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I have a hunch - and yes, it would be difficult to prove unless we both took turns to sit in the Mastermind chair - that I know more, much more, about the Z's racing and rallying history, and Nissan's racing and rallying history, than you. Sorry to be so gauche, but there it is.

 

I probably would not have been motivated to get involved in your thread but for the utter nonsense you wrote about Porsche. You're probably a lost cause, but it pains me to think of anyone else swallowing that garbage without having a little bit of a different point of view (let's call it 'reality'...) to think about too.

 

What 'utter nonsense about Porsche' Alan? Spell it out specifically. Your'e a disappointment, you dismiss facts that don't suit your agenda like the S30's SCCA championships and when I push that you get personal and try to act all superior. If that's the sort of person you are then goodbye..

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It was called The International Cup for GT Cars (that's 'International' in the global sense, not in the American sense...) and it was part of the FIA World Sports Car Championship. The cars were not prototypes (that was the World Championship of Makes) but - as I made clear up-thread - PRODUCTION based cars. The winning cars for Porsche during the '68 through '76 period were the 911R, 911S, 911RS and 911RSR - pretty much in that order too. So production based, homologated cars, a road-going version of which you could buy in a Porsche showroom. They would also sell you all the bits to go racing with it. I'm sorry but Nissan simply were not on the same page.

 

History. It's just one damned thing after another...

 

But in your post #3 you said Porsche won THREE different championships multiple times with production cars, now it's just ONE. Against what? Let me guess lol. Like I said, Porsche series shopping for the easy beat opposition.

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Big Sam for me. There was a good write up about it in Classic Car and Thoroughbreds mag about 20 or so years back.

 

 

Yeah, Big Sam looks a bit hit and miss to me eg the huge front grille opening should not be necessary for effective cooling and creates excessive drag. I'm not particularly pro US but some of their versions look great to me.

 

post-101215-0-39677700-1520911417_thumb.jpg

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That's my old car at Lakeside in late 2010 or up to mid 2011.

 

I also made it int the now defunct Australian Classic Car magazine on a couple of occasions, one as a general call to get more competitors for marque sports, in the late 90's and also in the report on the second Cootha Classic in 2010.

 

I have plenty more photos of this car, but alas, they are in Brisbane and I am in Jakarta.

 

All in all a pretty successful car in its day. It was first built to run in the NSW Street Sedan category in the early '90's by John Hepher running the standard L24 with twin Hitachi carbies and not much else other than better brake pads as per the rules.

 

It was then developed to run in Marque Sports, Division 2, basically the forunner to today's 2F Prodsports. This meant a change to an L28E and some wider tyres.

 

The next year it was further developed and run in 2B Marque Sports. Changes included gutting the car of all unnecessary interior trim and a move to slicks, using 18x8 wheels and Yokohama slicks from the BMW team before being sent back to Japan. A bit more weight reduction was also undertaken with the steel bonnet replaced by fibreglass after an altercation at Wakefield Park, and the hatch window and side windows were replaced with acrylic. Brakes were also upgraded with a set of Wilwood Dynalites from the rear of a Nascar and a set of Vovlo 2 spot calipers fitted to the rear.

 

I bought the car of John in late 96, replacing my ex Steve Cox/Jason Lea rally 260Z that I raced in Division 2 Marque Sports in 95 and 96. Some more development was done on the motor under my ownership, with teh guys at Z16 plugging away on getting more out of the L28. This included a new bottom end with the bore out to 90mm and a N42 head, that was better suited than the P90 for what we wanted, well worked to produce a nice torquey motor that was reliable. The computer was the standard L28 computer, but we found a trick with it where the injectors could be double pulsed, similar to the way the basically same computer in the V12 Jags were controlled. The next step was to upgrade the computer to a new flash Haltech F9. The car only ever went onto a dyno once during the 90's and that was to tune the car for the computer and the exhaust we trying some other things on. It made 150rwhp at the time, though the operator did ask what power we would like, so I have a healthy disrespect for just quoting power figures, the stop watch is the best indicator of power.

 

1997 saw me take out the NSW Marque Sports Driver's Championship with a consistent year of finishing just about every race in the top 5, and picking up some nice trophies for a few thirds and seconds. In 1998 I almost repeated the result, but missed a round or two as I couldn't afford the commute from Brisbane to Sydney, I relocated to Brisbane at the end of 97 for work, for all the rounds, plus I was taken out in the last round by a fellow Zed driver. That cost me the championship and figuring in the results for the year.

 

The car then spent around 10 years doing nothing other than the odd hillclimb or trackday as life got in the way. In 2009 a concerted effort was made to give the car a birthday and get it running again. At this stage it was with me in Brisbane, so back to Sydney it went for a respray and quick mechanical refresh for the brakes and suspension. On its return to Brisbane it went on the Dyno for a tune and was found to be not so healthy. I did the 2009 Noosa Hill climb with the motor not happy, but still making good torque, enough to have the 15" wets leaving two big licorice stripes through first and second gears off the line and entertaining the crowd wheel spinning out the tighter corners, especially the turn 10 hairpin.

 

2010 saw the motor rebuilt and when tuned made a healthy 200 or so rwhp on the dyno on the 15" wets. I ran in some events, including the 2010 Cootha Classic and the 2010 Prodsports Enduro round at Morgan Park, with Jason as my co-driver.

 

2011 saw me return to the Queensland Prodsports championship where the car was still reasonably competitive in 2B, and got a few comments because it was different. However 40 years of development in the general motor industry made the car pretty slow to others, but, it was still fun to drive and I was doing alright, consistently finishing in the top 4 or 5 of the class, depending on who turned up in 2B. At the 50th Anniversary Sports Car meeting at Lakeside, the car was helped into the wall coming onto the front straight where it met its demise. An estimated 140km/h into the tyre barries is not good for a 40 year old car, so it was scrapped.

 

post-100143-0-97567700-1520912794_thumb.jpg

 

post-100143-0-22669900-1520912833_thumb.jpg

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But in your post #3 you said Porsche won THREE different championships multiple times with production cars, now it's just ONE. Against what? Let me guess lol. Like I said, Porsche series shopping for the easy beat opposition.

 

Quoting myself but this is so much fun :) Looks like I was right about the Porsche cherry picking 'easy beats' comment, ran across the results for a Euro GT Championship round at Zandvoort. For starters nearly all the entrants were Porsches and why not, 911S's with 2495cc engines against a 1296cc Alpine, 1598cc Lancia Fulvia and a 1558cc Lotus Elan. Wow, what a competition. Not!!!! Only a fanboy and PZG302 could try to make something out of that.

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I know I shouldn't, but I'll bite....

 

I assume this is the website you cherry picked the results from Richard???

 

https://www.racingsportscars.com/championship/European%20GT%20Championship.html

 

So for the 1972 FIA, that's the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile, the mob that runs International motorsport, European Trophy for Grand Touring Cars I went through the published results of the nine round Championship and found the following:

 

The Datsun 240Z and the Porsche 911S and 911T all ran in the GT+2.0 class, the Porsche 914/6 ran in the GT2.0 class. I only mentions the 914/6 because Richard bought it up as a class contender to the 240 in previous posts, and they are a really cool car that I would love to own, having watched a genuine 914/6 running around at State meetings in NSW when I was racing down there in my 180B and Zeds.

 

Any ways, onto the results:

Round 1, Nurburgring 300km race only 1 240 entered, it finished down the order.

Round 2, Paris, no 240Z entered

Round 3, Zandvoort, only the one 240 entered and finished down the field.

Round 4, Nivelles, no 240Z's entered

Round 5, Nurburgring, again zero 240Z's entered.

Round 6, Hockenheim, two were entered, but didn't show up.

Round 7, Monza, yet again no 240Z's entered.

Round 8, Tour de France, one entered but DNF'd.

Round 9, Estoril, two were entered, one finished the race but was not classified, the other DNF'd.

 

What can we take from this when the majority of the GT+2.0 class cars were Porsche 911s or 911T models, well that Porsche built the better mousetrap, or GT car in this case. Most of the entrants were privateers, so they are getting their funds from, mostly themselves, as in those days it was still very much gentleman's racing.

 

The gentleman racer would not give a rat's arse where the best car came from, he would buy the best car to do the job. As we are talking 1972, the 240Z was very much available in the European markets, so that can't be the reason that only a handful were run.

 

The main reason was that for the GT categroy in the GT+2.0 class, the best car available to the gentleman, or any, racer was the Porsche 911S or 911T. The 240Z wasn't competitive against that car. There was no nobbling of the car or anything like that. Nissan/Datsun could have homologated whatever they wanted for racing in FIA events using the same process as any other manufacturer, and they did. Its just that Porsche built a better mouse trap.

 

When you look at the FIA homologation papers you can see that Datsun did a lot of work and gave the competitor who chose to run a 240Z, or derivative of, a very big box of tools to choose from. Porsche just did it better.

 

Hell, Datsun even got FIA homologation for the lowly 180B, which included fuel injection in 1977. 

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I have plenty more photos of this car, but alas, they are in Brisbane and I am in Jakarta.

 

I would love to see these :D

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Posted (edited)

I will be back in Brisbane late June, so can dig them out then.

 

Should able to find some earlier ones from the 90's when it was down south.

 

And here is a pic I found from early 2011 at Lakeside coming over the crest at Eastern Loop....

 

post-100143-0-05951500-1520927814_thumb.jpg

 

And when it was first built as a street sedan and coming through the loop at Amaroo....

 

post-100143-0-23638500-1520928426_thumb.jpg

Edited by PZG302

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Yeah, Big Sam looks a bit hit and miss to me eg the huge front grille opening should not be necessary for effective cooling and creates excessive drag. I'm not particularly pro US but some of their versions look great to me.

 

attachicon.gif 280Zx yellow race.jpg

 

I'll give you the bob sharp car, but the yellow 280? Those step side rear guards should be on a pickup truck. The early zed race cars usually had much nicer looks

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But in your post #3 you said Porsche won THREE different championships multiple times with production cars, now it's just ONE. Against what? Let me guess lol. Like I said, Porsche series shopping for the easy beat opposition.

 

They won all three. That was my point. not JUST the one that their road cars were eligible for. They were actively competing - with Works and Works-supported privateer cars as well as customers simply racing Porsche product, in multiple INTERNATIONAL championships. This isn't just pipsqueak local stuff. You honestly don't see the significance? 

 

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse, or if you are genuinely ignorant of what World Championship GT racing actually entailed in the period we are concerned with here (for me, that's the production and sales period of the S30-series Z)? You're busy telling me that IMSA GTU class wins are 'victories over Porsche' when Porsche's focus was on the GTO class above (because their premium GT product slotted straight into that class) and on the major 'classic' races that were taking part contemporaneously up the road (in Daytona, Sebring and Watkins Glen for a start...). Porsche were winning all over the world in multiple classes while Sharp was winning in Pigsnuckle Alabama. There is simply no comparison.

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I'm going to bow out of this thread for a little while as I have a 12 hour flight to look forward to. 

 

I'll set you some homework for while I'm away: Try looking up the results for all the races in the World GT Championships from 1969 through 1978 (hint: whilst Nissan was making and selling the S30-series Z) and see if you can find any Nissan/Datsun product in there.    

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So 40 posts any only 5 cars posted. A typical internet forum thread i.e. a lot of posts, with few relevant to the actual topic :)

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I have a hunch - and yes, it would be difficult to prove unless we both took turns to sit in the Mastermind chair - that I know more, much more, about the Z's racing and rallying history, and Nissan's racing and rallying history, than you. Sorry to be so gauche, but there it is.

 

I probably would not have been motivated to get involved in your thread but for the utter nonsense you wrote about Porsche. You're probably a lost cause, but it pains me to think of anyone else swallowing that garbage without having a little bit of a different point of view (let's call it 'reality'...) to think about too.

There are many, that are of very similar thought!

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Posted (edited)

two members cars below, pictures I took at Sandown last year. 

post-105351-0-39712600-1521438634_thumb.jpg

post-105351-0-53621500-1521438653_thumb.jpg

 

Edited by OdinZ

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Thats a jolly good one,,,, but he shoulda been out on the ripple strip!

 

;D was taken second lap, its not the easiest ripple strip to drag the car back onto after turn 4

 

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Good run Brett, Porkers don't seem to like turn 1 for some reason although the red one in front of you was driving some nice lines.

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