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PZG302

Some planned changes to the Marque Sports Rules

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last night attended a Prod Sports Qld meeting and in the discussions there came up an issue that has the potential to affect quite a few of us here planning to race their Zeds on the track.

 

Basically, with the Production/Marque Sports category at the moment there are three braod classes of cars:

  • 2B - Marque Sports Cars, where the Zeds fit
  • 2C - Clubman Sports Cars, basically the Lotus 7 replicas and other restricted design cars, sports 1300
  • 2F - Production sports Cars, less modified 2B cars running on radial treaded tyres

 

There are currently in Vic, NSW and to a lesser extent Qld, some log booked 2A cars running as invited cars, and some technically 2A cars running as logged booked 2B cars. In order to "clean" the category up there may be some changes coming to the eligibility requirements for cars running as 2A cars.

 

At the moment anyone running a Z with an RB or V8 motor in marque sports should be logged as a 2A car as to qualify as a 2B car you must use the L series motor.

 

How does this affect us? The changes proposed will see the 2A rules amended so that any car on the approved Marque Sports/production Sports list will become ineligble to be built as a 2A car. Depending on how the rule is introduced and when, anyone with any motor other than an L series motor in their Z will be unable to run in a CAMS race meeting as a Group 2 car. If you have a 2+2 you may run as a Group 3D sports sedan, however the 2 seater 260's and all 240's will have no where to run unless you revert back to the L series engine.

 

This post is not meant to scare anyone or make you spend a bucket load of money, but just to give a heads up on what is proposed and what may be happening to the categroy and the eligibility of a lot of cars that are being used, or are potentially going to be used at CAMS race meetings.

 

This should not affect anyone presently running at sprint meetings where a 2S licence is required.

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Thanks for posting the update. I and other Z runners have stop competing in the 2B class in Melbourne due to lack of competitiveness given we are racing against modern mega dollar Porsches and big horsepower Cobra's, etc. If they want to "clean up" the class they need to either introduce sub classes based on capacity (ie an under 3 ltr class) &/or an age class (ie pre 1985) so that the older and smaller capacity cars of yester year have a chance. It's not much fun doing a 10 lap race and being lapped inside 6 laps by $300k plus Porsches, not to mention it is dangerous for both having a car coming at you at a lot faster speed and diving underneath you under brakes with their ABS. You end up spending most of the time looking in the rear view mirror instead of racing. The cost to convert them back to Group 2F or Sc is prohibitive so we effectively have no class to race in. I bet there are many a race car sitting in sheds as a consequence.

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Cams are really trying hard to stuff motor racing.

 

What a stupid thing to do. The sportscar class run by cams in Vic is rubbish at the moment and is just full of lambo's and porsches. No one wants to run a nice zed ,alfa because they are outclassed and in danger of getting run of the road by crazy GT cars (just look at the way they have been driving in the GT national series).

 

I still have 2 x 2B logbooked zeds with L series motors so it would be nice to have somewhere to run them without the latest super-cars running me of the road :)

 

I think the Confederation Against Motor Sport need to rethink if they are going down that path.

 

Anyway had my rant

 

Ash

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I couldn't agree more Ash. As a consequence I converted my 2B car to go Tarmac Rallying but would love to still have the opportunity to go on the track and do 10+ lap events in a competitive like class especially given the cost of rallying and there is bugger all required to switch between the two. I am sure that spectators would love to see the 2B cars of yester years when it was at its peak with 40 plus cars on the grid and a very broad range of cars that the guy on the street could relate to & afford. CAMS trully have no idea.

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Part of the move to do this is to limit the speed differentials found between the rockets and those at the back of the field.

 

I think the northerners have given up trying to get the Mexicans back into line regards the rules and are concentrating on their own back yards. Unfortunately as a consequence, there will be some affected by this process if it goes ahead.

 

Also, it's not CAMS doing this but some concerned competitiors trying to make the Sports car situation a little more easier and fun to race at the club level rather than having the GT cars and some of the real rockets, like MX5's with 550HP SR20's bolted in them. Unfortunatley some of us will be affected by the decision if it goes ahead.

 

On a personal note, after a shakedown at QR on Monday, my Zed will be very competitive in Qld and will be a chance for next year's championship up here in 2B. Will be good to get amongts it and hopefully encourage some other Zeds out of the woodwork up here.

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Group Sc for S30's is pretty well buggered isn't it? No level playing field when self interest and euroinfluence rule in this country, most S30's in Q do sprints as a result.

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260det, spot on, i have tried to foster interest in Group S historics with some of the Z guys in Qld, to no avail, and yes when the Eiro Trash with all their vented discs and fat wheels and low profile tyres come barnstorming, it doessn't give much satisfaction. We can show in our Option Parts catalogues that we did have this stuff avail, but the rules of CAMS says No, Cant be done.

So My Z is for sale, and it will prob end up as a Tarmac car, and will be quite a nice set up for that.

 

pzg302, it would seem that the rules are having an attempt at change by a group that is predominated by one make ( Mazda MX5 ?? ) So they should, The Marque Sports fields I see at Wakefield/Bathurst and Eastern Creek, are in the main backmarkers of MX5's, and up front is mega dollar exotica studff. totally unobtainaable by the average Joe.

 

Oh and by the way, thanks for giving me the gig in your Z for the one hour enduro at Morgan Park raceway on Sept 24/25, Qld guys should come on up and have a look see.

Matt fill us all in in the Qld events section!

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It's for this reason I have built myself a regularity car.

 

There are no rules, but here in Perth we have about 10 cars all with L28's running triples and no strokers (street class is what I would describe it) and the competition is great! The competition is tight across all budgets, from front runner to bog standard cars, Everyone spends what they can afford. Best of all, it's against the clock so it doesn't matter about you lap time, it's all consistency. If you do care about lap times then the zeds are front runners outright in the "Production Sports" and "Historic Regularity" fields, only loosing to modern regularity cars with big turbo's when running with the Modern Regularity boys if they have low numbers and the big V8 triumphs when they show up. Most of all, everyone has fun, it's gentleman racing, no contact and respectful.

 

The competition is not regulated but you don't want to spend a heap of money or go turbo because no one else has and you'll be up front by yourself with no one to play with, what is the point?!. You still get 5 laps at a time and the backrunners only get lapped by 1-2 cars in that time, and I've only once lapped more than 3 cars in an event. Best of all, it's cheap and my car is still road registered! I've spent in 6 years of Regularity (including the interstate trips) what the previous owner of my car spends in 1 playing Group N in the mid field.

 

Besides, what gets better than driving your zed to the track, running all day, driving home. I did 1000k's around Bathurst at easter and made the drive from sydney and back through the blue mountains without an issue both ways. I've competed in WA, Bathurst, Philip Island, Eastern Creek and Oran park all in the one car, all for the enjoyment of going fast and I've met great people and competed against a miriad of cars.

 

It will be interesting to see where the game goes next year tho, I'm building my car with fiberglass, motor work (200RWHP with any luck) and aiming for 1050kg wet so I might be pushing the envelope. I also cheated a bit and bought some adjustable control arms. I'm still not on coil-overs tho, but that is likely to happen down the track. However, I hear one guy just sent his whole car over to Stewart Wilkins for an engine build, and when it's 2k in transport alone it's gotta be a super motor. Also the local zed guru/mechanic is trying to out weigh my 260 in his 260 2+2 without fiberglass so that could be a bit of fun.

 

I have no interest to get involved with CAMS silly rules and regulations.

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The same stuff happened in the UK I believe and here in NZ there is sim stuff happening also :( and like Whittie my zed is build so I can do the regularity - rules are simple, must be road legal. There is a speed limit (laptime limit) so if your car is faster then you learn to drive the corners well and back off down the straights so you don't break the bar. Points are awarded based on how consistent you are in your laptime based on your nominated laptime.

 

The other rule - no timing devices allowed in the car so you have judge you are sticking to your nominated laptime.

 

NZ has banned the use of Leaded Race Gas aka AVGAS (there is a process to get dispensation for this rule but this is only a temp solution and I believe competitors should be building there engines for unleaded gas = lower compression) This is a big issue for the classic racing here in NZ + with the push tighten up the rules like those CAMS are making cars might just get put away and that would be a shame.

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I've said this before, but the only way to change is to form a lobby group of like minded people, the more the better, then get members elected on the relevent boards and force the changes you want! If there is enough intrest out there and people willing to push it, change will happen....look at Group C historics, Sports sedans historics, the recent changes to Classic gravel rallying and the fantastic new Clubman rally class.

 

I've heard this guff for over 20 years now on various motorsport subjects as an event organiser, Club President and former CAMS State council delegate, if YOU want change YOU have to do something, It's not up to CAMS, AASA to read your mind, you, and a group of your like minded mates have to tell them.

 

Why not form a Historic Marque sports group and start from there? sometimes you have to fight to win off the track so you can win on the track! If you need a hand please dont hesitate to contact me....

 

Hodgo

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Here in tassie a few years ago the organisers of the local circuit racing meetings realised there were a lot of cars running tarmac rallies, hill climbs, and regularities which didn't have a class to fit into for circuit racing.  They created Targa class which is fairly well open slather as long as you run DOT approved tyres and don't mess with the original shell of the car too much (ie, no space frames, etc).  The class is split into three groups with the first group being open, the second group restricted by minimum lap times, and the third group being restricted by capacity and minimum lap times.  A lot of people bag the class out but it works.  It always has the biggest fields at every round of our state series and people love watching the huge mix of different cars so it pulls spectators through the gates.  If it weren't for the class then circuit racing in Tassie would be all but dead.  It may surprise some people but the lack of rules makes the class cheaper to compete in.  I finished 2nd in the open class last year in a car which owes me around $25-30K.  There's one guy that's very competitive in a R31 Skyline he built for $15K!  I'm sure it would bring more numbers into circuit racing Australia wide if trialed in other states.  It gives people a place to move to from speed type events while still being able to use their car they've spent a lot of time and money building and can't bear to part with.

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Jason (dat2kman) has tried to have rule changes made for his S30 Sc car so he could compete on a more level playing field, got nowhere. In AU there are a bunch of selfish pricks who run events to suit their cars, a $ + ego thing, so why bash your head against that establishment when you don't have to play their games and can do other motorsport without the hassle?  Like others here have already described.

 

The only thing that gets me is targas. Why run your S30 and give the $ + ego lot something to easybeat?

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The only thing that gets me is targas. Why run your S30 and give the $ + ego lot something to easybeat?

 

I don't get this point. S30's often take rights and dominate in the Classic Category in Targa's, why wouldn't you run in it?!

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Late Classic is the one that gets all the publicity, Jon Siddins has tried to win that several times in his 240Z but can't beat the oversize tyred Porkers.

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I've entered a supersprint event at Wakefield Park tomorrow. It's an invitational by the Lotus Club.

I nominated the 2+2 for Marque Sports Class C due to the efi on the L series motor.

Received the confirmation the other day and my and another 260 2+2 are entered in the N3B class which I assume

is non-marque class. When I checked out the cams eligible vehicle list  http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/02_race/c.%202nd%20Category/RA18_Group_2B-2F_EligibleVehicles_Q111.pdf

noticed pretty much all zeds are included.

Is this a ploy by the inviting club to keep us from running in their "exclusive" marque? My mate questioned the organiser when he was checking his entry and he pretty much said marque

category was for lotus and jaguar and the like.

I'm not expecting to win any categories or anything and not going to fight this all the way until I see justice done.

However these events count towards points for my local car club and seems like the organising club just decide which category to put you in.

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Ah, the elusive list.

 

Well done tracking it down.

 

May I suggest you query your entry by email and include a copy for the benefit of the organiser.

It is a CAMS event is it not?  If not then don't bother reading any further.....

 

If it is, I'd be knocking on the door of the Stewards for clarification, hopefully having your entry correctly entered into 2nd. Cat without resorting to a protest. CoC's can be obstinate sometimes, but they have to abide with the NCR's as well.

 

On the other hand, the organiser's are not required to accept your entry either, so you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

Good luck and keep us posted as you can't let the "buggers" get you lest it sets a precedent.

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So what's been happening, particularly with Group 2B Marque Sports Cars? Noticed that the 280ZX is not on the list of eligible cars because I suppose no one has applied. Reading up on the 280ZX turbos in the US which put out 700hp, could spin the wheels in fifth gear and regularly beat the turbo Porkers sort of got me wondering about the 280ZX turbo in Australia.

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'Cos its a family wagon, needs to be a  2 seat, and sold here, maybe!

The wagon ran Bathurst as a 2E car, so it 's just a plain old Touring Car.

Read the rules about what you are supposed to do, rather than cobble up an Outlaw class car , same as a Pro-Am WTAC car?

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So the 2+2 would be eligible for Improved Production then? If so it could run RB30ET/26DETT donks. Interesting, I always wanted to play with that semi trailing arm rear suspension, BMW got it to work well.

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Did some checking just for fun, the 280ZX 2+2 is Group 3J Improved Production eligible for sure, could be a good way to get into racing with something that has some real grunt. Still checking on the Z31 2+2 which is a bit difficult because it would have to pass the cabin measurement check and I have not been able to find those. Anyone know?

 

The Z31 would be interesting because of the range of aluminium V6 Nissan engines available although not all of them may be eligible for use. Maybe I should start a new thread on the IPRA subject.

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Richard, as per your question on that forum of questionable taste  ;D The Z31 is not eligible for IPRA due to space limitations and the fact it was not run or homologated as a touring car here.

 

The 280ZX is eligible for both IPRA and Prod Sports as it is on the list of eligible cars for prod sports and as you said ran in the old series production races, and quite well, biggest kicker in Prod Sports is the fact it would have to run the L series, and you may or may not be able to run the L28ET engine, I would have to look up the rules for that and also if there is a requirement for that spec car to have been sold here through the dealer network.

 

The Z31 is elegible for Prodsports, both 2F, if you want to build a very "standard" car with few mods, or 2B id you want to go a wild build. But you would have to use the VG motor only in the Z31.

 

The Z32 has been raced in Prod Sports in TT form, and could be made very competitive for not a lot of money if built smart. For 2F you wouldn't bother, but in 2B the car could be competitive very easily. The only problem I know if is that they can be very hard to control cooling and still comply with the rules.

 

I went down the S chassis path because they are cheaper, were a better base to start with and have a greater selection of aftermarket and Nissan parts from Sklines and Z chassis to bolt on to go fast.

 

You need to be sure which category you want to run in if playing with the 280ZX as to buid an IPRA car is very different to a 2F or 2B car. I was looking at building my S14 for both, but the compromises to fit within both sets of rules would have made it noncompetitive in both classes. I have been racing in Marque Sports and Prod Sports since the mid '90's so that's what I am building my car to.

 

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Once things settle down for me then it's likely I'll look at getting the present V8 280ZX log booked as a Sports Sedan, after deregistering it and adding some bodywork extensions to run wider wheels. Of course it's never going to be competitive against a proper Sports Sedan but it would be able to do the Top Gear races and still be eligible for sprints which opens up some options.

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Or if only wanting to run locally in brisbane run as it is in outlaws where it should go allright. You could also run in the qr300 in that spec no problems if you want to try enduro racing.

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