Z432 rims on YAJ

[thriller]

http://page7.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/g96942496

Interesting, to say the least.

[HS30-H]

They are not the OEM Fairlady Z432 type magnesium wheels, they are Nissan works 'Rally Mag' wheels. Both were made by Kobe Seiko, but they are quite different.

 

The 432 wheels were 5.5j x 14" in Magnesium alloy and had solid spokes. The works Rally Mags were usually 7j x 14" in Magnesium alloy ( although they made a few in 6j, and in Aluminium ) and had vented spokes.

 

The YAJ seller 'kp47works' has - let's say - a 'reputation' in Japan. Deal with him at your peril..... 

 

 

[dat2kman]

Can this yahoo japan page be translated?

I get the pricing, and the models, but nothing else.

 

What i am trying to determine is the size of these rims! 14 x what?

7" is what i need documentation on.

Alan HS30, what documentstion, again, is thete about actual cars being supplied with these rims in the 7" width, along with the four piston caliper and vented rotor, other than what i already have, which is the Nissan Option Parts catalogues and price lists?

 

Ie, how can we show and prove that these  cars were supplied fitted with goid stuff by Nissan to someone?

 

Many hanks, and to whomever can work out a translatoed version, pist back on here!

[bluerat]

Same as these?

[HS30-H]

What i am trying to determine is the size of these rims! 14 x what?

7" is what i need documentation on.

Alan HS30, what documentstion, again, is thete about actual cars being supplied with these rims in the 7" width, along with the four piston caliper and vented rotor, other than what i already have, which is the Nissan Option Parts catalogues and price lists?

 

Ie, how can we show and prove that these  cars were supplied fitted with goid stuff by Nissan to someone?

 

It's an auction description and it's written to attract people to the auction,  not to be used as historical evidence. I wouldn't trust 'kp47works' any further than I could throw him either, but that's another story...!

 

The Nissan works 7j x 14" 'Rally Mag' wheels manufactured by Kobe Seiko for Nissan's works rally team were never sold to the general public, and were never fitted as standard equipment to any cars that were sold to the general public. Sorry, but that's it.   

[d3c0y]

Use them with your new set of Titanium velocity stacks!!! only $100ea

[luvemfast]

Use them with your new set of Titanium velocity stacks!!! only $100ea

$600 for tubes that should be in a box or have socks on them? 

[dat2kman]

I have a set of Tubes, for 50mm Mikuni,

Original Nissan ones. Brand spanking shiny alloy new!

What are they worth???

Sorry, it is a set of four, for the Option 50 mm PHH Solex's that were available on the Datsun Sports 2000's

 

Any luck on a translat version?

If so it adds to a file i will present to CAMS seeking to get rims and brakes for Group S race Z's.

As Alan T above explains never fitted by dealer, or sold on a new car, but, i would like to find out if Nissan supplied/ provided/gave cars to teams for rally use, they would have then been road registered, as Nissan supplied them, with brakes rims, carbys etc

[NZeder]

If so it adds to a file i will present to CAMS seeking to get rims and brakes for Group S race Z's.

As Alan T above explains never fitted by dealer, or sold on a new car, but, i would like to find out if Nissan supplied/ provided/gave cars to teams for rally use, they would have then been road registered, as Nissan supplied them, with brakes rims, carbys etc

So as supplied by Nissan is enough - not as sold...just supplied by Nissan aka from the Manufacture aka Works supplied. So you just need documentation that shows the car was supplied by Nissan with these parts fitted - is that not what the FIA papers show they were the parts fitted to the S30 for competition and most of the parts were used on the works cars aka Nissan supplied vehicles - ok Works cars were not sold to the public like other marques might have done - however some have ended up in private hands.

[dat2kman]

Mike, yes, if we can show that Nissan supplied cars with items fitted, ie to the African rally teams, or whoever the team or mob wete that did the Monte Carlo, or any other teams.

 

Nissan did exactly this in early 1980's with the up specced 240RS model, that was then built up into a Group B rally car. Blydenstein UK was a "customer" for 240RS

 

As a rally car had to be registered, that is sufficient for "road use" purpose and is more an argument point to get this going, as opposed to a car supplied to a race team, which would be either Group 2 or 4, the race/circuit team would have then bought option parts, but in most cases, back in the day, Nissan was "bach doir" supporting many teams with low or no cost cars and parts.

CAMS Australia claim that is more for "race purposes" and not sold/supplied as a "normal

" car for road use.

Bingo, rally cars were "normal" cars??, fir road use,

This is the avenue i will take.

I have spoken with CAMS elegibility officials, the response is,  " a car must have been supplied, with the items, for road use"  sounds like rally cars.

 

Alan T, if monitoring, what infirmation or documentation  has survived, on the rally cars supplied, possibly Africa or with the cars driven by Fall and Pond, ie the Europe team cars?

[d3c0y]

$600 for tubes that should be in a box or have socks on them? 

Pull the socks off for dyno days/car shows/while it's sitting on stands in the garage haha. When else can you see them anyway 

[Riceburner]

Pull the socks off for dyno days/car shows/while it's sitting on stands in the garage haha. When else can you see them anyway 

 

Meh, who needs filters. My engine's so wild it eats rocks 

 

So the factory rally cars can't be used as an example? Would Carl Beck have any info, he's another guru in that area isn't he? I may be wrong but there seems to be a lot of secrecy or mystery around 240z racing history 

[Johnboy]

Meh, who needs filters. My engine's so wild it eats rocks 

 

Eats rocks one week rebuilt the next!

 

 

[dat2kman]

Meh, who needs filters. My engine's so wild it eats rocks 

 

So the factory rally cars can't be used as an example? Would Carl Beck have any info, he's another guru in that area isn't he? I may be wrong but there seems to be a lot of secrecy or mystery around 240z racing history 

No far from it, the factiry rally cars CAN be used as examples, as they were required to be registered for use on public roads all over.

 

It is the early circuit racing supplied cars that are dubious as to how they were originally supplied ex factory, ie as a basic car, then, each race team would use option parts.

Nissan themselves were more involved in rally program.

This may be a better avenue to pursue for the goid bits being fitted.

The pics of the factory rally rims, with four piston calipers will be needed, along with brichures dicuments details on the cars.

 

I have all this for 240RS, but that model is not on any Historic race categories in Aus, due to being manufactured out of the period.

Carl Beck? Can he be appraised/made aware of all this stuff above?

[Riceburner]

Eats rocks one week rebuilt the next!

 

 

was a bad joke  I do race with no filters though.

 

Jason, this is a link to one of his sites with lots of rally info

 

http://www.z-point.nl/

[Johnboy]

was a bad joke  I do race with no filters though.

 

 

so was my comment!

[HS30-H]

Mike, yes, if we can show that Nissan supplied cars with items fitted, ie to the African rally teams, or whoever the team or mob wete that did the Monte Carlo, or any other teams.

 

Bingo, rally cars were "normal" cars??, fir road use,

This is the avenue i will take.

 

Alan T, if monitoring, what infirmation or documentation  has survived, on the rally cars supplied, possibly Africa or with the cars driven by Fall and Pond, ie the Europe team cars?

 

I'm not aware of Nissan supplying / selling / giving even a single Works 240Z rally car as a new car, ready to go rallying to any privateer or team, in period. They built the genuine Works cars for their own use, and the only time they got into private ownership was after they had been used by the Works teams. As used cars. 

 

So the factory rally cars can't be used as an example? Would Carl Beck have any info, he's another guru in that area isn't he?

 

Trying to be polite here, but I wouldn't call Carl Beck any kind of "guru" on the Works cars.....

 

My opinion - take it for what it's worth - is that the Works 240Z rally cars are not going to help with this. They were not sold to privateers or outside teams, let alone the general public, so I can't see how they can help in legalising any of their parts for an Australian race series that wants to see proof of sale and use of said parts on new cars as sold by Nissan / Datsun dealers in period.

 

The American / Canadian angle has - surely - a better chance of helping? We know that the authorised Nissan dealerships in North America added many parts to new 240Zs in the showroom in order to add ( their own ) profit to them, and this very often involved taking off the original steel wheels and hubcaps and bolting on a set of aftermarket alloy wheels. If that scenario can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt I'd be very surprised indeed, and therefore that must be the answer to the wheel problem on it's own...?

[NZeder]

The American angle re what dealers were doing is a good one for spoilers also. Many dealers were installing BRE front and rear spoilers sourced from BRE directly. I know this as a fact as my mate Ricky with his BRE licensed tribute racecar has been told by Pete Brock (of BRE fame) his company was indeed supplying dealers with spoilers.

[dat2kman]

Alan# hs30,

We may be able to put a case forward based on that Nissan factory built up a car (rally car) to be able to be registered for use on a road in the worl, that was built with the items we are trying to get through.

 

The elegibility guy i am in contact with at CAMS has stated that i must "show proof that a manufacturer of a car, supplied a car, new, with the items fitted, for use on public toads"

 

He has said, "the items cannot have been fitted after the car was made, as optional accessories or parts"

 

I read the first statement as our avenue of address, ie all we need is period information, such as a detailed build sheet, how cars were prepared, what parts were fitted, and what events and years the new, as manufactured by Nissan, for the use on public roads, were made.

 

The Morgan Motor Company in Wales England, has issued a written statement, in 1992, stating that as a manufacturer of the Morgan Plus 8, they had available as options, many performance enhancements, including bigger carburettors, brakes, alloy radiators ( ? ) wider wheels of 15" diam. These were for a staid British Gentlemans car, built in the late 60's/ early 70's.

They state, on the letter, on company letterhead, that all these items were fitted on some new cars prior to taking delivery.

No other documentary proof, in period, was furnished, just the letter in 1992

I have a photocopy of that letter.

Consequently, all Morgan Plus 8's racing in Australia, are fully equipped!

The interesting thing, why would a maker of a Pom car, where the annual temps are quite low, make a alloy multi core radiator as optional fitment, when everything British was perfect, and all cars used brass/copper radiators??

That interesting titbit had quite a few eyebrows raised, but, it was not questioned, as it was on official company letterhead.

Alan T, how well are you aquainted with Kazuo Hioki san, or Minarti Iwatomo san ( 2ic at Nismo).

Could they be asked to write some letters on Nissan letterhead? Both have met myself, and are aware of my efforts with historic racing here in Australia

[NZeder]

I would take a copy of said letter too if one is written - it would help with out Schedule K rules here in NZ - or at least Schedule CR no doubt.

[HS30-H]

Alan# hs30,

We may be able to put a case forward based on that Nissan factory built up a car (rally car) to be able to be registered for use on a road in the worl, that was built with the items we are trying to get through.

 

The elegibility guy i am in contact with at CAMS has stated that i must "show proof that a manufacturer of a car, supplied a car, new, with the items fitted, for use on public toads"

 

He has said, "the items cannot have been fitted after the car was made, as optional accessories or parts"

 

There's the rub though. As far as I am aware - and I've been studying the individual cases of the Works cars for a long time now - Nissan never "supplied" any 240Z or 260Z to a customer or team as a ready-to-use rally car. They just didn't. The cars that got into priovate hands all did so as used cars.

 

If the CAMS eligibility guy is interpreting this as a question of "factory fitted" parts, then you're going to be restricted to what was sold in Japan. That puts you on the back foot already.

 

The Morgan Motor Company in Wales England, has issued a written statement, in 1992, stating that as a manufacturer of the Morgan Plus 8, they had available as options, many performance enhancements, including bigger carburettors, brakes, alloy radiators ( ? ) wider wheels of 15" diam. These were for a staid British Gentlemans car, built in the late 60's/ early 70's.

They state, on the letter, on company letterhead, that all these items were fitted on some new cars prior to taking delivery.

No other documentary proof, in period, was furnished, just the letter in 1992

I have a photocopy of that letter.

Consequently, all Morgan Plus 8's racing in Australia, are fully equipped!

The interesting thing, why would a maker of a Pom car, where the annual temps are quite low, make a alloy multi core radiator as optional fitment, when everything British was perfect, and all cars used brass/copper radiators??

That interesting titbit had quite a few eyebrows raised, but, it was not questioned, as it was on official company letterhead.

 

I've got no doubts that the Morgan letter is a statement of true fact. Morgan were - still are in fact - essentially a bespoke car maker. You could - still can - get a car built to your personal order with your own bespoken choices of non-standard equipment. That's a completely different situation to the one at Nissan in the period we are talking about.

 

The triple core rad question can easily be explained away by the fact that some Morgan customers were having what were - essentially - race cars built for them. Depending on their chosen power unit's state of tune, a triple core rad might very well have been necessary, especially considering the narrow Morgan grille shape. You won't beat that, as companies like Morgan, TVR, Marcos, Lotus and many others were small enough to cater for the whims of their customers, and often had staff who were themselves competitors. You can't compare that to the situation at Nissan; The Nissan customer in Japan would have had to have been buying a racing car that wasn't legal for road use, and he would have had to buy it through the Export / Diplomatic sales office and/or through Nissan Competition ( precursor to NISMO ) at Omori, or from the Competitions Department at Oppama. Proving anything like that is going to be reliant on evidence from the customer too... 

 

Alan T, how well are you aquainted with Kazuo Hioki san, or Minarti Iwatomo san ( 2ic at Nismo).

Could they be asked to write some letters on Nissan letterhead? Both have met myself, and are aware of my efforts with historic racing here in Australia

 

I've met Hioki san several times ( he's a friend of a friend ) but I don't know Iwamoto san to say hello to. None of that is going to help anyway. I just don't think you're going to be able to get anyone from Nissan or NISMO to write a letter about something that never happened, or about something that breaches company confidentiality. Nissan are notorious for sitting on this kind of thing. Their company policy is basically that "...it's none of your business..."...

 

Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear, but as far as I'm aware that's the truth and I'm not going to tell lies, stretch the truth or make up stories. I think your problem is basically one of interpretation of eligibility, and if the series organisers and your fellow competitors have already blocked you and certain cars from competing with them on a level playing field then I think it is going to be all but impossible to find the silver bullet that will turn it all around. Not fair, but racing begins with the writing of the rule book...   

 

 

[d3c0y]

was a bad joke  I do race with no filters though.

Why? My L34 didnt lose any measureable power from running socks on the engine dyno?

 

Dat2kman: Didnt you say that the 911 equipment was dealer fitted anyway? Even if the dealer fitting sports option parts before delivery then the US must have some sort of case for us? From what i have read from your posts the 911 in question doesnt sound like it was shipped from Germany with the equipment fitted?

[NZeder]

So that is the rub - Nissan did not supply the car - they campaigned the car but did not supply to a team in the form Jason needs. So non Nissan works teams had to purchase a stock S30 then add on the additional/optional parts. So much like an Australian V8 Super car today - the car is built not purchased like that.

 

This is why so many in NZ like our T&C rules - take a car - fit any period part that was and can be proved via documentation, used on that make/model in period and you can use that part today - however over the years how people have taken the terms "free" out of context many cars are out side of these more flexible rules. So there is always going to be those that get away with more than others. I do think there is a bit of "it is Japanese" so we don't like it modified that kicks in.

 

There are cars here in NZ that have taken thing like a one or 2 car special that was fitted with a DOHC/16v head on stay a Ford Pinto bottom end have some document that shows a DOHC 16V head was fitted but it does not show a photo of the head or have details like port design etc. So people now fits a YB DOHC 16V to a sudo pinto bottom end and call that the same - well no that head was not used in Period - yes a DOHC 16V but not a YB head so not sure how they get away with it.

[rb26zed]

Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I think HS30-H you have slightly misunderstood datkman's question.

 

I don't think he requires that a car was supplied to anyone with the options. What it appears he needs is proof that it was supplied for road use with these options, ie; rally, as a rally car must be road registered any car built for rally has been built for road use.

 

Supplied for road use and supplied to someone are not necessarily the same.

 

Now I think the question is really, did Nissan build the factory works rally cars? If so then this proof would have to help his case. If not then I am mistaken.

 

 

[HS30-H]

Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I think HS30-H you have slightly misunderstood datkman's question.

 

I don't think he requires that a car was supplied to anyone with the options. What it appears he needs is proof that it was supplied for road use with these options, ie; rally, as a rally car must be road registered any car built for rally has been built for road use.

 

Supplied for road use and supplied to someone are not necessarily the same.

 

Now I think the question is really, did Nissan build the factory works rally cars? If so then this proof would have to help his case. If not then I am mistaken.

 

No, I don't think I misunderstood. The crux of the matter - as far as the people who decide on eligibility are concerned - is whether a car had the components in question fitted on cars that were sold to the general public. If it was all as easy as proving that the Factory made a car with the said components and it got registered for road use, then it would be easy...

 

Nissan did build the 'Works' 240Z and 260Z rally cars ( in their Competitions Department at the Oppama plant ), but they never sold them as products available for sale to the general public. They made some of the components available through their Sports Options lists, but never the whole cars.

 

This fight is a fight that's been going on for years. It should have been settled years ago and settled fairly, but it wasn't and that's almost as much of a problem as the initial problem was. Nissan could have done with homologating a few more cars and parts for race use by selling 'special' Hi-Po versions of HS30 and HLS30-prefixed models in Export territories. Instead all we got was pretty basic sliced white bread versions and a few homologated parts that were only ever useful in FIA Group 4.

 

A triple-carbed '240Z' with LSD, vented 4-pots and 7j wheels would have been a great showroom stock 'Motorsports' model, and would have solved all sorts of eligibility problems. We never got the choice.