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benny

432 FOR SALE IN NSW

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Geez - you guys are good detectives!

 

Not exactly rocket science, is it?

 

So, 'doudous' - do you have any answers for the questions this thread raises....?

 

Why was a 432 in Japan being advertised on eBay in Australia by somebody who does not own it, and therefore does not have the right to 'sell' it? What's the story on the ( ludicrously low ) 'price'? Where does the designed "by Yamaha" nonsense come from?

 

There are at least three other forums that have threads relating to this spoof eBay 432 ad. Perhaps they would like some answers too...

 

Doesn't all this just prove that - contrary to what you probably intended - people who would like to buy one of these cars from Japan would be better off avoiding you rather than using you?

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Very agro tone HS30-H...    I usually avoid forums because Dealers are very easy targets. I am on this forum not as a dealer or to promote my services, but because I am passionate about old zed cars and own a couple of nice ones too... avoid me - I couldn't care less.

 

If you would rather I did not participate in your forum, simply ask me to exit and I will do so immediately.

 

I have been advertising cars available in Japan that I can source for many years... no complaints so far and it works for me and my clients. 

 

The 432 was a rare car that came up at auction and sold very cheap (the price was shown in the ad). If the ad aroused your curiosity then it achieved its goal and you can ring me for more information if you are interested... Every week I see very interesting old Japanese cars like this up for sale and I think there is definately a market here in Australia for these fantastic machines.

 

Yamaha designed head? I thought this was the case - same designers that made the head for the Toyota 2000GT... If I am wrong I stand corrected. I am sure there are many educated heads on this forum that could shed some more specific light on the design origins of this engine...

 

 

 

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I understand were HS30-H is coming from there is a lot of missing information on the web about the design of these cars or their engineering heritage. You will hear things like Yamaha, Albert Goertz, copy of a Merc engine etc - all miss information. HS30-H tries hard to ensure info is correct and people learn the true heritage of these amazing cars (I think over the years he has become a bit P'd off and sick of seeing the same miss information time and time again - I think the saying goes - bashing your head against a wall.)

 

$48.000 for a genuine Z432 is a big ask if you know how much the parts that go into one of these cars and how much those parts go for. Last time I spotted a S20 engine for sale in Japan it was around $25K aka Ford BDA type pricing and that was for the more common KPGC10 engine which is different to the S20 used in the Z432's

 

I for one (and I bet many here agree) would love to own a genunie Fairlady Z432, I would be happy with a good replica (reads - early shell with the correct S20 engine between the struts) and if you could help someone find one that is great - so were is that winning lotto ticket I purchased.....

 

I have seen 2 Z432 for sale of late in Japan and they are both around 12,000,000 yen and are confirmed genuine cars. So close to $200K vs $48K so that is were the questions are raised from.

 

I see a number of Fairlady Z (be it Fairlady 240Z aka ZG, or just Fairlady Z S30 - JDM for these models can get people confused also) and they are around 2,400,000 yen to 3,500,000 at the moment so $33-45K + shipping and taxes

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Very agro tone HS30-H...    Dealers are very easy targets on forums and I usually avoid them. I am on this forum not as a dealer or to promote my services, but because I am passionate about old zed cars and own a couple of nice ones too... avoid me - I couldn't care less.

 

The disaffection is mutual. Dealers are usually 'targets' on forums because they can't help mixing their business in with their forum activities, and in your case this already seems to be the case.

 

If you would rather I did not participate in your forum, simply ask me to exit and I will do so immediately.

 

This is not my forum, but if it were I'd be asking you for a fee to carry your 'advertorial'.

 

I have been advertising cars available in Japan that I can source for many years... no complaints so far and it works for me and my clients. 

 

I think you just made an advertisement.....

 

The 432 was rare car that came up at auction and sold very cheap (the price was shown in the ad). If the ad aroused your curiosity then it achieved its goal and you can ring me for more information if you are interested...

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here ( see if I fall off ) and say that the "432" that you advertised on eBay ( illegally.... ) was not actually a genuine factory 'PS30' car at all. In fact, I believe it is possible that it may have consisted of nothing more than a lookalike paint / emblem detailing job and an appropriate Japanese vanity number plate. Not only that, but it might have been a well-meaning lookalike of a PS30-SB '432-R' rather than just a plain vanilla PS30 '432' ( note the satin / matt black bonnet - not seen very often these days on genuine 432s, and de-rigeur on a genuine FRP 432-R bonnet ). I believe this 'lookalike' will have been based on a more common model ( probably an S30 or S30-S, but possibly an HS30 or HS30-S ) as the auction sale price that you quote would then make much more sense.

 

So - if you want to prove me wrong ( and make me fall off the tree ) then I challenge you to post up full details of that particular car, including its chassis number and engine number. Then we can see if it was a REAL 432.

 

Anybody want to place any bets?

 

The ball is now in your court.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What advertisement? What advertorial? 

As I said I have posted here as an owner and an enthusiast only.

I have met a couple of good blokes through this forum and went on a Zed drive in Sydney arranged through this forum. It was a fun and light-hearted get together of people with a positive mutual interest- unlike your post. You are making me feel very unwelcome.... A bit like walking into the wrong bar room "Members Only!"

 

Like I said if you want me to exit the forum - just ask - I will leave straight away. Or perhaps you just want to be a bully?

 

If you are so curious all you have to do is give me a call and I can give you any info you want about a particular car including the 432 that was recently sold through auction at USS Tokyo. Here is the auction sheet if you feel it is so important to know more about that particular car:

 

http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/432Z.htm

post-1039-144023527524_thumb.jpg

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Im with doudous on this one, he is a zed enthuisist owing his fair share of zeds. Not many if any possess the full knowledge in regards to the s30 background, the forum is ment to be a source of information so share it as you need to. Doudous himself has said that he will stand corrected if he got his info mixed up so no big deal.

 

I started this thread anyway so no its not an advertisement, doudous was sharing that he has bought the red 240z and that he can get more. Doesnt the zed community want these opportunites brought to the table??

 

Rather then aggrovate members why not help them to understand the background of the s30 in a friendly way, because face it NO ONE knows EVERYTHING about the s30.

 

It seems by the auction sheet that its genuine. Give him a go!!!

 

 

Ben

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doudous,

It's not my place to ask you to leave any forum - let alone this one. I speak only for myself and nobody else. If the community here, or the owner of the forum want you to leave or stay then that's up to them to decide, but I don't see why they would - except if they took exception to your placing an eBay auction for something that was not yours to be selling. Personally, I don't like stuff like that - but others are free to make their own minds up.

 

As for the car in the auction, I didn't expect you to simply post the USS auction sheet. I was hoping that you'd have something more than that ( like personal experience of the car, and / or some information that didn't simply come from it going through the auction ), but then if you'd had no contact with the car I suppose that is to be expected. These days there seems to be hundreds if not thousands of people and companies that promise to source good cars from Japan, when in fact all they do is parrot auction details through middlemen. When it comes to old ( and quite specialised ) cars like these I don't honestly think that is good enough. I've seen cases where the 'agent' obviously hasn't got a clue what they have sold to a client, and the client doesn't really have much of a clue what he has bought either. In one very particular case - which I saw the results of first-hand - a client was completely ripped off to the point of financial ruin, ending up with something that was nothing like what she asked to have sourced for her, and which was actually a complete wreck under the skin. The super-duper auction 'agent' had simply been a link in a chain that ended upstream with a rogue, and the other links in the chain didn't have a clue what they were looking at as it passed through their hands. A very sad story.

 

Yes there are good old cars in Japan and no doubt people like yourself can source them for clients, but the plain truth is that potential export buyers don't normally look at the price bracket that those good cars are in, and are aiming lower ( for obvious reasons ). The high exchange value of the Yen against most other currencies simply exacerbates this, and most of the good old cars are tending to stay in Japan for the present. I think it is very important to warn people off from expecting to get a great condition old car in Japan for any kind of bargain price. Usually they expect something akin to the late model car situation in Japan, which does not really apply to sought-after classics or specials. So forgive me if I sound negative, but it seems that the internet world is full of "I can get you...." merchants who are buying from the same sources as everybody else, and there are simply no short cuts or secret paradise valleys nowadays.

 

The auction sheet doesn't tell us very much about that particular car ( apart from the slightly negative but telling note by the appraiser warning of rust underneath, and evidence of crash damage ) but I will of course concede that it quotes a seemingly genuine PS30 chassis number ( cue sound of breaking twigs and a dull thud as I fall off my branch ) but - and take this for what it's worth people - this car cannot have been all that much of a bargain if it went through the auction at the price quoted ( although I don't know what exchange rate was used to calculate that $AUS figure ). Most of the better PS30s are well known and well connected, and they don't usually end up being passed through auctions. As such, it doesn't really represent the average price of a good PS30, and in my opinion would not be a good purchase for export. If you wanted a real 432, why would you aim at the bottom rung of the market? You'd want a genuine, honest example with little or no evidence of rust or past crash damage on the body ( or you'd want it to be repaired so well that it did not show ) and you'd want one with a good engine. You'd also want to guarantee that it was not simply a chassis number and component 'kit' that had been grafted onto a sound S30 or HS30 body ( not out of the question, unfortunately - and something that a clued up specialist dealer in Japan would avoid ), but I don't know any export car sourcing agents who would be able to tell the difference.......

 

In my opinion, something about that particular car is not adding up and I think others may have noticed this too. Hence the seemingly low auction price? I don't know for sure, but I suspect there might be more to the story than we can see.

 

But then, if this car is nothing to do with you I guess it is all academic anyway, isn't it?

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HS30-H    Why is it that whenever I see a post from you on various forums your always arguing with people  ::)

 

"Arguing"? Who is arguing? I'm simply trying to make a few points in a rational discussion. It's what forums were invented for......

 

If you've got anything to add to the subject of this particular thread then please do. Take a look at the thread's title. It says "432 FOR SALE IN NSW", which might give you a little clue?*

 

 

If you want to start a thread about me, then be my guest.  ::)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*There isn't any 432 for sale in NSW.

 

 

 

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I think the point is.

 

1. It is un-ethical to advertise something that is not true.

2. Miss lead potential buyer with the thought of a genuine Z432 in NSW.

3. Have incorrect facts about the car or any other car for sale.

 

The car in question might well have been a genuine Z432 and it might have sold for around $48,000 AUD but those in the know would only expect that to be a parts car at best and it might not have been registered in Japan (I don't know I can't read Japanese so I can't read the auction papers) which here in NZ make it impossible to register on the road with out de-reg papers and sales receipts - and all the other red tape you have go through to import a car. So in this case your $48,000 get you a Z432 body, engine (or did it have an engine?) we never got to see under the hood it might have been removed and the $48,000 was just for a genuine PS30 rolling shell that was noted as rusty and crash damaged.

 

All this tells me is that if something is too good to be true it usually is and if and when I have enough money to purchase a genuine Z432 I will be paying for a flight to Japan to personally check/inspect the car first as that is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

 

I see many Japanese importers here in NZ (we have a lot given we don't have car manufactures here any more) place photos of cars which look to be taken from the same auction house. However they always state will arrive in 3 weeks time as they are on the boat already = dealer is selling something they already own. And I think that is more of the issue than just putting up an auction of some car that they could potentially get.

 

Hell someone could take a picture of my car - put it up on ebay and say they can get this car for you. As we all know everything is up for sale at the right price. Is this ethical - hell NO and that is what I have issues with.

 

That is what we call false advertising and companies get done for that - period.

 

Don't get me wrong it is good that doudous is a keen S30 owner and I don't want to discourage any S30 owner from this forum, and I might point out it was not him who started this thread, but it was his ebay auction that did spark this interest, which is what I am sure the auction was trying to do.

 

However I think this was still very misleading and unethical way to go about it. I am not a big ebay user so I am not 100% up with their rules for auctions but if they are anything like NZ's trademe you can't use it to advertise a service which is basically what this auction was about.

 

Rant over.

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doudous is back on the site huh?

 

awesome Zed in the video.

 

Im not going to get invovled with the contravertial ebay add..

 

Doudous, how come i never see your car around? you live around the Lane Cove area yeah?

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I'm probably going to regret chiming in here but...

 

Let me just state first that I do not have a problem with doudous on this forum.

 

But I can understand what has made HS30-H post the way he has. The way that car was advertised is deceitful and against policy. To make a very broad comparison, imagine getting a catalog that said we have Sony Bravia LCD TV's for $200. You go into the shop and they say sorry we don't actually have any Bravia's here, we actually don't have any tv's here but we can order in these other LCD's if you want. I haven't actually lost out on anything but I feel like I just wasted some of my time and got really excited for nothing.

 

Then I think the thing that topped it off was that doudous says that he isn't here to advertise anything and then in that post, attaches 4 pictures of cars that he can import (unless I've mistaken the relevance of these pictures?)

 

 

Doudous, stick around. I wouldn't even mind if you posted a few cars that you can get a hold of here and there so long as the situation is explained fully. Just like others have said, the ebay ad doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

 

You're an enthusiast and should be able to contribute to the forums. And I now know of another importer if I want stuff from Japan. I would rather import from someone here than some other random guy on the net.

 

Edit: I have also noticed people referring to the ad on other forums and most people have passed it off as a scam due to the lack of photos, low price and zero feedback on ebay. So in this case it hasn;t worked as an advertisement for your business unfortunately.

 

 

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Reading over the post, I just wanted to reiterate, your forum conduct is and has been fine (in my opinion) and it's good having you around. This is just more of a debate over the ebay ad....

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Reading over the post, I just wanted to reiterate, your forum conduct is and has been fine (in my opinion) and it's good having you around. This is just more of a debate over the ebay ad....

Agreed.

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Reading over the post, I just wanted to reiterate, your forum conduct is and has been fine (in my opinion) and it's good having you around. This is just more of a debate over the ebay ad....

 

This seems to be correct.

 

Stick around though doudous! want to see more of your cars!

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I humbly agree that all enthusiasts are supported on the forum and it is good to see some spirited discussion which helps us all become educated at the same time!

 

Doudous has also intentionally/unintentionally promoted the S30 brand to present itself as an exotic collectable as they  should be, he has helped increase price expectation and moved the car up another run on the ladder in collectability and interest which none of us could have ever achieved.

His for sale car presentation puts a whole new interest back into Zeds especially as an alternative classic purchase, the car below is a fine example.........Lynton 8)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1978-Datsun-260Z-FAIRLADY-Silver-Blue-5sp-M-2D-COUPE_W0QQitemZ260441120338QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Cars?hash=item3ca3801e52&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

 

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The 71 Orange Zed is always in lane Cove and gets used at least 2 or 3 times a week...  Call me if you want to go for a cruise and a coffee!

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I dont think the guy intentionally set out to deceive anyone, He should have left out the NSW bit thats all  ;D.

 

And judging by some of the pics earlier on in the post he has access to some really nice Z's.  or are they Fairlady's?

 

Ive often looked through online auction sites and never seem to come across Z's? Im I looking in the wrong place?

 

Rocky Auto is the only place ive seen with nice Z's for sale in Japan.

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I dont think the guy intentionally set out to deceive anyone, He should have left out the NSW bit thats all  ;D.

 

And judging by some of the pics earlier on in the post he has access to some really nice Z's.  or are they Fairlady's?

 

Ive often looked through online auction sites and never seem to come across Z's? Im I looking in the wrong place?

 

Rocky Auto is the only place ive seen with nice Z's for sale in Japan.

Not looking at the right places - yesterday I found 40 S30/S31 for sale in Japan (and not in Auctions)

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Great looking car but it still is not a Datsun 260z 2+2. I say this as it is in fact a JDM car which was never badged as a Datsun or a 260z. Just a Fairlady Z. Don't mean to be picky but they are different cars.

 

260z 2+2 = GRS30

Fairlady Z 2+2 like the one shown is a GS31

 

These different chassis codes are their to ID the differences between the models = it is not a Datsun 260z 2+2 period. Much like my 260z RS30 is not a 240z HS30 or a Z432 PS30. It would be bit like trying to call a Mustang that was originally build/sold as a 6 cylinder and pass it off as a Shelby Mustang after a dress up was done and a V8 installed. Different cars - always will be. Nice none the less.

 

I guess I am funny bugger like that - I like to ensure people understand what they are looking at etc.

 

The silver Fairlady Z in this auction is a very good example of such a car - and you don't see many in that condition so that is an excellent find. This car also looks to be a Fairlady ZL you can tell as it has electric windows.

 

EDIT: Some very nice looking cars that he has for sale and some very good finds from the look.

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Thats a spotless car, not a fan of the wheels tho......Yeah im aware of the different models in Japan thanks to HS30-H  ;D........

 

Am I right in saying that a Datsun 260 2+2 would be worth more than a GS31?  Or in other words would a Z be worth more than a Fairlady?

 

Take the likes of Rocky Auto,  are their cars HS30? OR 31'S?

 

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Yeah im aware of the different models in Japan thanks to HS30-H 

 

Well you obviously haven't been paying quite as much attention as you thought you were, otherwise you wouldn't ask questions like these:

 

Or in other words would a Z be worth more than a Fairlady?

 

Take the likes of Rocky Auto,  are their cars HS30? OR 31'S?

 

You are getting your Zs mixed up with your Fairladies, when in actual fact ( for the S30/S31, S130, Z31, Z32, Z33 & Z34 series ) those Fairladies are all Zs. Why would you think that any S30-series onward Fairladies are not Zs?

 

Rocky Auto - or anybody else in Japan - could be selling S30s, HS30s, PS30s, GS30s, S31s, GS31s etc etc etc ( even re-imported HLS30s, HS30s and the odd RS30 can pop up for sale in Japan ). Each car has to be viewed on a case-by-case basis, and it is very important to know the identity of the base of any converted / modified old car as it will have an effect on the cost as well as the value ( they are not always equal ). Take Mr doudous' red car in the video for example; It has quite obviously had the early type tail lamp conversion, and that might fool a lot of people into thinking it is a "240Z" rather than a later model.

 

And people have been known to buy an S31 when they thought they were buying a "240Z", haven't they?  ;)

 

 

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Ha dont go there again, Well put it down to he was miss informed by the seller  ;D

 

ok do me a favour...... list all Z's,  and then list all Fairlady's.

 

I thought an S31 was a fairlady  ???

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Ha dont go there again, Well put it down to he was miss informed by the seller  ;D

 

ok do me a favour...... list all Z's,  and then list all Fairlady's.

 

I thought an S31 was a fairlady  ???

S31 is a Fairlady Z not just a Fairlady the Fairlady was sold in other markets as the Datsun roadster, Datsun 1500, Datsun 1600, Datsun 2000 (not to be confused with the Datsun 1600 which is a 510 lol - confused you so will be  :)) you know the little sports car with no roof - those are Fairladies but the S30, S31, HS30, HS30-H, PS30, S130, HS130,.....the list goes on up the model range were all badged in Japan as Fairlady Z (well there was the odd exception ie the 240z sold in Japan ie HS30 was marketed as a Fairlady 240z) again this can be confusing for some - hell I have responsible understanding and I get confused.

 

Here in NZ we have lots of imported cars from Japan = lots of JDM models. This is good thing, but that also has issue. You see there is the odd imported HLS30 280z (not to be confused with the HLS30 240z ;D)  so these are 280z are they not but then we have the HS130 imported from Japan (along with the NZ new version too). Now the HS130 or GHS130 in Japan were badged as Fairlady 280z (not a 280zx like the rest of the world) so people call them a 280z for short - so when to talk to some people they say I have 280z to have to get more info to confirm what they are talking about - they get confused when the read US based forums and the like and see you can swap these suspension bit with that between 240z/260z/280z which in true and then not true depending on the term 280z and who/how it is applied.

 

Anyway to help with the list of cars - this is not the complete list but it might help - and to add to the confusion some of the number are internal codes given to the model not the actual chassis ID

 

Fairlady Roadster = SPL212

Fairlady Roadster = SPL213

Fairlady Roadster = SP310/SPL310

Fairlady Roadster = SP311/SPL311

Fairlady Roadster = SR311/SRL311

 

Now into the S30 range

Fairlady Z = S30S

Fairlady Z-L = S30

Fairlady Z432 = PS30

Fairlady Z432-R = PS30SB

Datsun 240z = HS30/HLS30 (export model)

Fairlady 240Z = HS30S

Fairlady 240Z = HS30

Fairlady 240ZG = HS30H (Alan has one of these - a real one)

Datsun 260Z = RS30/RLS30 (export model)

Fairlady Z 2+2 = GS30S

Datsun 260Z 2+2 = GRS30/GRLS30 (export model)

Datsun 280Z = HLS30 (export model only LHD that I know of)

Datsun 280Z 2+2 = GHLS30 (export model only LHD that I know of)

Fairlady Z = A-S30S (new body ie same as you would know as the Datsun 260z early shell)

Fairlady Z-L = A-S30 (I am not 100% what the difference between the and S31 shell is - maybe Alan knows)

Fairlady Z 2+2 = A-GS30S

Fairlady Z-L 2+2 = A-GS30

Fairlady Z = C-S31S

Fairlady Z-L = C-S31

Fairlady Z-T = C-S31J

Fairlady Z 2+2= C-GS31S

Fairlady Z-L 2+2 = C-GS31

Fairlady Z-T 2+2 = C-GS31J

 

You want me to go into the S130 range - that is going to take much longer due to 2000cc, 2800cc targa top etc all the different version of trim blah blah.

 

As you can see above the JDM got a lot more options/models on the S30 range than the rest of us. The 240z list does not go into the differences between its export markets ie Australian spec vs Euro spec vs US spec and then the odd ball like NZ which did not get a AU spec or EU spec but something different again ;) I see many differences is the export models along and they are basic before you start looking into the JDM which is a lot more complex.

 

As you can see there are different levels of the Fairlady Z and their price, when new, were different so therefore the resale should also reflect the difference is the model range. Here in NZ JDM Fairlady Z (s30 range here) normally sell for less coin my like the RS30 (260z seater) as most see the Datsun 240z as the model to own. So people try to increase the valve of their S30 or S31 (reads Fairlady Z) but changing badging etc to make them look like the more priced Datsun 240z. If you don't care about all this cool have a Z that looks like 240z and if you are happy who gives a flying .......(insert choice word of your liking) that is why I have RS30 - I like the fact it is the revised body shell with stronger strut towers, longer chassis rails....the list goes on. If I want an 240z I would have kept the ones I have owned HS30-00016 (yes a very early girl indeed) as that one restored would be worth the most to a collector after the earliest one they could find.

 

Anyway I hope this info might be of use and if any of this is incorrect I am ready to be corrected so I don't put incorrect information out there - nothing worse than incorrect facts as this just makes matter worse does it not?

 

Cheers

Mike

 

EDIT: I have put in bold those models exported ie what you know as a 240z/260z or 280z (US model S30)

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Thanks Nzeder, although it almost seems like we should start a new forum thread on this.

I tried to put together that blog post about chassis numbers but even that is still not complete and doesn't cover all the Japanese models.

 

I agree the different levels of trim for the S30 in the JDM market means that certain cars were worth more new than others and as a result hold different values in the collector car market today.

 

I for 1 am going to buy some books:

http://www.amazon.com/Datsun-Fairlady-Motorcycle-Marque-Model/dp/1901295028

 

Although I understand Brian Long's book still has some errors.

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