up two Datsun S cars, i own his last one.

 

When i tell him about the Rally side of Datsun, which he knew zip about, his comment was along lines of, "ok, go for it, put up a case, show old period stuff"

I know what will be accepted, and can sift through the stuff that wont be.

 

Fascinating to note the CAMS rule does not apply to the three marques i mention above.

 

Are you able to provide a range of documents, pictures, brochures, specificatiobs, news repoerts, magazine articles, event reports, that have specific information on, brakes, rims, carburettors. The other car mods are superflous to what is required.

 

When i explained to him, the chair of the committee, that Nissan had actually made cars, brand new, for use on public roads in Africa, aeurope and the UK, with the items we need, fitted, at factory level, he said, "get whatever information you can, it cannot be heresay or second hand romours or scuttlebutt"

 

That sounds pretty bloody positive to me.

Do we persist with this, or just forget about Datsuns and trying to make them competitive against the others that have been granted the concessions.

 

Can you help us please?

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The Autocar link that Benny put up, has a quote at the start of the story that is interesting.

It is a big success ther and a few examples have already run in SCCA production car racing

 

It also talks about-

*The modifications being done at the Datsun lab in Japan.

*Having an LSD.

*Triple Solex Carbies.

*Fibreglass doors, bonnet and rear hatch.

*Plastic side and rear windows

*Twice pipes

*Electric fuel pump

*215/70/14 tyres (no rim width)

 

Don't know if it tells you any real info that would help with CAMS though Jason  :-\

 

Good luck  ;)

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The Autocar link that Benny put up, has a quote at the start of the story that is interesting.

It also talks about-

*The modifications being done at the Datsun lab in Japan.

*Having an LSD.

*Triple Solex Carbies.

*Fibreglass doors, bonnet and rear hatch.

*Plastic side and rear windows

*Twice pipes

*Electric fuel pump

*215/70/14 tyres (no rim width)

Simon, in combination with other material, that stuff above is extremely usefull.

We already have freedoms in side/rear glass, fuel pumps, exhausts, LSD,

It is the carbs, brakes and rims.

The plastic body parts wont get up, i know that.

That fat tyre size is a very good indication that rims were 7" HS30H wrote a post above about 6 and 7" rims, unfortunately, no matter how much Alan T can tell us via who did what etc, a website comnent is not sufficient as far as the Elegibility committee is concerned.

There is no way a car manufacturer would fit a 215/70 x14 tyre on a 5.5" rim ( std produvtion rim width) to explain, CAMS Vehicle Specification Sheet for Z cars in Gp S allow a 6x14 and a 205/60x14 tyre, even though stock std was  a5.5 rim and a 175/70x14, from factory

 

Please, anyone, if you recall any "pld" articles or dicuments, scan them, link them, let me know.

 

Don't know if it tells you any real info that would help with CAMS though Jason  :-\

 

Good luck  ;)

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Jason... perhaps get onto the owner of the website i sent you.

 

 

actually you have Facebook. Here is his Facebook-

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/guus.vanderbol

 

 

you may have some luck getting something out of him... he seems to know his stuff and possibly has other documents.

 

 

Ben

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Thanks Benny, will do.

I think i stuffed up my reply to Simon, above, i somehow magically stuck my text insude his quote, now it is all blue, and in the middle.

Blardy numpty intrawebs user!!

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I think i stuffed up my reply to Simon, above, i somehow magically stuck my text insude his quote, now it is all blue, and in the middle.

Blardy numpty intrawebs user!!

 

Yes, you are clearly retarded  ;D

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When i tell him about the Rally side of Datsun, which he knew zip about, his comment was along lines of, "ok, go for it, put up a case, show old period stuff"

I know what will be accepted, and can sift through the stuff that wont be.

 

I'm not going to supply you with a lot of "stuff" that you can "sift through" and decide what you will use or not! It reminds me of a guy who contacted me out of the blue and asked me to put "all" my photos on a CD and send it to him, just because he wanted to see them. Of course, he might well have misunderstood the enormity of what he was asking for....

 

If you know what will be accepted, why not tell me EXACTLY what it is, so that I can see whether I have it or not? You have been talking about things like "brochures", but there were no brochures for the works 240Zs rally cars. Why would there need to be? Most of their compliance was contained within the FIA homologation papers ( which CAMS won't accept for your Group Sc ) and any factory documentation was - by its very nature - for internal use and therefore private. Journalists - as you will have seen from the 'Given The Works' period magazine article - pretty much had to guess what the specs of the cars were by looking at them....

 

So, how can what you want be proved? It seems to me that photos alone are not going to cut it anyway. 

 

When i explained to him, the chair of the committee, that Nissan had actually made cars, brand new, for use on public roads in Africa, aeurope and the UK, with the items we need, fitted, at factory level, he said, "get whatever information you can, it cannot be heresay or second hand romours or scuttlebutt"

 

That sounds pretty bloody positive to me.

Do we persist with this, or just forget about Datsuns and trying to make them competitive against the others that have been granted the concessions.

 

Can you help us please?

 

Sorry, but I still think that quote from CAMS ( "Factory-built, competitive variants of standard production vehicles are not eligible for this group...." ) knocks your ball out of the park. The works rally cars were exactly what CAMS specifically proscribe. You're trying to make it sound like they were "supplied" in the sense that CAMS mean ( to the general public, from the showroom floor ) when they were not.

 

I would fully support your attempts to level the playing field, but I don't think this is the way to do it. They are going to see what you come up with, and then throw it out.

 

But tell me what you think the best thing to come up with would be. What's the Silver Bullet?

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I'm off racing this weekend at Eastern ck NSW, will catch up with some of the elegibility and historic commision guys, and throw what i am discovering, at them. Lets see what they have to say.

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