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Mr240z

LSD Diff options...What can we use in our Zeds..

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What diff's can be used in our Zeds is the question..

 

I see lsd's on ebay all the time at huge $$$$.

 

So the question is can we use other diffs from Subaru's etc and there a R160,R180,R200 what are the difference's in these, as you can found these diff's cheap.

 

Looking for experts in this field ;)

 

 

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I'm not expert, but here is my contribution to the subaru lsd's

 

The subaru r180 isn't an easy "bolt in" diff but a guy on hybrid has made it work, with a lot of work. I'm planning on going with this conversion when I can save the $. My reasoning as that most "bolt in" lsd go for at least $1000 and that's for a 20-30yr old diff. Even if the subaru conversion costs $2000, you get upgraded cv's and a -10yr old diff. I know which I would rather have :)

 

Here is the link to hybridz http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=117916&highlight=sti+r180+lsd

 

Scroll down to the post by Nizzan, i think since then he has made his own thread about the conversion.

 

Edit: found his dedicated thread http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=143667

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If you are looking for LSD options you may want to consider the one in the attached link from Melbourne which fits into a particular model R180 diff.  By all accounts they are quite strong and in a R180 would be a fair bit lighter than an R200 LSD.

 

http://members.optushome.com.au/amaxeng/five10/diff.htm

 

Mmmmm, now you've got me thinking........ This looks a great option, but a bit expensive for me with three welded diffs at the moment to replace.

 

For a realtively cheap option if you really want an LSD, this would be the way I would go:

  • Find a cheap open R180 diff off e-bay, through the trading post or from Ozdat
  • Get this centre
  • Get an expert to set it up for you

 

I reckon you should get change out of $2000 for what should be an almost new diff.

 

I would look at going down this path as I need to replace my existing diffs, though the R180 is a strong diff and I have yet to break a diff on the track with about ten seasons of racing for the car sgaring two ratios between the tracks I raced and hillclimbed at.

 

 

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I think before we can answer your question you need to tell us what you want to use your car for (Road, touring, Sprints or Racing) and how much power the motor is pumping out. The "R" series diffs are great so I wouldn't see any need to move away from them. The question as to what type depends on your answers above. Oh and what ratio you want will also have a bearing on the cost. some are more common than others.

To my way of thinking any other diff used to save money would be negated after you spend time, money and energy fitting it.

 

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On the R200 side of things - I have fitted S13/14/R32 LSD centres into my Long Nose R200's. I had to make/get made some spacers to take the M12 down to the M10 so the M10 crown wheel can bolt to the LSD centres.

 

I have used the OBX HLSD (designed for the open S13/14 R200 shortnose)- this is covered on the Hybridz website and I believe I was the first one to bit the bullet and purchase one, however I have not got this in the car - the car is still a body shell but it is ready to go. The installation into the Longnose R200 was simple really just the normal check blacklash etc. I also have 2 x Balltec units that I plan to install into my other R200's. However one of these requires/has the different inputs into the centre so this is what I have been playing with WD21 V6 axles to make a hybrid CV axle that will work with the plugins in the diff. I should have the axles complete in the next few weeks (this weekend is a Targa event here in NZ and I am doing my normal pit crew work for a team). I will do a write up then but some of the info/work I have done is also on Hybridz just search for Pathfinder or 4x4 axles (some info also posted here on this site too)

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There is a very good post by a member called Matt towards the bottom of this page:

 

http://www.ozdat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4034&start=15

 

I bought a R200 with the KAAZ centre for a non-turbo S13 already fitted off a member on this forum (Vindicare).  This is a good option if you don't want the expense of changing your drive shafts.  The thread above lists the details of the centre you need to buy.

 

R180's are fine.  My car had always had a welded R180 in it until the start of the year.  The only reason I switched to the R200 was so I could go for the easy LSD option.  In most cases you'll bust your gearbox well before you bust an R180 unless you're doing big single wheel burnouts  :)  If you can stick with R180 it's a great weight saving, although the weight is low and to the back of the car so if you're going to add weight that's where you want to do it.  The other good thing about R180's is you can get lots of different ratios for bugger all cost.

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I'm going a slightly different direction. No LSD for me (well not yet anyway). I am going with a system that is an open diff most of the time but becomes a locker when a wheel begins to slip. It then reverts to an open diff when you take the foot off the gas. The system is not suitable for general use on the road. It only costs $300 but needs to be replaced every couple of years. It is an old concept (around since the 50s) so its passed the test of time.

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There is a very good post by a member called Matt towards the bottom of this page:

 

http://www.ozdat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4034&start=15

 

I bought a R200 with the KAAZ centre for a non-turbo S13 already fitted off a member on this forum (Vindicare).  This is a good option if you don't want the expense of changing your drive shafts.  The thread above lists the details of the centre you need to buy.

 

I am getting some mixed comments about the KAAZ unit. I had decided to buy the 240sx LSD unit SAN2655.

Got a price from RMS motor parts which seemed reasonable. I was just about to purchase when I decided to check the diameter and spline count of the half shafts. I had thought that the Z r200s were 30mm diameter and 29 spline count. However RMS motor parts told me that the half shaft inputs for the SAN2655 are 32mm dia and 29 spline count.

 

Now another thread saying that this centre works with 30mm diameter shafts. ARGHHH!

 

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Well the OBX unit I purchased as for the 240sx and the 300zxt shafts install fine ie 30mm with 29 spline. I thought on the R230 and the last of the R200 aka S15 with the Helical LSD have the larger input shafts (well that and the R200 used in the GT-R with the factory CLSD ie all those with the 6x1 input shafts, with the exception being the S15 HLSD with has the 3x2 bolt pattern)

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I am getting some mixed comments about the KAAZ unit. I had decided to buy the 240sx LSD unit SAN2655.

Got a price from RMS motor parts which seemed reasonable. I was just about to purchase when I decided to check the diameter and spline count of the half shafts. I had thought that the Z r200s were 30mm diameter and 29 spline count. However RMS motor parts told me that the half shaft inputs for the SAN2655 are 32mm dia and 29 spline count.

 

Now another thread saying that this centre works with 30mm diameter shafts. ARGHHH!

 

 

That is the part number of the centre in mine.  The previous owner had CV shafts in his so I wanted to check it would work with my standard shafts and that is the part number he gave me for the centre.

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Cheers, yeah I have talked with Vindicare about the LSD and CVs. Looks like I might just give the KAAZ a go. If it doesn't fit then might just have to look at custom stubs.

From all the reading it seems like it is the right one, guess someone just has the measurements wrong.

Will let you guys know.

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One other thing Scando. Vinidicare had mentioned that the KAAZ unit is rather noisy. I realise that your car is a race car and that it would rarely be going slowly (and noise from a diff would be least of your concerns), but was just wondering how you found it.

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Yep, it's very noisy and very tight.  When you turn slowly around tight corners the inside wheel skips a bit like you're running a weldy only not as bad.  And it makes all kinds of horrid clunks and bangs like it's about to fall apart.

 

When you drive hard with it it's still noisy (only around corners) but the motion is silky smooth which really surprised me.  I don't even feel it kick in and I feel just as confident knowing what it's going to do as I did with the weldy.

 

So basically, if you want an LSD for track days and don't mind if it's not real nice on the road then I think this is a very good diff for the price.  But if you only use the car on the road then I would lean more towards a 2nd hand one out of an import.

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Yeah noisy bugger, but works very well, im considering getting another in 1.5 format, life without LSD is mediocre, but I think I'm going to give a OBX a go first, see how that fares.(ps its not noisy when your hard on the gas pedal and drifting around corners :P, like it was designed for  ;D ) And FYI, the break in procedure is very tiring :D 8888888888888888888888888 for half an hour, that's a lot of 8's with no power steering. You think it is bad now, should of heard it when it was being broken in, 30mins of cringe, horrible metal sounds. Was good fun though, I'm sure it looked weird at 8pm in a shopping center car park  ??? . I wish it was adjustable, I think with a little less preload it would have been okay, but I couldn't get an answer from anyone as to the adjustability and when I search I only came up with a couple of no's. Apparently the Quaiffe is adjustable, but for 2k for the centre I'll pass. Next question, can a stock item be made to last and still retain good engagement? I really dislike the noises from my rear end.(dumdum....tis). Hey NZer, haave you used those balltec ones before, how are they in the noise department and engagement, noisy like the other options? Also don't have a LD28 intake I could buy off yah?(sorry for hijack) :P

 

Aaron

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No I only have my 2 baltec centres on the bench and not installed into a diff yet - soon I hope. Sorry no LD28 intake plenum I have only purchased cranks or bottom ends in the past not complete engines.

 

I have been checking/looking into using the LSD centre from a C200 aka rear of the Nissan/Datsun 720/D21 + some pathfinders as these with a little mod can apparently can be installed in the R200. However there are 2 type of LSD centres for the C200 - some have the 29 spline that we require and others have 31 spline. Also some have the M10 with other the M12 (ie spacers are required if your crown wheel is the M10 type). The little mod is simple and I have a C200 centre lined up to play with as if it does not work I will install it into my Narava D21 ute to replace the open centre so $$ will not be lost if it does not work.

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I'm sure it looked weird at 8pm in a shopping center car park

I am surprised that no one called the cops on you!

 

Next question, can a stock item be made to last and still retain good engagement?

I assume you mean a stock Nissan clutch LSD. One of the guys on Hybridz had clutch plates made so that they could rebuild the stock Nissan clutches and spaces and set their own preload. No they don't have any left and there doesn't seem like there will be a rerun any time soon. Also not sure if it makes them any quieter.

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Vindicare, can I ask if you changed the diff oil after you broke your diff in?

From the Kaaz website, they seem to think that the diff shouldn't make too much noise if broken in properly and had an oil change, but then again they could be lying or it could be our cars have such thin metal that the sound in a Z is a lot worse then in a comfy/sound deadend 240sx. Like the time when my exhaust hanger snapping and the sound of my exhaust momentarily hitting the ground was so loud I thought I had broken a driveshaft/halfshaft/diff.

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straight after the run in and then at 1k like it says in the manual. The first change was scary, it was basically metallic oil, but the second change was very clean, and when I drained it to send to scando I couldn't see any metal at all. I also only used their oil, as I bought 2 tins when I purchased the diff. If you heard what it was like when it was first installed you could well claim that it doesn't make any noise after the break in, it sounds completely different after the break in procedure was finished. In newer cars I think it would be quieter, but lets face it, we nearly sit on the differential, we're bound to notice more noise, however, it is a race orientated LSD and from what i've read most clutch type LSD's make a lot of racket.

 

We weren't doing anything crazy in the car park, just driving figure 8s, your not meant to lock it up, just work the plates in,  so there wasn't any smoke or anything.

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Fair enough.

I think for the price of the Kaaz unit, I am going to have to give them a go.

Thanks for all your help.

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I can supply an OS Giken super-lock mechanical LSD to suit the R180 in a 240Z (genuine bolt-in option unlike some) for $1990 including GST. This is a rebuildable and adjustable plate-type LSD that will give genuine 100% locking under power.

R200 version to suit 260Z and 280ZX also available.

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I can supply an OS Giken super-lock mechanical LSD to suit the R180 in a 240Z (genuine bolt-in option unlike some) for $1990 including GST. This is a rebuildable and adjustable plate-type LSD that will give genuine 100% locking under power.

R200 version to suit 260Z and 280ZX also available.

Those are the best mechanical (CLSD) on the market IMHO.

 

There is lots of stuffing around with others as Ben has stated, the C200/R200A units require striping, circlip groves cut into the side gears at the correct location and new clutches added to up the break a-way or the later S13/S14 etc shortnose centres require custom spacer made to go from the M12 hole down to the M10 bolts used on the Long nose crown wheel + all this if you an R200 already. If you have 240z with R180 you then need to get R200 moustache bar and maybe diff hanger if you have an early 240z (does not clear the R200) and then if this is the case you then need to have your drive shaft changed as the early 240z have the diff mounted to far forward...the list goes on.

 

So LSD install are never cheap they can be done on the cheap but with lots of work and stuffing around (assumes you do the work your self which is not for everyone as this stuff can get tricky and complex)

 

Again like many things on these cars - depends on your budget, skills and what you want to tackle your self.

 

Re the clutch in the Nissan units - yes they are NLA but as stated in hybridz someone was making custom units at one point. There are other solutions too involving a different manufactures plates that just need to be machined to fit ;) and these plates are still available and are a fair price too :)

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Thought you guys might be interested in this:

 

http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&type=&topic_id=31166&forum=2

 

This fella looks like he is building Torsen diffs to fit R180 and R200 at a relatively good cost. Has anyone had any experience with the diffs made by 'Topgear'?

Me - I had one of his torsen's centres for the H165 when I was going to build a 120Y coupe race car (sold that project a long time ago) the quality was amazing but I did learn a good lesson from all this wire bank transfers between NZ and AU get raped for fee's at both ends, cost me 30% more just in fees, so the next time I purchased stuff I had a mate in Melbourne pay AU to AU then when I came over on business I gave him cash and collected the parts - saves a packet.

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