CAMS Australia and eligible parts for S30z's

[dat2kman]

Cut ff date for Group S is December 1976.

z cars have been given 15" diam rims, now.

Close ratio gearsets application s not necersary, we are allowed " Free internals to gearbox"

 

What we requires MK63 Calipers on vented rotors

7" rims. (8's and 10's are FIA Homologated for Group 4 only, not allowed)

Triple Mikuni carburettors.

 

No need for anything else, although lightwright fibreglass hanging panels would be nice, we already have pladtic side and rear windows

 

Overseas refers to MSNZ ( MotorSport New Zealand,) and SCCA ( USA) both f which allow option parts as available within period, to be fitted.

 

A 280Z factory fitted with fuel injection ( standard) it would need to be shown that a 280Z with Triple Mikunis, was built by a assembly plant at Nissan Japan, for use on publc roads ( a rally car) with triple mikunis, otherwise any 280Z will be at a distinct disadvantage.

 

When did Nissan cease to assemble the road registered rally cars?

[260DET]

Going by the rules and the various precedents set by allowing certain improved parts for other cars as already mentioned, to put up a persuasive proposition seems straight forward to me. Basically it requires original and official paperwork listing improved parts that were sold fitted to a new S30 by a dealer. It really can be that simple.

 

Must say though that it seems a bit strange to be going over this stuff in 2015 and still nothing has been accomplished, particularly considering the number of Sc S30's that must have been built over the years, with I assume some intention to try to win races rather than just act as cannon fodder. A lot of money too but apparently none actually spent on satisfying the invitation the rules offer to facilitate the building of a better car. Obviously the euro boys have not taken such a casual approach to racing their cars.

 

                     

[dat2kman]

Going by the rules and the various precedents set by allowing certain improved parts for other cars as already mentioned, to put up a persuasive proposition seems straight forward to me. Basically it requires original and official paperwork listing improved parts that were sold fitted to a new S30 by a dealer. It really can be that simple.

 

Must say though that it seems a bit strange to be going over this stuff in 2015 and still nothing has been accomplished, particularly considering the number of Sc S30's that must have been built over the years, with I assume some intention to try to win races rather than just act as cannon fodder. A lot of money too but apparently none actually spent on satisfying the invitation the rules offer to facilitate the building of a better car. Obviously the euro boys have not taken such a casual approach to racing their cars.

 

                   

Bruce Richards has stated that "either supplied and fitted, by a dealer, or, supplied and fitted by Nissan in Japan"

And " the cars must have been for public roads use, not Group 4 circuit race competition specials"

 

Due to there only being, on an annual basis, very few Z cars being raced, by hobbyist enthusiasts, who tend to just simply accept the regulations laid down, without any knowledge of what Nissan built, these hobby racers did not bother pursuing anything, and subsequently, the 2 or 3 Datsun Z cars, that regularly appear at Historic meets, run around behind the cars that have got the advantages.

 

Unlike The Morgan Motor Company, manufacturer of Morgan cars, who wrote out a brief single page, on company letterhead letter, that items X,X,X &X were fitted to new cars, none of us Datsun Z users have knowledge of who to contact at Nissan, that is able to understand what we are trying to achieve.

 

I certainly do not know anyone at Nissan. Six years ago, i was given an email address of a chap at Nismo, and introduced myself as a visitor to Japan, wherein I was escorted through their workshop, offered a GTR35 to purchase, and then escorted through Nissans Zama storage facilty.

Upon asking the chap at Nismo, he explained he was not able to assist in confirming what Nissan fitted to new cars way back then, nor could he point me in right direction.

 

Yes, I, and two others have been tackling this for over 6 years, to the point where the Head of CAMS Historic Elegibility, has practically told us to keep whatever we can get as simple as possible, and he gave me a copy of the single page letter from Morgan Car Company, and said, "like this!"

 

Now, who can point me to an email contact at Nissan, that we can ask to write out a single page letter, that simply states:

 

Nissan built xx no of Datsun S30 Z cars,  from year to year,

fitted with X, X, X & X.

Their japanese registration plates were, TKS xx xxx, etc etc

These cars were exported and used in Australia, Europe, Africa and the UK.

Signed,,,,,,,

Nissan Japan.

 

And that, in a nutshell, is what is required

[luvemfast]

Would anyone in the USA know who could supply this information?

[gav240z]

Would anyone in the USA know who could supply this information?

 

I would think Carl Beck of Zhome.com would know a lot about US market cars and dealer fitted options.

[dat2kman]

Over the years, I and others with Gp S Datsuns have made contact with Carl Beck, and others in the US, including some of the purchasers and the winner of the Datsun Z Pace Cars ( these were just painted up dealer stock moving mules)

It was in the US we discovered the large numbers of gentleman racers would buy a car new, trot next door to spares, fill the boot full of goodies, go home, fit, then go race in SCCA sanctioned events as Prod Stock.

 

As yet, and going by Carl Becks replies, not one Datsun dealer, as far as anyone knows, ever fitted the option parts to a new car, specifically for a customer, at customer request.

 

This is what has to have occured, to satisfy CAMS Austealia, no matter if in USA

 

We live in hope, that maybe one day, will appear, a set f Sales Dockets, from some however bscure, dealer, who did this, for his customer.

One day, these papers may just happen to turn up,,,,,, one day!

[260DET]

There is enough anecdotal evidence around to indicate that some dealers did fit wide mag wheels from new, all that is needed is one invoice giving details of the width of such wheels. But for most owners of such paperwork now there is a value attached and rightly so, which is why I suggested raising a fund so that a wanted advert could be posted in likely forums. Plus you never know what else of use may surface.

 

There is more than one way to skin a cat and it seems to me that wheel width is one of the most important equalisers Sc S30's would benefit from.

[gav240z]

Captain Obvious here, but have you not tried to ask for such information on Classizcars.com? You could sweeten the deal by doing something for them in return? They always want AU market parts... for example. Even though they call them 'euro' spec.

[dat2kman]

We need the brakes more than anything, but yes a rim from 6 to a 7 is a slight help.

Triple mikunis are needed to compete against these, in the German cars.

[hmd]

 

Better brakes and 225/50/15 tyres.

 

Need to prove factory options.

 

Lots of politics involved not as simple as it seems.

[d3c0y]

Surely at some point CAMs will have to acknowledge the fact that 40 year old paper work is just not viable to produce anymore.

[dat2kman]

Better brakes and 225/50/15 tyres.

 

Need to prove factory options.

 

Lots of politics involved not as simple as it seems.

Unless that size tyre was detailed, and fitted to a new car, it will not be accepted.

Certain German cars from their factory in Stitgart, only had 6&7" rims, with a e ER70x15 tyre fitted, new.

A dealer, in Australia, apparently, offered, and sold, the same new car, with a 7&8" rim, and 225/50x15 tyre, in mid 1970's.

Interestingly, in mid 1970's, same era, that size tyre did not exist, ie the designation f 225/50, it would have been the old fadhioned terminology, ie ER, BR, etc, the then "gun" tyre were Dunlop SP Sport, r a Uniroyal, the lowest aspect ratio was a 60% aspect, not 50%. We are talking 1974-1976 era!, majority on here were babies then!

 

We can certainly prove the period factory options, just jeed to get it in writing that they were fitted to newly built cars, by the manufacturer, at their factory, and that the cars were fully compliant for road registration, and supplied as such!

 

Yes, getting someone to remember what was done 35-40 years ago, can be an issue, however, quite a few have managed to obtain same, and they have geen accepted.

 

Does anyone know a pissible contact at Nissan Japan, that we may approach, in this regard?

The CAMS Historic Elegibility Chairman is still waiting for the information.

[d3c0y]

FIA Docs supplied by Jason

 

[Mike260LW]

Agree with Jason 100% - better brakes are the real need.  Things like triples would be nice but guys are making good horsepower on twin Hitachi.

My - "overseas" - take on it all would be that pretty much anything demonstrably used 'in period' should be within the spirit of the rules, but on a case-by-case basis. But then it's not me you need to convince...

 

Can we clarify, what is the cut-off date/period for 'period performance mods' in Sc please?

 

Supplementary question: Is one of the problems here the fact that Group Sc is concerned with "50s and 60s" cars as per Mike260LW's quote from the CAMS manual? Over there in the UK when the HSCC's 'Historic Roadsports' category was initially set up, they would only allow 240Zs that had been built in 1969 to compete (they had a pre-1970 cut-off) which was a bit ridiculous and was eventually relaxed. 

 

Alan, you are on the money here.  The S30 would be a far more competitive Sb car than Sc.  The reality is if you want to win in Sc you wouldn't start with a Zed! It seems to me the European Historic Motorsport scene is a little more enlightened when it comes to period modifications, particularly in respect to safety.  And that is the issue; the L26 is now producing double the horespower thanks to modern metallurgy, lubricants and 40 years of development.  My own questioning of the powers that be around "what about better brakes?" was responded to with a "you'll just have to drive it within the capabilities of the car" answer. Thanks, I'll try to remember that!

 

 

[dat2kman]

For Alan in the UK, a FYI,

In Australia Historic Group Sb is for cars suuplied, sold, or registered for public road use, up to december 31st 1969

 

Group Sc is for ditto, but period January 1st 1970 to December 31st 1976

 

We have tried the submission that Datsun 240Z is a Sb car, but the powers that be did not agree to that at all.

[260DET]

Whatever it is that is going to make a S30 Sc go better requires some determined and well directed effort, when is that going to happen? Class racing only makes sense to me when you have a car that has the potential to win if you the driver get it absolutely right on the day. Otherwise you have in effect given up before starting, bugger that, may as well do sprints with a car that potentially can do a better time than most

[hmd]

Whatever it is that is going to make a S30 Sc go better requires some determined and well directed effort, when is that going to happen? Class racing only makes sense to me when you have a car that has the potential to win if you the driver get it absolutely right on the day. Otherwise you have in effect given up before starting, bugger that, may as well do sprints with a car that potentially can do a better time than most

Your logic is contradictory, so if you go to a sprint and someone turn up with a GTR R35, you should just give up?

 

Everyone race for different reasons, otherwise the whole grids would just be Panteras. Not to mention in group Sc you also have sub-classes and the 240-260 Z are competing against 2.2,2.4 911, Alfa Montreal anything 2001-2600 cc.

 

I've done a whole lot of sprints before racing in Sc and I can tell you there is a whole world of difference between sprinting and racing. There's nothing quite like sitting on the grid with 50 other cars waiting for the light to go out.

 

 

[dat2kman]

Agree!

Where is the "like" button.

Rints/lapdash comes down to wjo has the biggest chequebook, etc.

HMD explains it re the sub classes with Group S

Also it happens often, that too many S cars enter a race meet, and organisers will run two fields, ie a Sa & Sb, and a seperate Sc grid, or Sb&Sc together, and Sa runs with JKL cars( another category f Historic car)

 

But yes, when you get a full grid of 50 cars at say Phillip Island, Bathurst or Eastern Creek, it is a whole dirrent thing, and very mch enjoyable to participate in!

[260DET]

Basically I'm just trying to gee some people up to do something and not sit back with a 'that's the way it is' attitude concerning the Sc S30. So my means justify the end IMHO.

 

I'm quite sure that real racing can be exciting having done a bit with other cars in sprints where it's not all follow the leader but I bet that after a bit of real racing the participants start thinking about winning. Jason certainly does 

 

The fun in sprints can be many and varied, beating big dollar cars, beating young blokes, beating P cars............

[hmd]

The fun in sprints can be many and varied, beating big dollar cars, beating young blokes, beating P cars............

 

Agree, same with group S. It's like seeing James Flett 260z giving it to Rusty French De Tomaso and the P cars.

Or a 1300cc midget giving it to the big block Corvettes in Sb watch this clip of him at PI.

 

[dat2kman]

Pr a 1968 Datsun 2000 drive around the outside of a Detomaso Pantera around Turn 1 at Phillip Island, then dissappear into the distance,,, in Sc category,,,,,

[260DET]

Yes Jason, but you were not driving a S30. If you were then you would be a hero

[dat2kman]

In 2008, 2009, and 2012 it was the S30, and yes, in Sc, and yes, in front of Pantereas, and all nar four, on a few occaisions.

In2010, it was the other car, and I took out all four races, incl the Vistorian Tourist Trophy for Historic Sports cars, an event that clebrates the originals, my thing was the only genuine Historic car in the field, not a replica.

Ran it again in 2011, the organsers were to

D to place me in with the later Sc cars, top 5 finisher there too.

Great fun

 

Now who wants a ready to race lap record holding Datsun Z car to go have fun with, up the pointy end, following James Flett around?

[260DET]

As far as starting the process of contacting the right person at Nissan, Japan, a chap from Nissan Australia was involved in NDN15. He even attended the dinner and spoke there. There was an opportunity lost, he is keen and seems like the right person who could start the process.

[260DET]

Reading up on the S30 racing years, interesting to see comments by the US drivers who went to the S30 after racing the Fairlady sports and how much better the S30 drove and handled than the sporty. Crude suspension performance and general handling saved by a powerful engine which was used to drive the car dirt track style.

 

Win Percy also drove a S30, one of the best handling cars around according to him. So properly setup and tuned suspension seems to be another potential advantage that the Zed has, compared with it's rivals. HTH