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dat2kman

Sumitomo MK 63 Calipers, brake pads and caliper rebuild kits now avail.

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This topic took an interesting turn :) As far as the Arizona Z/Kameari sump goes, I'd assume that they were made in the US and supplied to Kameari  through AZ. This assumption is based on the usual  arrangement whereby the original purchaser would submit his design and pay the caster for the mould etc which thereby would become his property. There can be lots more to it, eg the design can be copied, but I see no point in getting into a guessing game without more facts.

 

So where did K.E.W. claim that the alloy sump was their own design/their own IP/their own product? As far as I'm aware they don't make any such claim.  

 

As for guessing games, that seems to be exactly what you are doing. So K.E.W. sell something that AZC also sell, but the K.E.W. retailed version doesn't have AZC's name on it, so it seems logical to me that this is a case of a legitimately sourced product (it's not like K.E.W. are machining off the AZC logo or anything) with money changing hands in the right direction. What's the problem? Isn't it just another cheap shot at a modest company that doesn't deserve it? 

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I'd weigh one, with pads, but they are bolted onto the 240RS back axle, in the car, in the shed.

If one wanted lightweight calipers, cant get any lighter than the AP enclosed type four piston units, which are also period correct, in racecar useage, also bolted to the front struts, of same said car.

 

Not FIA compliant for the S30-series Z though, which is the reason why the MK63 is used in the first place...

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Well, the S30 never came with the MK63 fitted standard, on any factory built or supplied car, so why should they be permitted under FIA rules, for Prduction Sports cars, built to period requirements!

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Well, the S30 never came with the MK63 fitted standard, on any factory built or supplied car, so why should they be permitted under FIA rules, for Prduction Sports cars, built to period requirements!

 

We've got into such circular discussions about your somewhat bizarre local 'Production Sports Cars' class rules before, and ended up going nowhere. I'm afraid I can't make head or tail of it all...

 

It's a simple point. The MK63-20S calipers and discs were homologated for JAF and FIA-compliant Group 3 and Group 4 competition use in period, and if you want to get HTP papers for such a car it must use them. What's "better" or "lighter" is a moot point.

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So where did K.E.W. claim that the alloy sump was their own design/their own IP/their own product? As far as I'm aware they don't make any such claim.  

 

As for guessing games, that seems to be exactly what you are doing. So K.E.W. sell something that AZC also sell, but the K.E.W. retailed version doesn't have AZC's name on it, so it seems logical to me that this is a case of a legitimately sourced product (it's not like K.E.W. are machining off the AZC logo or anything) with money changing hands in the right direction. What's the problem? Isn't it just another cheap shot at a modest company that doesn't deserve it? 

 

And I never said that Kameari made any such claim or even conteplated making a 'cheap shot' at them. Why would I?

 

Again, there is nothing to indicate anything untoward and there is no reason to think so that I can see. What I mentioned was a normal business practice, changing names on a casting is a simple process which can be done by the caster, it's done legitimately all the time. 

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Perhaps you need reminding of what you wrote:

 

It's pretty easy to upset some people  ;)  don't  Kameari sell Arizona Z aluminium sumps under their own name?

 

The point of which was...?

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QBuW0D.jpg

 

That's a vented type MK63-20S, with all hardware (pins, retaining clips and link cable) but no pads.

 

Fosters!? Thanks but no thanks...

 

So it looks like the MK63 caliper weighs the same as the stock twin pot? I would love for someone to weigh up the Toyota 4x4 S12 or S12W calipers. I suspect they are much heavier.

 

I just recall driving a late 260z 2 seater with these brakes (S12s) fitted and you really feel that extra unsprung weight in the front wheels.

 

PS: Can't believe he offered you Fosters, does anybody actually drink that stuff?

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It appears so, particularly in the U.K. The following was stolen from Wiki, so it must be correct. ;)

 

"Foster's annual sales amount to around 500 megalitres worldwide, largely buoyed by UK sales, where it is the second highest selling beer after Carling.[3] While known internationally as the quintessential Australian beer brand, Foster's does not enjoy widespread popularity in Australia compared to other CUB beers such as Victoria Bitter or Carlton Draught.[4]"

 

I don't have access to accurate scales over 5kg's

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Perhaps you need reminding of what you wrote:

 

 

The point of which was...?

 

No point, if the sump design is different to AZ's then tell us, I'll happily correct my assumption. 

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No point, if the sump design is different to AZ's then tell us, I'll happily correct my assumption. 

 

Your comment was made in the context of this, from post #35 in this thread: "My interpretation of Kameari branded stuff it is like the Repco of Japan. They don't make anything themselves they just put their sticker over the top of everyone elses stuff and well marketed."

 

So you're supporting the mistaken idea that "...they don't make anything themselves...". I'll ask you again, where do Kameari claim the AZC style alloy sump is their own design/own product, and do they "just put their sticker over the top"? You don't seem to be very good at giving straight answers to straight questions, so I'm not necessarily holding out much hope.

 

If you knew anything of substance - anything - about K.E.W. you'll know that they indeed do design, engineer and manufacture a lot of their own products. If you knew that, then you had the opportunity to correct the slight, but you chose not to and instead bring up the AZC sump thing which - as far as I am aware - was a rumour started by AZC themselves. If AZC had any control over the IP and the casting foundry's patterns then they'd surely find it easy to stop, no? The fact that they don't appears to indicate that they don't have that control, and that K.E.W. are having batches cast and machined by the same foundry quite legitimately. In any case it's a straw man argument in the context of K.E.W.'s other products.

 

Ironically enough, there are people out there in *our community* who take Kameari Engine Works products and put their own 'sticker' on them. There are even people who have attempted to copy some of the K.E.W. products. Naughty naughty, but they seem to get away with it.   

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Isn't that an archive picture of 260DET trying to get his car to go faster? I think I can make out the cardboard diffuser and the ground-effect undertray he fashioned from honeycomb (after he'd sucked all the toffee off it).

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Actually,,,, we do not drink Fosters here, its absolute rubbish, thats why we send it to the rest of the World

When we're OS, we all know to not consume it!

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I've got the S12+8 calipers, they look very similar to the MK63. The 12+8's have different size pistons, I would think the weight will depend on the size of the pistons, bigger pistons will mean less material in the caliber body and then less weight overall.

 

I can't see there being much more than a kilogram difference between each type. There will probably be a small weight difference between vented and no vented types too?

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Actually,,,, we do not drink Fosters here, its absolute rubbish, thats why we send it to the rest of the World

When we're OS, we all know to not consume it!

 

Getting waaaaay off topic but.....

Why do Queenslanders call their beer XXXX

 

Cause they can't spell beer

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Isn't that an archive picture of 260DET trying to get his car to go faster? I think I can make out the cardboard diffuser and the ground-effect undertray he fashioned from honeycomb (after he'd sucked all the toffee off it).

 

423.gif

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Whilst it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Can we perhaps steer back on topic?

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(back on track)

 

Alan/Jason

 

When you say the mk63's  are FIA approved - i'm assuming that doesn't help Groups Sb Sc in Aust  or everyone would run them?

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Excerpts below taken from CAMS regs. Basically, the car must comply with the CAMS spec sheet for that model car. Currently, the spec sheet for zeds doesn't recognize the MK63's so they are not allowed.

 

"Groups Sa, Sb and Sc are designed to provide a forum for competitors to race production sports cars from

the ’50s and ’60s …….in a form similar to period club racing.

 

All vehicles must comply with the CAMS Specification Sheet for the model in question. "

 

 

You can apply for the spec sheet to be changed, provided appropriate evidence can be provided (there is a detailed list in the CAMS documents somewhere that outlines what evidence is accepted). Jason, for instance, assisted in getting the spec sheets for the Fairlady convertibles changed to allow the fitment of webers rather than the original Solex carbs.

 

One thing acting against the use of the MK63 would be the following clause, as it could be argued that an FIA homologated part is "dedicated to outright competition" -

 

"modifications permitted .......will be of an improved performance road car nature, as opposed to making the vehicle totally dedicated to outright competition."

 

This is only my interpretation, based on a thorough reading of the rulebook to ensure my Fairlady project will meet Group S requirements (if I ever finish start it....). I have no dog in the fight with regards to Group S and Zeds

Edited by 1600dave

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(back on track)

 

Alan/Jason

 

When you say the mk63's  are FIA approved - i'm assuming that doesn't help Groups Sb Sc in Aust  or everyone would run them?

 

I think 1600dave has answered that question far better than I could, and I'm afraid I don't know anything much - if at all! - about your Groups Sb & Sc over there (especially after conversing with dat2kman...) but, if it's any comfort, the brake situation in Sb and Sc sounds just like the UK's 'Historic Roadsports' class, where they try to keep what you might call 'pure race' modifications to a minimum in an effort to replicate period club racing and keep the focus on a level playing field for all eligible makes and marques.

 

In the UK's Historic Roadsports class they are forced to use the stock front calipers, but are allowed to space them to accommodate vented discs. This seems to work well enough for them, as the 240Zs are often up at the front of the field. I hear similar grumblings about other makes and marques being allowed to use parts that were only local dealer upgrades and whatnot, but you always get that. It's just parts of the politics of class racing I guess. 

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Not sure if I've posted these before, but some reference to what the unvented and vented type MK63s look like:

 

Original FIA 3023 homolgation papers addition for the vented type MK63 caliper and disc:

 

 

SqNFEv.jpg

 

NISMO catalogue page showing the parts:

 

0OceKS.jpg

 

Vented type MK63-20S as mounted on my 432-R replica project car:

 

uLFiAV.jpg

 

I'm intrigued by the comments about weight of the MK63 vs the Toyota four-pistons. I think I'll put some new pads in these NOS MK63s and weigh them again to make sure, but I'm convinced the MK63s are lighter than the pair of Toyota calipers that are lurking in the back of the garage. Yes, the MK63s are cast iron, with steel pistons, and are heavy by comparison with modern calipers or pure race calipers (the Sumitomo MK63 was originally developed for the President limousine from a Girling patent!) but they are not that bad. As you can see, a vented type MK63 with no pads comes in on my scales at 3.8kg, so the pads will take it over 4kg. Let's see...  

Edited by HS30-H

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I did a front brake conversion only recently and weighed the cals

260z twin spot 4.25kg with pads

RX7 (fc) alloy 4spot 3kg with pads

Edited by HKSZ

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