zr240 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I saw an awsome drive from a white 240z at phillip island historic by Peter Hall Came 3rd in the historic sportscar race doing high 1:54!!!!! Lurch I guess I was wrong when I said there is no way you could go quicker than a 1:55 in an historic zed!!! Does anyone know what he is running in it. ie engine spec as it must be a real good engine and handleing setup!!! Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Zedman240® Posted March 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 9, 2008 Apparently its just a healthy L26 making 230 rwHp. Another club member asked how he achieved it but he was very tight lipped! Its a 260Z 2 seater running with 6" rims on 185 semi slicks...how the hell does he do it? I guess its all in the handling.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zr240 Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 Thats alot of hp out of a twin su zed! Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.A.R. Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I told you it could be done Ash! Money thrown at some 'proper' car development, a healthy amount of revs(!) & a driver that knows what he's doing would be the key. SU's aren't a bad thing mate, they can be made to flow 'nearly' as much as DCOE Webers - they just don't have the response And of coarse he's gonna remain tight lipped - secrets aren't free... (Awesome effort by Peter too!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zr240 Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 Yer he must have the package (inc driver) right on the money! If its a 260z does that meen it has those flat top carbies??? Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddophile Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 If its a 260z does that meen it has those flat top carbies??? Unless he has been given concessions to run SUs, yes. The section of Sc regs on induction states that bore size is free, but make, type and number must remain as standard (but any period style manifold can be used). Which in theory means on SUs you could run some with much bigger throats. Engine wise, the block, head and stroke must remain original (or a CAMS approved alternative), but internals are free, and a 1.5mm overbore is allowed. Heads can also be modified by removal of metal only (guessing that means no larger valves!). So if you were smart, you would bore out the allowed 1.5mm, giving you about an extra 80cc of capacity. Then you'd use flattop pistons to bring up the compression (which incidentally would probably lose most of the displacement increase), and port the crap out of the head, to match the big and scary cam you just put in. Set of extractors to complete the picture, and you've got a pretty angry motor starting to form up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nat0_240_chevZ Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 If its a 260z does that meen it has those flat top carbies??? (guessing that means no larger valves!). So if you were smart, you would bore out the allowed 1.5mm, giving you about an extra 80cc of capacity. Then you'd use flattop pistons to bring up the compression (which incidentally would probably lose most of the displacement increase), and port the crap out of the head, to match the big and scary cam you just put in. Set of extractors to complete the picture, and you've got a pretty angry motor starting to form up. flat top or dished has no effect on displacement. just compression volume. stroke & bore is the only thing that governs this. Peters cars are all about less is more, less porting to keep intake velocities high. combustion chamber shape and cam is moreso what hes keeping tight lipped. the 2.8 + litres is a bit of a blur of the rules!!, as is the intake and head choice. nothing is ever what it seems on petes cars. i also am aware his son bens car is pumping out 260hp+ from the L, with throt bods and motec!, these motors love to spin and the bigger stroke is not always the way to go. I know a couple of people that know more about what he does run, but thats why he is so succesful as he doesnt tell all to anyone, one thing i do know is that the piece of crap that a members here ,ate sold over here was a bucket no matter what, pete waived his wand and got it running like silk, YES silk. even i was astonished with the response and tune fre the early hitachi/su type carbs. Peter really knows his Z cars and L series motors, and could teach alot of the eastern state z specialst a few hundred things or 2. not bad from some guy out in the hills who reapairs lawnmower motors!!!! nato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zr240 Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Hi nato Well it still suprizes me that a zed with std brakes (drums on the rear!) and too the sc rules can do it! Also it has to run the head that came with the car (E88 i think?) and as zedophile said its on 1.5mm overbore on his 2.6 block which would make it just under 2.8L??? (not sure if I calculated right) I agree on the bigger storke being not always the way to go as my old L race motor was not stroked and put out over 260hp aswell. I personally dont know of any z specialists in the eastern states or non i would take my car to Anyway Its one hell of a good setup zed in my book just would love to have a closer look one day Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nat0_240_chevZ Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 ill see what i can come up with. trust me when i say nothing is as it seems on his cars. its just really funny how people are flawed when thay have a quick look over his car. rear brakes, well how much do they really do when you are 11/10ths on the picks, good quality shoe and pad compouds do more than anything else in a braking system besides area!!!! adequete cooling & pad compound is the key on the fronts (as it is in any brake and clutch system). rules are made to be bent and maybe snapped into 20 pieces LOL. Pete is an old fart that knows almost every engine components combo there is within and outta the "rules" its like trying teach the creator hoe to make something he already created from scratch. old dog and old tricks. reminds me of the old "mothballs in your fuel to up the octane" trick, something you grandpa used to do when he was a kid!!! nato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260Coupe Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Guys I built and raced an Sc 240z a few years ago and I can tell you that 230 rwhp is a liitle unrealistic breathing through 1 3/4 " Hitachi SUs. I had my SUs bench flowed and the max calculated HP was around 220 (BHP - at the fly wheel), this was further backed up by my car marking around 118 rwkw (155 HP) on the chassis dyno, this however was on standard points ignition (yes I stuck to the rules- all other Zeds were running illegal 280 transistor ignitions) . I also had a set of triple 44mm solexs and squeezed 135 rwkw with the potential for around 145 with transitor ignition (yes this is from an L24) At the same time Michael Jones's Zed had around 110 rwkw in his Sc Zed and was doing 1:56s at P.I, so you don't need big HP just good handling and big conyonnies ! The week point was always the brakes, the pad material was critical, most race pads like Hawk or EBC were way too agressive and caused lock ups when hot (not enough tyre grip from the 195/60/14 A032s), I then when to a cheap and cheerful Lucas pad and they were brilliant and less than $60 a set and would last two meets (I was paying around $300 for hawk pads and flat spotting tyes). The new owner of my old Zed did 2:01s on his very first drive at last years P.I Historic meet (using the old Hawk pads and flat spotting tyres- I did tell him to stick with the lucas ??) and agreed the car would be good for sub 1:57s once he got the hang of steering a Zed and changing the pad material) I see now that most Zeds are also running with front spoilers (only the original rubber chin spoiler was homologated so all other types are illegal), I would suggest that Peter Halls Zed is making around 125- 135rwkw (170hp) on 2" Jag SUs with very good suspension/brake set up......and some damn good steering ability. This was my old Zed (with illegal front spoiler) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
620Z Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Yes nice car but remember the Island track is more a handling track than a HP track. With 285 semi slicks on, that would be a massive advantage. Then if you gut the car to make it as light as possible then you are going to make the most of the HP he has. That with some balsy driving and 4 wheel drifting everywhere then I guess you come up with a great time like he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zr240 Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 Well he only had 195 semi slicks! And there wasnt alot of four wheel drifting (not visable anyway). Was just very clean lines and nice driving. The Panteras and other v8s will still blow the zed away as the are still a few seconds quicker. Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
620Z Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 My mistake on the 195's. He must have been 4 wheel drifting everywhere. Pretty impresive on those tyres. I can tell you he won't be getting those times doing clean lines on 195 tyres alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.A.R. Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 My mistake on the 195's. He must have been 4 wheel drifting everywhere. Pretty impresive on those tyres. I can tell you he won't be getting those times doing clean lines on 195 tyres alone. You've gotta be joking Craig!? The ONLY driving style he'd be doing those times is, is with clean, fast lines while keeping up Maximum corner speed. Pushing hard yes. But 'Power Sliding'? Thats a sure fire way to loose time on the track. Come Go-Karting with me & I'll prove you my point /me opens up a can of worm's' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 A supercharged MX5 I owned a couple of years ago was set up by the previous owner who ran third in the 03 NSW dutton rally, that car had only 118rwkw and I had 205 semi slicks on it, it was running 1.57's at the island. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nat0_240_chevZ Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 My mistake on the 195's. He must have been 4 wheel drifting everywhere. Pretty impresive on those tyres. I can tell you he won't be getting those times doing clean lines on 195 tyres alone. You've gotta be joking Craig!? The ONLY driving style he'd be doing those times is, is with clean, fast lines while keeping up Maximum corner speed. Pushing hard yes. But 'Power Sliding'? Thats a sure fire way to loose time on the track. Come Go-Karting with me & I'll prove you my point /me opens up a can of worm's' Whats not nice? i also own a v8 Z and lets just say being lazy you can drive it slightly loose which feels very fast but the laptimes will beg to differ, but driving a high powered Z car on the knife edge is so thrilling, well more thrilling than grip racing. Why do you think those silly drifters took off in their own class! Even peter has mentioned that even though the drift racing is slow, its one hell of a fun ride aswell as good for the spectating crowds. something F1 would benefeit from im sure we would all aggree!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zr240 Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 Come on nato play nice Craig I saw the lines and they were very clean. he was hardly even drifting at all coming onto the main straight and most cars drift a little coming out of that corner! The thing with Phillip Island is carrying speed through the corners and even though I had more grip and power in my race zed I still needed to keep as smooth as possible if I had any chance of keeping up with the turbo porsches etc. As you guys may know my zed got down to 1:47 at the island and that was on second hand slick tyres and a lot smaller budget than alot of sportscars. I figured out it would cost me just as much to run an historic zed as the rules are so tight you really need to have good tyres/ brakes and fresh motor. Anyways hopfully the new racecar will be faster but we will see Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddophile Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 flat top or dished has no effect on displacement. just compression volume. stroke & bore is the only thing that governs this. I'd be interested to know why you say this? The dish in the piston is there when the piston is at bottom dead centre as well as TDC. If you are determining the size of your cylinder (ie. the whole volume at bottom dead centre), you would take the bore and stroke into consideration, then add the volume of the dish of your piston and the volume of the chamber in your head. Sure, at top dead centre your cylinder volume is only the volume of the dish in the piston, the chamber in the head, and the area between the piston and top of block height if your piston doesn't come up flush. No argument with that at all. However, while the cylinder is filling with air and fuel, it still has to fill the dish in the piston as well, regardless of piston position (assuming 100% efficiency of course). I know traditionally displacement only considers swept volume, but thats not exactly the whole picture when you actually consider whats going on inside the motor. And when boring it out 5mm gives a per cylinder increase of around 13.5cc, and the dish in my Rover 4.6 pistons was 28ish...... Not trying to have a go, just stating my view, and wondering where you are coming from with yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nat0_240_chevZ Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 /me opens up a can of worm's' Edited by Lurch - that's not nice Nato why the hell was that edited lurch, change it back, i was making reference to someone that drives a zed with a v8 in it like a Z with a v8 in it!!! and NO, the only thing dish has to do with anything is compression volume ie your displacement ends up compressed into your comb chamber , dish included, ie volume (displaced) div by combustion chamber volume = comp ratio, the dish is always in the same place regardless of bdc, tdc or half stroke. Think about it a lil bit more if i push a cup up and down in a cyl the only volume i displace is that i move the cup, not the cup volume. displacement is only that which you dis-place ie bore area x stroke x # of cyls = displacement. swept volume is yoou arctual displacement, your dish and combustion chamber is noted in tech papers as clearance volume. the intake strkoe (even @ 100% eff)never fils the dish as it never eptied it! so mainly takes part in mixture change, ie the intake charge has a slightly larger volume to mix with which therefor changes the intake mixture slightly, this is compensated for in the tuning and is why they used dished pistons in the design of the heat engine among other reasons too! Zeddophile, nothing personal taken, just a good topic for disc, sorry to thread jack guys, no lets get back onto petes quick "stock" class lap times!!! AND PUT MY POST BACK!!! i think my contribution to this thread has been more than useful, why is my opininon/jokes any less welcome than anyone else's, who is the softee here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators gav240z Posted March 12, 2008 Administrators Share Posted March 12, 2008 why the hell was that edited lurch, change it back, i was making reference to someone that drives a zed with a v8 in it like a Z with a v8 in it!!! AND PUT MY POST BACK!!! i think my contribution to this thread has been more than useful, why is my opininon/jokes any less welcome than anyone else's, who is the softee here? I saw the post before Lurch edited it. I think he was trying to stop anyone getting upset at what I thought was a relatively harmless jibe . I say harmless because as I understand it you yourself are a V8 Z guy? Anyway we'll see what Lurch has to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.A.R. Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 My apologies Nato. I guess I read into your comment too much... Feel free to re-post your comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
620Z Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 some of you guys talk about times at the Island with no personal experience under 1.55. I can tell you from personal experience and discussion with anyone doing those times or under at the island that they are all 4 wheel drifting (or sliding) to get those times. My brother has recently done 1.50's in his 240Z and he is drifting everywhere and he has 255's all round. I only say this because I see it when he pass's and I'm trying to keep up. Sure his car is more powerful and has wider tyres than the car in question so logic would tell you he is driving to the max as well. Until you have personally done those times I think you might be guessing at best what the driver is doing. By the way Lurch the V8 Supercars 4 wheel drift to hold their speed into long sweeping corners on all the tracks. Check it out on TV. Maybe try it your self and improve those times. :-) I was certainly doing the same on the back straight at Symmons Plains a month ago. Getting a 4 wheel slide doesn't mean you aren't doing nice smooth lines, all it means is you can carry more speed through the corner and you definately need to do that at the Island since it isn't a power track. The only way you know you are on the limit is if you are bordering on the 4 wheel slide. Edging between holding the lines firm on the corners and sliding slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scando Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 By the way Lurch the V8 Supercars 4 wheel drift to hold their speed into long sweeping corners on all the tracks. That's because they don't have a diff. When you have two back wheels fighting against each other you have to compensate somehow through driving or setup (Watch Craig Lowndes driving style, hard at the apex with a bit of a slide on entry and then silky smooth to get the power down on the exit). In my car with the welded diff I run a slightly stiffer rear end to get the rear to slide a little on entry instead of understeering. On the exits though I have to have the car in a straight line or it's just wheel spinning and going nowhere. I only run 215's and if I get carried away and don't drive smoothly then it's only quick for about 3 laps before the tyres turn to Jelly! It would be even worse on 195's! I can understand how your brothers car would be quick drifting a little on 255's because the wider tyres wouldn't heat up as easily. If you have no power and no grip then you have to be smooth to be quick. The more power and the more grip you have then the more you can afford to be aggressive and slide the car. That's my 2 cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260Coupe Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Mossy I agree , my NC MX5 in stock standard form (ie on road tyres) makes 102 rwkw and is good for a comfortable 2.01 at P.I..........a few guys in the MX5 club are posting sub 2.mins in stock new MXs It's all about clean fast lines with good corner speed (which the MX5 excels at), the fastest time I posted in my old Sc Zed in an Historic event (1:59 prior to the engine refresh) was done with very smooth driving and no drifting. The only "drift" that was apparent was if you have the conyonnies to go flat out round the sweeper onto the front straight and allow the car to "drift" across the track right to the endge of the ripple strip (same as thru turn one) which is more understeer push than a rear wheel drift (not enough RW HP to do that). The Sc rules state that you cannot run any wheel bigger than a 14 x 6 hence the 195 wide tyre, the old addage is that great handling improves grip immensly.......wider tyres may improve grip a little but do not improve handling. BTW l was at P.I and did not see any evidence of drifting far as Pter Hall was concerned, all his lines were consistant and as smooth as silk with great exit speed out of the corners. As a matter of interest the Porker 944s making less than 100 rwkw are doing 1:26s around Sandown......for a car with a greater kerb mass than a Zed that is a great time......and it's all down to the handling set up (and some good helm work of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zr240 Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 Ash you keep saying how fast your car is but I haven't seen it on the track for maybe 5 years or more. I might add that you wern't driving the car when those times were posted. Craig I think you will find I was drivig the car when it did 1:47!!! I can get the refering pages from Natsoft if you want proof. The previous owner of my car did 1:50's So I think you might need to check your history!! I also have in car footage of my car (with me driving) doing these times and Im not 4 wheel drifting. But I guess it depends what you classify as drifting as there is always a little slip as you are exiting some of the high speed coners. Your comments do piss me off a little as I raced my car for quite a few years in MS before some tosser in a porche t-boned me and wrote my car off, so Im sorry if I havent got bags of money to chuck at my car (like your car) so its taken me a lot longer to get my car back on the track. Anyway I dont want to pick fights with people but I think there should be maybe a little respect and check there facts before posting. Also I think lurch has run some events aswell But im not 100% sure on what exactly hes done? So to sum it up I have the exp on phillip island, I have video and actually have some datalogged info. Ash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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