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MyEnquiringMind

S20 for sale...

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Meh, S20!

Quick! I'll get the stones (to throw at Jason)!

 

I'm bored with trying to defend my opinion now.

 

Just to make this really easy:

  • You have continually refuted my opinions, saying i don't get it. I do get it, I'd just rather spend my money on an L-series
  • I get the nostalgia thing and why it doesn't need to make 400hp
  • My original comment was actually about the TC24 head. Thriller made the comment you could have one for the same money as S20 and more power comment lol, not me.
  • Maybe using the term "wank factor" rubbed you up the wrong way  :P  toughen up princess 
  • As i keep saying, I don't think S20s are shiver but i do think they aren't good buying at the sort of prices they are today, case in point the one at the start of the thread for Y5m.
  • Preconceptions are not spoiled, I know you like going fast too but i promise i won't tell anyone.
  • I mentioned PMC once on the first page and I didn't bring him up again?

You've definitely been lucky with those two cars then and yeah i agree with the if you had them before they were uber expensive it makes it a much easier proposition. Still people do pay today's prices for them.

 

I'll admit I have committed the ultimate forum sin. I have not driven an S20 powered car like 99% of people on this forum. How different is it to an L24? I know they make less torque but rev harder.

 

Devil's advocate here - why ??

 

Why must something be "moderately fast" to be desirable ?

 

Because i like fast cars/bikes etc.* You can like the slow ones, I don't mind.

 

*Disclaimer: This is not a linear scale that can be applied to all vehicles. Levels of acceptable performance to Jake may vary depending on how cool said vehicle is.

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I think these S20 engines should be looked at like a BDA well not really as BDA's were made in larger number and you can even find new casting for the BDA/BDG engine eg http://www.sasengineering.co.uk/bdabdgheads.html

 

BD* (ie BDA, BDD, BDG etc) engines command a big price tag these days so given the S20 is an even more exotic piece of kit why should it be any different?

 

Having seen HS30-H cars in the flesh there something special about the S20 engine even if they don't have the torque and power of a L28. It would be like owning a LY24, LY26 or LY28 they are special, rare, Nissan Factory Works bit of kit and that is why you want them not everyone has one aka it is special. We all like to feel special.

 

We like our Datsun's that is why we are on forums like this - weather your go for a large stroker, modified body work, rb repower or v8 between the struts whatever floats your boat. I am not an MG fan so to me it is just another MG.....and lots think that about our zeds - it just a Datsun (lumping a 240z with a Cherry or 720 ute etc).

 

TC24 - have a cool factor from the engineering that goes into them - art work if you like. Would I want one? Hell yes. Just like I would want an S20. The engineering in the S20 engine is just amazing, and if you have seen one in the flesh you would understand - that is just the engineer in me (ok studied electrical engineering then moving in electronics and computers - but I still have a great appreciation for the engineering that goes into these engines).

 

But if money was no object then there is really only one path that I would take. LY head and try to get a foundry to recast them. Now that would not only be cool but just outstanding as then you have something special that is FIA approved for the S30 chassis unlike a TC24.

 

But money does come into it for most/all of us - so we do what we feel we can afford to do for our given goals.

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Even rarer than S20 or Ford BD series, is,

FJ24

I only have one, but that will do me!

True - so rare I forgot about that too ;)

 

Even the FJ20 you don't see for sale much any more (well here in NZ anyway - they are becoming more and more like hens teeth)

 

I just want one of those rare Kakimoto "Datsun 260z" rocker covers like Benny sold a few years back as that would go great on the 260z track car ;) that would satisfy the rare parts need right now 8)

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  • Maybe using the term "wank factor" rubbed you up the wrong way  :P  toughen up princess 

 

Hey sweetheart, want to have a peep at some L-gata porn from 1971? Stick this on an L24 and what have you got?

 

safarihead104.jpg

 

safarihead102.jpg

 

 

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Hey sweetheart, want to have a peep at some L-gata porn from 1971? Stick this on an L24 and what have you got?

 

 

An L24 with a factory race head i'm guessing? It must be a factory special with round exhaust ports and closed face chambers.

Impressively big ports on that thing, what sort of numbers does it flow on a flow bench? What diameter are the ports?

Pretty cool that is has the coolant pipe on the manifold too

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This is an interesting topic. Is it an FIA head? What are the differences or advantages over the regular heads?

 

Also what would classify as period mods, and can you share some the period mods done on your Cars, in particular the hako

 

 

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Well for starters it has round exhaust ports which in theory should flow more and it's got the external water rail for even cooling of the combustion chambers.

 

 

 

 

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Well for starters it has round exhaust ports which in theory should flow more and it's got the external water rail for even cooling of the combustion chambers.

correct a completely different casting to the standard series production items. So one can only guess that things that we have to overcome with the standard head to gain x by welding this and do that to get y the engineers did all this back in the early 70's and then cast up these special items. Why well they were the factory so they could and like so many of these type of parts the accountants and management would not allow these to become standard series production parts. This could be down to a number of factors ie safety too much performance for the Joe public, too costly to mass produce and would not met environmental requirements.

 

So what we are doing today with the stock head the factory must have known and corrected with all these special castings. Again it does always come down to mass production costs vs performane for the budget the accountants/manufacturer will allow. Remember the designer wanted the light covers with the chrome bands fitted to all S30z but the accountants stopped that.

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This chat makes me think of my old Shogun MTB collection fetish... To me, they bring back something from my youth and mean something special, but to anybody else, they'd throw it on the hard rubbish pile, quicker than you can say "S20". For the same cash you could go out and by something alot nicer, but I have tried that and I didn't like it. Bought a later MTB and have since sold it in preference for something 20 years older.

 

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Have these ever been reproduced like the twin cam heads?

that would be a no...they are rare items and if you had one would you cut it up so more could be made? In fact you might need more than on to cut on the off chance that someone can cast up a replacement.

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See Jarrod what you done posting that link.

An outright war lol.

 

I started the z scene with bang for buck and went rb route. Did i give a rats butt about nostalgic or original? Nope.

 

Now bit older and over 10yrs exeprience in z cars things have changed somewhat.

 

Would i pay 80k + for a 432 with s20 oh hell yeah.

 

Would i pay 30k+  for s20 maybe not unless i have a ps30 shell with s20 missing or hako gtr.

 

Would i pay 15k+ for worked L with 300hp well hell no.

 

Would i pay 15k for rb26 with 600hp+ in a z hell yeah.

 

Would i pay 20k  for us iron with 1000hp hell yeah.

 

Like d3coy said everyone to them selves.

 

I love hi-tech i love classic and i love original. Cant have all in one car so you buy few and have all.  :P

 

 

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Remember the designer wanted the light covers with the chrome bands fitted to all S30z but the accountants stopped that.

 

I heard they also wanted to make the front slated grill go all the way down below the bumper, but the bean counters put a stop to that also due to cost :).

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I am surprised by how this thread has grown...

 

Without even thinking about it too hard, I recognise that I would pay a lot of money for the "right" car... and as I have appreciated that over the years, after spending bazillions of dollars on modified Datsuns that the "right" car for me is an original car. I love the fact that my early Z is going up in value and not down... and in saying so, I recognise that keeping my car original costs more than modifying it in the first place...

 

I also know that I am definitely going to own an S20 in my lifetime, and it wont even have to be the "right" car... the possibility of owning a Z432 replica is high on the cards of my "want" list... a hakasuko very close behind... a real PS30 a dream, but again, if the "right" car comes along, then the boss is going to have a hard time convincing me not to do it...

 

I love the healthy debate and I love the broad spread of people and their passions on this forum... for right now, I have been distracted by an CSP311 that is begging to find a place in my garage ;) scandalous I know, but at least it is still Nissan :)

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for right now, I have been distracted by an CSP311 that is begging to find a place in my garage ;) scandalous I know, but at least it is still Nissan :)

Do it - they are a very cool little Nissan and very different, and rare too. I have never seen one in real life - I have seen a Toyota 2000 GT and a Merc C111 (one of match box toy I played with as a young boy along with a Lambo Miura and a Datsun 240z Speedkings - sort of explains why my 260z has flares and black bonnet as that is what the Speed king 240z was like ;)) I know I will never own the other 3, 2000GT, C111 and Miura but I have owned a number of zed ;)

 

The CSP311 is a special little car you have to consider that for sure.

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An L24 with a factory race head i'm guessing? It must be a factory special with round exhaust ports and closed face chambers.

Impressively big ports on that thing, what sort of numbers does it flow on a flow bench? What diameter are the ports?

Pretty cool that is has the coolant pipe on the manifold too

 

It's the 11041-E4621 cylinder head, as seen in the FIA homologation papers for the H(L)S30 ( FIA 3023 / JAF GT-010 ). Internally at Nissan it was nicknamed the 'Safari' head, even though it was never used in anger on the E.A. Safari Rally. Essentially it was a 6 cylinder version of the 4-cyl FIA head, and was always intended to be used with Nissan's race 'ECGI' electronic injection system with triple side-draught throttle bodies.

 

You can see some details of the head on the homologation papers ( amendment 5/5V ). Compression ratio was intended to be 11.0:1 with a 36.2cc chamber. The heads were individually sand cast ( stock heads were die cast ) and the architecture was completely different to that of any of the stock production heads. The inlet manifold was used as a log to join the cooling passages together, and the cooling properties eliminated any hot spots / cool spots.

 

Assembled on an L24-base, capacity upped to around 2500cc within the rules, with the option E4621 narrow-journal high strength crank ( got one of those if you want a look ), narrow journal rods, 8-bolt 7kg flywheel and the full ECGI injection setup, it was given the internal reference code 'LR24-ERY'. They were used in Japanese circuit racing in late 1971 through 1973 in cars like the Omori 'spider' car in my forum avatar, sometimes alongside LY24-ERY ( 'LY' crossflow on injection ) equipped cars.

 

Remember that this was the period when people were saying that the American teams ( and BRE in particular ) had "taught" the Japanese race team staff at Nissan "how to tune the L24". In fact they already knew very well what they were doing. One of the main differences - and this carried on right through the BNR32 Gr.A GT-R era with the NISMO ( actually Reinik ) tuned RB26DETT being compared to that of the Gibson Motorsport team in Australia - was that Japanese domestic racing was more often concerned with endurance racing rather than sprints or multiple short events as seen in SCCA racing in the USA. The Japanese race engines were somewhat pegged-back in ultimate performance in order to make them last. It wasn't just about peak dyno figures.

 

I just find stuff like this endlessly interesting. It gives me a wry smile when I hear people talking about the "ultimate" L6 engine from their favourite tuner, when stuff like that above isn't really all that widely known.       

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Yes they were great in the day , and still engines like this make all Datsun people look and drool , and id love to own one , I have a 4 cylinder version ,  but things have moved on and engines have gotten so much better ,  and so have engine building technics and equipment  , the engines we are building  are making more hp and lasting longer  than ever before ,, I just wish Datsun , Nissan had built the cars with larger wheels and tires like some German cars so we could play on a more level play ground ,,,

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Yes they were great in the day.......

 

.....but things have moved on and engines have gotten so much better ,  and so have engine building technics and equipment  , the engines we are building  are making more hp and lasting longer  than ever before

 

Yes, but so what? I don't want to appear flippant ( you're building some great engines, and more power to your elbow and all that ) but what's that got to do with this? This is why I keep thinking that some people don't really 'get' it. 

 

Do the people who buy Ferrari 250GTOs take off the carbs and put injection on them, put sat-nav in the dash and swap the wheels for forged 20" alloys with 30-section tyres? No, they don't. They want the oil painting, not the RAW image file on a memory stick.

 

 

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....and still engines like this make all Datsun people look and drool....

 

If only more 'Datsun people' knew a bit about the ( racing ) heritage of the cars, and especially what the factory race teams were doing with them. In my opinion, we need MORE knowledge and awareness of that in our community.

 

Your average old 911 owner will know a lot more about the 911's racing heritage than your average old Z owner will about his car. You'll also see far more 'period correct' themed modified 911s than Zs, and that's a bit of a shame. It's also one of the reasons why the early Z doesn't get the respect it deserves, and why certain race sanctioning bodies give the early Z such a hard time. 

 

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How's that book coming along ?

 

I'd love something in the vein of Shin Yoshikawa's 2000GT book, for Z's (hell there's a million of them for 911's). For now, some old Nostalgic Hero mags are doing the job. Don't understand a word of them, but it's nice to drool over the pics.

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It would nice if there was more of the kit around that the teams used too. I have 2 sets of mk63, some early 280zx rear brakes and the correct factory adapters to mount there 280zx rears. To begin with my car will run a stock l28 stock body work and jfz/Sierra 4 pots front and rear (local rules allow it, they are made from the original 70's foundry/moulds and I can run 11.4" rotor like the scca 4 wheel setup Datsun competition in the USA sold) later I will rebuild the mk63's I have and run the correct fia setup.

 

Other things I would like to find or build replica of is the direct drive dog leg gearbox. Having all the fia bits would be nice ie a head like that shown etc...but that is unlikely to happen unless some started selling them new.

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Are there any books which focus on Japanese circuit racing in the late 60's to early 70's? This is all interesting stuff, I've never heard of or seen the 'Omori spider' before. It looks awesome!

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Hey Allan, I would love to see more pics of LR24 and LY parts, particularly the injection systems. I didn't know that they even made an LY24 i thought there was only an LY26 and definitely didn't know they were injected. This makes me want to change my motor to injection!

 

Yes, but so what? I don't want to appear flippant ( you're building some great engines, and more power to your elbow and all that ) but what's that got to do with this? This is why I keep thinking that some people don't really 'get' it.

 

We do get it (i say we because you said the same thing to me), i guess if you look at it from the point of view that Pete is just furthering the development the factory started and fixing some of the mistakes they made along the way. Because at the end of the day they were just normal guys working in a Nissan factory. I have read plenty of articles where classic car shops update old motors from 50's jags 60's Astons and Ferraris with modern methods to make them more reliable, efficient and livable.

 

Again completely as it was back in the day is great and hats off to the people like yourself that keep them that way. I also agree that all this Japanese racing info on zeds isn't more available. i think there are a lot of people who would love to read about it, myself included!

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