LSD Diff options...What can we use in our Zeds..

[BenZed]

Is this for 110mm or 115mm R180 ring gear Ben?

 

I believe they are 115mm, the 110mm is fairly rare. If you are interested in ordering one I will be happy to check this with OS 

[roastbeef]

PM sent Benzed

[Dan260Z]

On the R200 side of things - I have fitted S13/14/R32 LSD centres into my Long Nose R200's. I had to make/get made some spacers to take the M12 down to the M10 so the M10 crown wheel can bolt to the LSD centres.

 

I have used the OBX HLSD (designed for the open S13/14 R200 shortnose)- this is covered on the Hybridz website and I believe I was the first one to bit the bullet and purchase one, however I have not got this in the car - the car is still a body shell but it is ready to go. The installation into the Longnose R200 was simple really just the normal check blacklash etc. I also have 2 x Balltec units that I plan to install into my other R200's. However one of these requires/has the different inputs into the centre so this is what I have been playing with WD21 V6 axles to make a hybrid CV axle that will work with the plugins in the diff. I should have the axles complete in the next few weeks (this weekend is a Targa event here in NZ and I am doing my normal pit crew work for a team). I will do a write up then but some of the info/work I have done is also on Hybridz just search for Pathfinder or 4x4 axles (some info also posted here on this site too)

 

 

Sorry to re-hash such an old thread!

 

NZeder, I have a few qns if that's cool:

 

1. When you say you fitted R32, etc viscous centres into long nose R200s, asides from the 10-12mm spacer/sleeves, did the S30 output flanges fit in, and engage the Viscous centre properly?  I heard viscous diffs usually need a longer shaft on one side to engage with the viscous bit else you just end up with a single spinner....

 

2. I was reading your comments on hybrid Z re. fitting an S15 Helical to a longnose R200, and using Pathfinder Driveshafts  ( http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/73184-using-the-s15s-hlsd-in-a-long-nose-r200/ ).

I'm super eager to try fitting an S15 helical centre into my R200 longnose. 

- How did you go with this?

- The Empi part number (80-4703) you noted for the driveshaft assy comes up as 5-bolt (not 3x2) versions - was this a typo?  If so, would this the be one I need for the 3x2 S15 output flanges? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140662464905  (Pathfinder  D21, 4 cyl, 4WD  LH & RH,  9/92-10/95 for anyone reading this long after the ebay ad is taken down )

- You also mention using "Replacement wheel end CV of 6 cylinder Pathy axle part number 87-9096"... am I right in saying this can be substituted for a Z31 300zx outer... and (this might be a stretch)... it'll bolt onto the S30 stub axle companion flange?  (else, I was considering chopping up the outer joint from the Pathfinder driveshaft, welding on a custom 4-bolt flange, and bolting that to the s30 companion flange?)

- The BIG qn (and final, I promise!!!)... will this work out to be the right length with no risk of binding with suspension compression, or falling out on extension?

 

I spose I could just use S15 inner CVs, custom shafts, and some suitable (??) outer CV'sx that will bolt to the S30 companion flange... but the cheapest I've seen custom shafts was $600 pair.

 

If I manage to make all this work I'll do a write up to help out the s30 community

 

[Dan260Z]

Well with no extra info to go on I figure bugger it, just try it and see how I go! 

 

Got my hands on an S15 Torsen complete diff and am getting a used set of pathfinder axles this weekend for $50 (will replace with new/reco ones once i establish they fit... not wasting $200+ on a trial assembly ;-) )

 

Will keep everyone posted.  Any suggestions on my qn's in the meantime will obviously be much appreciated

[Agno]

I'm watching this with interest

[NZeder]

Sorry I missed the question directed to me. So i will try and answer them now if a little late.

 

1. Vlsd do need a long input shaft on one side. I have not done a vlsd conversion yet.

2. I don't recall ever stating use empi axles. I was trying to help the USA guys out who had purchased some...well it was so long ago i can't recall and don't visit hybridz much these days. If I did it would have been based on my build which was using 5x1 at the diff end.

 

I build my axles using the following parts.

 

1. V6 pathfinder/terrano wd21 front axles. These are 5x1 bolt pattern at the diff end.

2. 300zx Z31 turbo axles. Used only for the 4x1 bolt cv at the wheel end.

3. A OBX S13 short nose ATB LSD.

4. S14 5X1 diff plug in axles (from an open diff)

 

The pathfinder axles as they where oem items they had non tri pod cv that the guys in the USA found with the empi/aftermarket items. So both ends of the axles matched the cv joints i planned for the build.

 

All I had to do was cut a new sir clip groove at what was the wheel end of the pathfinder/terrano so the z31 cv could be installed on this end. Alxes where then assembled with new boots and installed on a 240z track car.

 

I now like you need to do a 3x2 inner cv setup for my 260z track car as the lsd I have now has 3x2 plugins at the diff end.

 

So I now need to source some pathfinder/terrano 4 cylinder front axles which have the same 3x2 setup at the diff end. Then remove the wheel end cv, cut the new sir clip groove and install the 300zx 4x1 cv end (these 4x1 cv ends are now very hard to find so i might have to come up with something new again)

 

I did this conversion years and years ago, I used oem parts not aftermarket stuff like a few on hybridz.org that found tri pods and different spline counts on the axles. However as some locally assembled vehicle use parts sourced from local manufacturers what I did using all JDM oem parts might not work if using a mix of JDM parts and locally assembled parts. Just be aware of that fact.....you might get a different axles that were supplied by a local manufacturer.

 

[dat2kman]

Be aware that with extreme use, a Torsen/ATB/Helical/Geared type ""LSD" centre will revert to Open diff mode, and not supply drive to both wheels.

Extreme use such as, bouncing off kerbs/lifting wheels off kerbs, on race tracks, or, excessive opposite lock/sliding car sideways, whether on dirt or tarmac.

There is a point at which the difference between Left/Right wheel rotational speed, that causes the gears in these to be released.

Solution, keep ff the kerbs, and dont do wild opposite lock manouevres on dirt/tarmac, or spin out on corners.

[Dan260Z]

Cheers NZeder, it usually takes me 2 months to get round to doing the things I research after I research them, so the short delay in replying is no issue!

 

This is all making a lot more sense now, cheers

 

Sounds like we can help each other out.  I now have my S15 helical (3x2 outputs) and a single stuffed OEM (I think) Nissan Pathfinder D21 4 cyl (3x2) driveshaft.

No work done yet, so all I can confirm atm is that the pathfinder 3x2 fits the S15 3x2 flange perfectly - bolts line up, centers perfectly in the groove/counterbored section of the output stubs.

 

You'd be interested to know the inboard CV is a tripod on the OEM shaft.  That is, assuming I was actually supplied an OEM shaft (from a nissan wrecker, but who knows if someone swapped it at some point in it's life... looked pretty old/used though).  I'm ok with that, though I prefer to use a Rzeppa style on the wheel end.... though realistically a tripod both ends will probably be ok given the small angles the rear will see.  Dunno if the shafts will clunk left and right though given the ability to extend in and out of the joint at both sides if I had two Tri-pods.  Hmmm.

 

Did you use the 4x1 bolt 300zx Z31 wheel end CV along with something like a modern motorsports companion flange?  Or do they bolt straight onto the stock S30 4x1 bolt stub axle flange?

 

My rough plan was to either find a bolt-on (ie. not through-hub) style outer CV with the right spline count/diameter, and make an adaptor flange to bolt it to the S30 stub axle flange... or chop the short splined section off the Pathfinder outer CV and weld the CV onto a custom flange.

 

Making flanges will be easy for me as I can draw it up in CAD and give the file to the local plasma cutting place, providing it doesn't require any milling or turning.

 

Hopefully in the next week or two I'll be able to stuff the S15 helical LSD into my R200 longnose and rebuild my diff, give it a lick of paint, etc.  Then shortly after that I'll whack it back in the car and start sorting out the driveshafts... stay tuned and keep me posted on any progress you make!

[NZeder]

Well my axle setup is running well on another road/track car along with the obx centre.

 

 

I picked up a S15 Helical centre myself. This will go into the diff for the road car. The hlsd have 30 teeth/spline on 31mm shafts with the snap ring inside the lsd centre. They have 3x2 bolt pattern. I am changing to a 5x1 bolt pattern by using some Nismo GTPro plugins which share the same 30t on 31mm shaft. For those interested this is the same spline/shaft size as the 2 way early R32 GTR mechanical LSD. So if you hunt you can use plugin with 3x2, 5x1 or 6x1. I am going 5x1 as here in NZ there are many skyline/laurel imports that use the 5x1 setup.

 

Over the next few weeks I will source the parts I need again to do the custom axles setup using wd21 axles after selling the last setup as stated which is running in a 240z road/track car now.

[Dan260Z]

Nice work on picking up the S15 Helical   I finally got round (what is it, 2 months later?) to cleaning up my diff and installing the S15 helical centre.  I'm gonna try sticking with the 3x2 output flanges for now given the Pathy D21 4cyl axles mate up to them.

 

So findings so far - I've eliminated the possibility of cutting the shaft off the Pathy outer CV and welding on a flange - total assembly ends up about 3/4"-1" too long (passenger/short side of the S30)

See attached pics - one pic is the shaft at full extension out of the tri-pod end, the next is me pushing it in to make it short as possible.  That's with camber bushes fitted at full outward setting (ie. track width is wider than stock by about 10mm per side). 

 

Any suggestions?

 

Atm I'm thinking I'll try another suggestion you had on hybrid Z... http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/78296-double-tripod-cv-axles-bad-idea/

Empi 87-9522.  There should be heaps of old camry's etc at my local pick-a-part, so I might have a wander through one day soon with the vernier in hand and see if that Camry inner CV will fit on the 27 spline outer of the Pathy axle.  If so I'll grab one and see if it results in an axle that's the right length (once a custom flange is added to bolt it to the 4x1 s30 Stub axle flange of course).

[NZeder]

Thanks for pointing me back to one of my old posts about the camry cv I forgot about that. Well I know the 300zxt Z31 4x1 on one end and the 5x1 on the other end of a pathfinder axle works (pathfinder axle needs to be modified with a snap ring groove cut so the 300zxt 4x1 can be installed)

 

On the short side it just works does not bind but gets really close to binding.

[Dan260Z]

I assume you're using the Z31 4-bolt outer joint with something like a Modern Motorsports companion flange, or a custom adapter of some sort? 

 

A couple of weeks of hard googling and some pick-a-part action has seen me come up with an unexpected combination... The D21 Pathfinder 4-cyl Inner CV (tripod), Pathfinder shaft, and (wait for it...) a VT commodore outer CV joint!  Has 27-splines and is the right diameter for the pathfinder shaft's outer spline'd section (noting the inner of the pathfinder shaft is a smaller diameter despite also being 27-spline).

 

No grooves to be cut as the Pathfinder's spring retainer on the end of the shaft works perfectly to hold the commodore CV in place too.  I was going to fit a circlip into the groove but the one I had didn't want to fit and the spring clip seems to do a perfect job or retaining the CV... just makes it slightly harder to disassemble later (few hard whacks to get the CV off instead of just removing a circlip).

 

Apparently the commodore joints are effectively Porsche 930 108mm types, and from what info I can find, appear to be the same on V8 and V6 commodores, suggesting it'll be strong enough for most decent zed applications (Mine is likely to have an RB25DET or VQ35 eventually).

 

I'll need to make/machine up an adapter flange to mate the 6-bolt Commodore CV to the zed's rectangular stub axle flange.  I noticed PeterAllen made up such a flange in this thread http://www.viczcar.com/forum/index.php/topic,14440.0.html ... Might hassle him for a CAD file or drawing and see how I go ;-)

 

Overall length seem nearly perfect, maybe slightly long on the S30's short side, so i'm gonna try to keep the adapter flange as thin as possible (probably about 10mm thick overall... roughly the minimum required to let the inner race move through it's range without hitting anything (the standard cap fitted to the joint has a 16mm bulge in it, which seems unnecessary)

[lampy]

See this page on OZdat for my commodore CV's for a r180.

I machined up an adapter plate out of 6061 t6 alloy to suit the outer flange. 1600's are the same as a zed so might give you some ideas

 

http://ozdat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=20290&start=90

 

 

My previous 1600 came with a set of CV's with a nissan inner joint and a commodore outer to suit a r200 diff. I wonder if it was a pathfinder shaft?

[Dan260Z]

Took a look Lampy - very nice work there! 

 

Perhaps it was!  I wouldn't be surprised if someone had figured this out before - just a shame whoever it was didn't share the knowledge!

 

You would by any chance have a CAD file for that adapter would you?

[lampy]

Unfortunately i dont have a cad file. Just knocked them up on my own lathe.

I dont think you will be able to make them any thinner without sacrificing some plunge on the outer joint. Mine was about as thin as you can get because the steel cover fouls on the bolts holding the adapter to the datsun flange

[PeterAllen]

Like lampy I just machined mine to suit as I had the relative luxury of creating a new shaft to length. I have attached a file from a GT40 site which might assist with some of the dimensions.

 

You will really struggle to get it down to 10mm and still have structural integrity. I suggest you consider if this is doable.

 

- do away with the grease retainer cover. That should give you a couple of mm.

 

- measure the amount of protrusion of the cage at around 22-25 degrees and make that the depth of your recess. (I have assumed the inner Nissan tripod unit will facilitate plunge?) Actually if you go ahead with the next step you could just bore it through.

 

- WELD the S30 outer flange to the new adaptor. You may need to first make a circular plate (approx 4mm thick) to slip over, and be welded to, the square S30 outer flange. This could then be turned true prior to welding to the 930 adaptor (see sketch).

 

On second thoughts, the 930 adaptor and the circular-square adaptor could be manufactured as one piece.

 

The key to this is the depth of the cage protrusion AND minimising distortion when welding - get a pro to do it.

 

(edit) I just thought of another idea. Why not buy two diff output shafts from a Holden wrecker and machine off the shaft component - two ready-made 930 adaptors? Further, as you are not fitting grease retainers you could machine the face of these to the thickness of the retainers, or more.

[Dan260Z]

Thanks for the advice Peter, very much appreciated.  I'd done something similar to what you suggested, planning to construct the adapter out of two pieces to avoid milling.  I found the CV cage and shaft protrusion to only be about 8mm at the absolute full extent of articulation (well beyond what it'll get to in the car), so I made the adapter out of a 6mm flange to weld onto the stock companion flange (ie. matched the 6mm companion flange thickness), then the "spacer ring" is made out of 8mm thick mild steel.  If that turns out to be too thin and yields CV cage/ball interference issues, I'll get the rings re-cut out of 10mm or thicker.

 

Knocked up a couple of drawings in solidworks and sent the dxf's to a local laser cutting place - who (very nicely) agreed to do it all for a slab!  2hrs after send the file through they were ready for pickup 

 

Got them to cut the holes too, however as I plan to tap them to M10x1.25 (which would normally require an 8.8mm hole), I got them cut undersize to 8mm, with a plan to drill them out to 8.8 to remove the hard crust created by the localised rapid heating/cooling due to the laser cutting, so as to avoid destroying my tap.

 

If this doesn't work, I also knocked up a model for a 1-piece part which would obviously require milling to produce.  Obviously the 1-piece would be stronger and has the added benefit of including a small lip to help centre the CV joint, but it was gonna be a PITA to organise the milling (and potentially expensive).

 

To aid with strength I extended the OD of these parts out to 115mm (instead of matching them to the 108mm OD of the CVs), and made the centre hole as small as possible (matches the 75mm ID of the CV joint - it's not a plunge joint so the ID is a perfect circle, no slots for the balls to slide in/out of that I'd need to make clearance for).

 

Speaking of which, I scored 2 brand new commodore outer joints for $45 each on ebay au, including new boots, grease, etc.  Another reason this conversion is so attractive to me (if it works that is!).

 

Oh to answer your other qn, yes the Nissan pathdfinder inner Cv's are Tripod styles with a massive amount of plunge (which should also cater easily to the two sides of the zed requiring slightly different length shafts).

 

Will keep you posted once I get it all welded together/tapped/assembled.  Probably in 2-3 weeks time as I'm waiting on drills, taps, etc from ebay.

[PeterAllen]

Just a point we have not covered but you may have addressed. I would not assume the squares on the S30 couplings are perfectly square. I machined mine to ensure they were.

 

You may have to true it in a lathe after welding and then redrill the six holes in the spacer.

[Dan260Z]

Spot on Peter - I did try to centre up the stock flange within the new adaptor "rings"... but after welding had about 1mm of run-out on one of them (the send about half that).  So I've welded up the holes and plan in the coming weeks to turn down the outer as you suggested in a lathe, and re-drill the holes.

[PeterAllen]

Dan, check out these little beauties!

 

[Dan260Z]

Wow!  Exactly what I need (pending thickness/height check as my shafts are a bit on the long side)!  Where did you find them?

Are they a one-off or an aftermarket production item?

 

Mine are on hold, nearly done re-drilling the holes, though I broke off a small drill bit in the last hole I had to do, so I've been waiting on an ebay order of a carbide bur to try to tear through the bit that's stuck in there.  They should get the car on the road, though I've started working on a new design that'll involve some lathe work to machine in a lip to center it on the OEM companion flange, as well as a lip to center up the CV - but still avoids milling.

 

[garvice]

Very Nice Peter. Did you also redrill your stubs for 5stud holes?

[PeterAllen]

Unfortunately for us they are a one-off from Finland of all places.

 

I've contacted the chap to see if he is interested in making any more. They are for the 260Z 27 spline pattern.

[Dan260Z]

Bugger - keep me posted though!

[PeterAllen]

The chap got back to me stating they were VERY expensive and the fit of the splines was very loose.

 

All that glitters...