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The Ebay Thread #2 - Post Ebay Parts Here!

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I suppose it’s a fine line when restoring cars as I must admit when you see some builds and what’s replaced using donor cars on to the original car, and in some cases there really isn’t much of the original car. 

What happens if that section of the firewall was rusted away and needing replacing....? Though yes I know that’s not the case but.....

So I guess doing it that way it’s just the other way around lol.

As we know that little section of the body of some cars is preconceived to be worth more then the rest of the car and some people will pay more just because of it when you can in most cases you can buy the same or even better car for less but maybe not just with the so called desirable numbers.

So my question I guess would be what’s acceptable a car that’s had that much replaced with donor parts compared to a good solid car that’s the same but with only the small section of firewall replaced that’s just happened to have some numbers stamped into it. 

Neither of the cars would then be original so which one is acceptable? And why?

Just my thoughts and we all know it’s been done plenty of times before.

Say you had say a very low numbered 240 and wrote it off and you also had a not so low but very nice 240 would you contemplate doing the cut and shut of the numbers or would you be happy just to let it go to the scrap yard? 

 

Just my thoughts and a lot of so called original cars are just a perception of being original.

Cheers, Justin.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Rickers said:

I guess be wary of cars starting with HS30121 :)

It certainly falls into the HS30-H build range. Since they were made in batches, and my HS30 register (spreadsheet with entries) has a nice gap around that area. ;)

5 hours ago, 600Z said:

Say you had say a very low numbered 240 and wrote it off and you also had a not so low but very nice 240 would you contemplate doing the cut and shut of the numbers or would you be happy just to let it go to the scrap yard? 

There is always a giveaway though, low VIN cars have a certain number of unique parts but even if you swapped them over there is some differences in body pressings etc.. The most obvious on early cars is the lack of storage bins. So a later car would have those and be a giveaway. Would you go to the trouble of installing the non-storage bins? But that's just 1 area that is different, there is others too. You really have to know these cars inside and out to pull the wool over the eyes of a true enthusiast.

Of course that only matters if you're trying to present the car as something it isn't. If you're rescuing a car and in the process a lot of the original car is lost that's ok, so long as you don't try to sell it as something it isn't. That's my opinion anyway.

As a side note I've seen a few of these types of auctions on Yahoo! not just for S30Z's, but for FD3S (Spirit R build plates) etc.. and not sure as to the legality of the situation in Japan?

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Posted (edited)

I reckon rebirthing of a stolen car is the bigger issue. 

If you can buy a legitimate chassis number cheap, stealing cars might be more attractive to some. 

Edited by Cozza

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2 hours ago, Cozza said:

I reckon rebirthing of a stolen car is the bigger issue. 

If you can buy a legitimate chassis number cheap, stealing cars might be more attractive to some. 

Absolutely - that is why we have the WOVR (Written Off Vehicle Register) it prevents people buying wrecks and using the VINS.

It is also why people should not publish details of the VIN for “Project Cars” - they are legit VINs that are not in use.

in the ideal world the WOVR would be global and would be also be coupled to a global version of the Veda CarHistory DB (mileage) we could greatly reduce cross border re-births and clocking.

Yes I am dreamin' , but how good would that be ?

Chers

PB

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Can you think of a business model for collecting compiling that data and making it available?

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18 hours ago, gav240z said:

Seems cheeky...

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/t574245694

@HS30-H any thoughts on this?

i-img1200x675-1528798739fwp3gk796250.jpg

 

Slightly blurred lines in Japan regarding the legality of removing/owning/selling identities in this way, but 100% illegal to pin it on another car. And correctly so.

S30-series Zs were 'unibody' construction, and the identity of that body is not transferable. Nissan didn't sell unnumbered replacement bodyshells, so you cannot "re-shell" one of these cars in the way that you can with others. 

At some point - apart from the moral/legal issues - it becomes a philosophical argument. One aspect that the end use of the above 'kit' that tends to get forgotten is that the recipient would have also had it's own identity. What happened to that? Often - as has been pointed out by Cozza above - it's because it's in some way 'hot'. Not good.

The reason I was so vocal about the supposed "ex-Works 240Z rally car" that was in the press recently was that it was NOT what it was being claimed to be. For many years it has been claimed that the car was "re-shelled", but that's simply not possible. The identity has been taken off of a particular car and pinned on another. Simple as that.   

I once read the thoughts of esteemed automotive historian Denis Jenkinson on the subject of originality and identity in racing cars, and even though they were written a long time ago they still pretty much ring true and can be applied to standard road cars too:

Original:
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have had to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The old-car industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as nearly original, almost original, even completely original, but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a new set of tyres or a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer original. Many components have remained original, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on, and reproduction parts are made to original drawings and original material specification, but this does not make them original parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as original, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a reproduction or facsimile.


Genuine:
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they disappeared into limbo or changed their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as Romulus is not original, as it has been repainted, re-upholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; it is unquestionably Genuine.

Authentic:
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career, through no fault of its own , but has never disappeared from view. The entity, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new body-work, instrument panel , seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The entity that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described as Authentic. There is no question of it being Original, and to describe it as Genuine would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.

Resurrection:
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases were such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassis/frame and new body were required and, from the bare bones or the ashes of the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a Resurrection from the dead, or from the graveyard.

Re-construction:
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built , its only connection with the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.

Facsimile:
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there was never an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and here are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a Replica of the four genuine cars, but such a situation is unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile , from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.


Duplication:
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as a basket case and with the left hand sold another incomplete car as a box of bits.The two buyers eventually found suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where there had only been one. Naturally each owner claims authenticity for his completed car. The Bugatti Owners Club and the majority of its members strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.


Special:
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be sufficiently finished to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off. The nice thing about specials is that they are a law into themselves and do not need to be put into any sort or category. A special can be totally accepted as Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile.

Converted:
There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the factory into a Type B and then into a Type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come, but it can never revert back to R4B.

Destroyed:
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.

Scrapped:
This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap an used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, then that car has gone forever, and the nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.

Broken up:
Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

   

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Thanks Alan,

I think that summary is a good overview of how I feel about the topic as I know you do too and hence why you bang on about the Rally Car identities. I also couldn't help but think of Big Sam and it's previous life as a "thinner" (PZR style body) and it's rebirth as another car later down the track etc..

26 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.

This gave me a good chuckle. Having seen this multiple times on various forums and places like BAT.

26 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap an used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, then that car has gone forever, and the nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.

This is what I thought of in particular when I saw the auction that started this discussion. As mentioned I've seen the sale of Spirit R plates for an FD3S being offered in a similar vein, although it would be very hard to fake such a car (I'm sure many try) given the chassis no. is checkable against a Mazda database. Along with all the unique parts for that model, but I've seen a rather craft individual here in Australia attempt to rebirth an AU market FD (which all had sunroof's like the UK spec cars) as a Spirit R and no late model FDs had sunroof's... Go figure. Like I mentioned above, a true enthusiast will usually be able to spot the fakes (given enough time to examine the details) but the less educated individual may find themselves with something that isn't as it was described.

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Hi 

Thanks for providing such a clear description.

A work mate owns the Toyota Celica that was one of the first “Race Cam” cars used at the Bathurst 1000, it is not made of 100% original parts but the lineage is very clear and well documented. It is a regular at Muscle Car Masters and Historic events.

Chris has always described it as Authentic.

 

 

 

E42CB71F-7F25-4004-85AE-365760761038.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, PB260Z said:

Hi 

Thanks for providing such a clear description.

A work mate owns the Toyota Celica that was one of the first “Race Cam” cars used at the Bathurst 1000, it is not made of 100% original parts but the lineage is very clear and well documented. It is a regular at Muscle Car Masters and Historic events.

Chris has always described it as Authentic.

 

 

 

E42CB71F-7F25-4004-85AE-365760761038.jpeg

Nice Celica, Is that Chris's car. He works for Toyota Head Office

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2 minutes ago, JDM-TOY said:

Nice Celica, Is that Chris's car. He works for Toyota Head Office

Hi

Yes it is Chris’s car.

He has recently left Toyota and started his own business - Classic Autosport in Kirrawee NSW - they are on Facebook.

It is a great car and still has a tacho in the dash on the passengers side (in the camera view)

 

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1 hour ago, PB260Z said:

Hi

Yes it is Chris’s car.

He has recently left Toyota and started his own business - Classic Autosport in Kirrawee NSW - they are on Facebook.

It is a great car and still has a tacho in the dash on the passengers side (in the camera view)

 

Yeah Chris is a nice guy, I met him a few times. He purchased one of my 18RG engines a few years back. I still remember his old school 80's trailer with steel HQ hubcaps lol.

That Celica has been in his possession for a long time. Chris also has a long history with Toyota Head office so I would definitely be comfortable knowing that Celica has a history too.

I was tempted to buy one of his friends MX32 Toyota Cressida Wagon, it was in mint condition for its age. Brought back memories from when my Dad had one when I was young. But I was going to do a 2JZ swap and JDM style it lol.

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22 minutes ago, AndBir said:

 

Interesting to see the inner reinforcing sections.

Yeah added photos above, might save them for future reference!

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