Jump to content


Photo

Clean energy future and Carbon Tax


  • Please log in to reply
72 replies to this topic

#21 sco_aus

sco_aus

    The 2000+ club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,484 posts
  • Location:Canberra, ACT
  • Tagline:Scott

Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:42 AM

That was my point, I'm not going to bother quoting a website. 
My problem with the Carbon Tax is that the goal is not good enough.  5% is nothing over 20 years.  Why not aim higher and make it worth while? 
I don't claim to be an expert and no I haven't done much research, ignorance is bliss.

#22 perrin_07

perrin_07

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 130 posts
  • Location:Vic
  • Tagline:New Member

Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:19 AM

there would be a climate change happening anyhow, humans are just increasing the rate at which it will happen. Even if we got to the goal we all want, its still going to happen as the Earth goes through many cycles. Its had alot of these patches through its birth and it wont stop now. Im all for cutting carbon emmisions, recycling etc, but climate change is going to happen regardless.

You don't get to have an 'opinion' on whether the Earth is flat or round - it is round, it's a simple fact.


obviously u have never heard of the flat earth society :P. They.....they are dead set serious the Earth is flat :)

#23 260Coupe

260Coupe

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 596 posts

Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:35 AM

Firstly - I am true believer in climate change as it has been occuring for the last 4.5 billion years........so I am not a denier or a sceptic - I only deny that man kind is causing "catostrophic global warming that will see temps rise by 8 degrees in the next 50 years"- as one "expert" told us all. 

Ok so let us for a moment accept that Anthropogenic climate change is proven (which it is not - only those who have a vested interest in making us believe it is so will keep peddling this mantra) 

Please answer this -
When the Carbon Dioxide tax comes into play -
How much will the earths average temperature decrease by and how much much will it cost.? - funny that not one of our lefty politians or a single "climate" scientist will answer that !!!!

The best estimates are .004 of 1 degree and this may take a thousand years to take effect (confirmed by that fool Tim Flannery who said "it may never rain again" - hence why we have desal plants costing billions which will be never used )

The drought of the last ten years was caused by the El nino (the cyclic warming of the Pacific Ocean) - we will now have 10+ years of wet which is caused by La Nina - the now cooling of the Pacific Ocean 
BTW - the last volcanic eruption in Indonesia spewed out more CO2 into the atmosphere than what man has put out in the last 100 years.- fact stated in Scientific American journal

Also - notice the subtle change form the "Global Warming" hesteria to the new term "Climate Change" - this is very convenient way to blame every weather event of man made CO2 emissions ....(and please stop calling it carbon polution as CO2 is not a polutant) .....are you kidding me ???

The only "inconvenient truth"is that this CO2 tax is all about the political need to balance the budget, rake in more revenue and distribute it to the labour/green voters to buy more votes. The climate change debate is perpetuated by those who have a vested interest in "green technology" - Al Gore has major shares in wind farms and other major US/UN funded green energy projects - fact. 
"Climate Scientists"are funded by the current government - Scientists who wish to prove the negative and there are many thousands of them, get no funding and are ridiculed as herotics  !

Now that half the country is under water does any body notice the conspicuous absence of Tim Flannery, Ros Gaunet (spelling) and all the rest of the doomsday profits telling us we will be drinking our own urine in 10 years , not to build dams as they will never fill and to spend billions on desal plants (that consumed massive amounts of electricity thereby pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere !!!!)

Some facts

It is now raining - and lots of it.
Sea levels have stabilised and are now falling
Arctic ice may be less than previous years but Antartcic Ice has increased significantly
The Great barrier reef is not dead
Average temps on earth have not increased in the last 10 years

The next thing you'll hear is Bob Brown blaming these floods on the coal industry again - what an imbecile 

In closing - it is impossible to have a logical deabte on this subject as anyone who disagrees (with the alarmists) and has evidence to prove it is shouted down and ridiculed .

Al.

#24 sco_aus

sco_aus

    The 2000+ club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,484 posts
  • Location:Canberra, ACT
  • Tagline:Scott

Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:38 AM

Well said Al

#25 Jimbo

Jimbo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 186 posts
  • Location:Omeo

Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:07 PM

Great reply Alan.    I could not agree more,    Spot On...Well Said...

#26 DAZDA

DAZDA

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Datsun Mafia Headquarters (Canberra)
  • Tagline:Brap Brap Brap

Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:04 PM

...
The only "inconvenient truth"is that this CO2 tax is all about the political need to balance the budget, rake in more revenue and distribute it to the labour/green voters to buy more votes.
...

Al.

  You can't say that Al even if it is the truth, the Labor/Greens voters might get upset...  ;)



The only comments I wish to make are;
Fact - Plants absorb CO2 and H2O (water) and through a process called Photosynthesis produce an orgnic compound (food for the plant) and release O2 (Oxygen).  This one is like the earth being round, it is a scientific fact.

Surely with all that extra CO2 all the plants will love it, absorb more light and therefore cool the earth??  Won't that cool the oceans?  But wait, the oceans are supposed to be warming, has anyone told all the plants!!!  ;)

"The rate of energy capture by photosynthesis is immense, approximately 100 terawatts,[3] which is about six times larger than the power consumption of human civilization.[4]" - Sourced from here


#27 DAZDA

DAZDA

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Datsun Mafia Headquarters (Canberra)
  • Tagline:Brap Brap Brap

Posted 07 March 2012 - 02:18 PM

Back onto the topic at hand;

I guess I'm concerned that we might get punished for owning an old car by being made to pay more taxes,

Yes - Carbon Tax from July (cost of parts for old cars, fuel will go up despite the government's promises - we know they don't mean much) and there will be more taxes

higher rego and green slips,

Yes - Although it's disguised by being the other way around, in that pretend 'green' cars get cheaper rego in some states, and the gap in price will only get bigger
http://www.vicroads....trationFees.htm

restricted usage,

Yes - Bound to happen.  Just give the media and politicians enough time to brainwash society some more


#28 saxon

saxon

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 407 posts
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:05 PM

Even if man made global warming is true (which it isn't), I fully endorse it. It's fricken cold in Melbourne already and it's Feb. Where did our summer go?

edit: oooops it's March, still... it's cold and I don't like it!

#29 AussieZed

AussieZed

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 273 posts
  • Location:Belconnen, Canberra

Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:49 PM

Hey folks,

Yep climate has always changed and always will - but it is about the rates of change. Animals and plants can evolve to deal with relatively slow change and not with high rates.

Predicting the actual amounts of warming is difficult - but the climate has warmed since the Industrial Revolution measurably and continues to do so - there will always be variation year to year, but the average trend over time is warming. The last winter was the warmest in Melbourne in 90 years.

Please answer this -
When the Carbon Dioxide tax comes into play -
How much will the earths average temperature decrease by and how much much will it cost.? - funny that not one of our lefty politians or a single "climate" scientist will answer that !!!!


It will take at least 100 years for CO2 levels to stabilise and then drop. The carbon tax is about trying to reduce the rate of increase. So climate change will continue unless we take much more drastic action than the carbon tax. But personally I'd rather try and reduce the damage we are doing than just ignore it. The estimated costs of climate change are in the Garnaut Report (it was written by an economist after all) - they are in  the ballpark of 100x the cost of the carbon tax.

The best estimates are .004 of 1 degree and this may take a thousand years to take effect (confirmed by that fool Tim Flannery who said "it may never rain again" - hence why we have desal plants costing billions which will be never used )

I don't quite get the rain and temperature connection here, but ok. Best estimates are a 3.5 deg increase by 2070 for Victoria.

The drought of the last ten years was caused by the El nino (the cyclic warming of the Pacific Ocean) - we will now have 10+ years of wet which is caused by La Nina - the now cooling of the Pacific Ocean

Yep, droughts aren't climate change. But if you superimpose droughts on a drying climate then things get really scary.

BTW - the last volcanic eruption in Indonesia spewed out more CO2 into the atmosphere than what man has put out in the last 100 years.- fact stated in Scientific American journal

Can't find anything which Scientific American said like that (remembering Scientific American also isn't a scientific journal). Volcanic eruptions on the scale of Pinataubo in the Phillipines are about the same as one months human sourced CO2.

Also - notice the subtle change form the "Global Warming" hesteria to the new term "Climate Change" - this is very convenient way to blame every weather event of man made CO2 emissions ....(and please stop calling it carbon polution as CO2 is not a polutant) .....are you kidding me ???

Climate change is what scientists have been calling it for decades. Global warming is a really old term the media like. Climate change for south eastern Australia has been predicting for almost a decade long dry spells (10-15 years) interspersed with extreme wet spells (2-3 years), and changing patterns of rainfall, favouring summer extremes. These patterns were first predicted in 1986. But for other places it won't warm. Poor old NZ is getting cooler and wtter.


The only "inconvenient truth"is that this CO2 tax is all about the political need to balance the budget, rake in more revenue and distribute it to the labour/green voters to buy more votes. The climate change debate is perpetuated by those who have a vested interest in "green technology" - Al Gore has major shares in wind farms and other major US/UN funded green energy projects - fact.
"Climate Scientists"are funded by the current government - Scientists who wish to prove the negative and there are many thousands of them, get no funding and are ridiculed as herotics  !


Strange that most climate research in Australia was done under the previous right wing government - who actively sought to suppress research findings to the extent of firing scientists from CSIRO. As a scientist I would love to disprove climate change - it would make me much more famous than agreeing with it.

There certainly aren't thousands of scientists who 'wish to prove the negative' (which wouldn't be a very good way to approach the science - sounds like some pre-conceptions). Across all areas of science the major scientific bodies put the percentage of scientists who doubt anthropogenic climate change at less than a tenth of a percent. That would be less than a hundred people in Australian science.

Now that half the country is under water does any body notice the conspicuous absence of Tim Flannery, Ros Gaunet (spelling) and all the rest of the doomsday profits telling us we will be drinking our own urine in 10 years , not to build dams as they will never fill and to spend billions on desal plants (that consumed massive amounts of electricity thereby pumping more CO2 into the atmosphere !!!!)

I don't think very many environmentalists proposed the desal plant. More a political decision, that one. As outlined above the climate predictions for Australia predict extreme wet years - the problem is that we need to plan for extreme dry ones, unless someone can find a magic box to store water in.

Some facts

It is now raining - and lots of it.

True enough. See above.

Sea levels have stabilised and are now falling
Not true. No studies support falling sea levels.

Arctic ice may be less than previous years but Antartcic Ice has increased significantly
Not true. Arctic Ice has declined significantly, Antarctic snow pack has increased, areas of ice are within the range of previous years.

The Great barrier reef is not dead
Very true. Did anyone say it was going to be??

Average temps on earth have not increased in the last 10 years.

Not true. Global average temps over the last decade are up 0.55 degrees - at the upper end of the worst predictions made a decade ago. 

In closing - it is impossible to have a logical deabte on this subject as anyone who disagrees (with the alarmists) and has evidence to prove it is shouted down and ridiculed .

Not shouting you down at all - nor am I using inflammatory language like 'alarmists', claiming anyone is saying stuff just because of their political inclinations or bad mouthing any individuals.

Happy to have a logical debate, but that means making sure the facts are sound as a basis for that debate. Some of the ones in previous messages are wrong.

R.

#30 saxon

saxon

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 407 posts
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:09 PM

Deleted

#31 sco_aus

sco_aus

    The 2000+ club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,484 posts
  • Location:Canberra, ACT
  • Tagline:Scott

Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:21 PM

Way out of line Saxon, keep your personal opinions to yourself mate, no personal attacks are welcome here.

#32 PeterAllen

PeterAllen

    The 1000+ club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,340 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Tagline:Manana!

Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:34 PM

...retards ...retard ...


As a parent and carer of a disabled person I find your implied use of this word offensive.


#33 saxon

saxon

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 407 posts
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:14 PM

Sorry Peter, i am very un pc, i didnt mean to offend you. Ive deleted my post.

I still think its a valid point. I dont care what climate change scientists say because their jobs depend on funding from governments, which they only get if they make a lot of noise about the impending apocalypse. And the best and brightest scientists dont become climate change scientists, simple as that.

#34 tbscobraZ

tbscobraZ

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 295 posts
  • Location:Sydney- Normanhurst

Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:46 PM

Sco_aus I wasn't personally attacking you. When I said "I can't believe there are people out there that are soo blissfully ignorant and unaware of the damage being done to the in environment as we speak." I wasn't directing it at you personally although I can see how you thought that with my post being above yours. Truth be told I hadn't even read your post. I imagine you have noticed damage being done to the environment. My post was partially in reaction to a person I encountered in person who I gave a decent serving too because they suggested that humans have no impact on the environment whatsoever. Being someone who has done research and read many articles from lots of places and studying this exact subject, I felt the need to state some facts. One of which is that anthropogenic climate change is happening and is proven. However it goes beyond that what I focus on is all forms of human damage such as the increases in hard surfaces, water pollution, land clearing etc. There are many people out there [Silly alarmists and other people with agenda's eg. "Tim Flannery, Ros Gaunet (spelling) and all the rest of the doomsday profits"- AL] who also do more damage than good by stating nonexistent things such as because of climate change there are soo many cyclones and floods. That is all unproven crap and not science! Also I would like to point out that I disagree with the Carbon Tax!

#35 perrin_07

perrin_07

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 130 posts
  • Location:Vic
  • Tagline:New Member

Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:51 PM

would be great if it didnt get so personal. Why cant people have a logical debate.

Its clear both sides have some great points, and until its proven completely i dont think people will change their mind from the views they have.

there is another age coming (most likely ice) whether we like it or not. When it gets here is totally up to us.

#36 sco_aus

sco_aus

    The 2000+ club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,484 posts
  • Location:Canberra, ACT
  • Tagline:Scott

Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:54 PM

I realise you aren't only attacking me, but the statement was about people in general who have a different opinion, this is a debate, not a fight.  I appreciate your opinion and your reply, but I maintain my position. 

#37 RB30X

RB30X

    The 1000+ club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,981 posts
  • Location:Gladstone QLD

Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:17 PM

So to all of you who believe in global warming, does it make you all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that slowly but surely the big Mining and Manufacturering Industries are taking their work offshore which will cripple our economy. They can do the same thing overseas for half the price due to this global warming tax that has been placed on these companies based on a theory, and the money the government is stealing from them isn't actually going towards helping the issue?

Do you feel good knowing that even if Australia suceeds in reducing its carbon production by forcing all the big companies elsewhere, that it will be a piss in the ocean compared to the amount of carbon produced by countries such as China or India.

So we all suffer due to a lack of jobs and poor economy. Our kids grow up hearing what a prosperous country Australia "used to be" while India and China continue doing what they do, and the world runs out of food and we all die before anything we've done to contribute to 'saving the planet" even has time to take effect.

#38 Quandary

Quandary

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:26 PM

So to all of you who believe in global warming, does it make you all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that slowly but surely the big Mining and Manufacturering Industries are taking their work offshore which will cripple our economy.


Being from Gladstone I thought you might know a little better the situation we have up here. Mining is going nuts at the moment and there are some astronomically huge projects that are impending. I work as an urban planner in Rockhampton and our areas and further west in CQ are just going off. Most people would be pretty astonished to be driving out so far west and arrive in a town with a brand new thousand lot development that looks like some new estate of an middle/upper class of a city sprawl suburb. I think mining is here to stay. We have many hundreds of years coal left in us to go. The only crippling is to those regions with FIFO's because Council's response to housing demand has been inept. As for manufacturing going offshore, it's been recognised as in danger long before the boom and carbon concerns.

They can do the same thing overseas for half the price due to this global warming tax that has been placed on these companies based on a theory, and the money the government is stealing from them isn't actually going towards helping the issue?


I'm not in support of the tax, but there is still a fundamental need to address the concerns of people that live in the areas they call home and have raised families for years before these kinds of mines came to town. No different to a developer building a few units on an allotment. The developer pays for the infrastructure, pays for the connection to the existing infrastructure, and is essentially paying for the burden of additional loads to sewerage, reticulated water, traffic, etc. Mines are equally responsible for their loads to infrastructure. Every coal train moving along carries $3m worth of coal inevitably heading offshore. We're kidding ourselves if they can't afford to contribute something. No doubt some of them have in some form or another (eg. built roads, local services like gyms, town water infrastructure, etc) but often because it is in their own interest. The issue is to their extent of obligation to contribute to the community living in the area they are pillaging.

Do you feel good knowing that even if Australia suceeds in reducing its carbon production by forcing all the big companies elsewhere, that it will be a piss in the ocean compared to the amount of carbon produced by countries such as China or India.


Many countries look to Australia to set precedence for environmental matters. I'm not sure why as we historically one of the biggest environmental vandals around. However, we have succeeded already in China admitting and planning to reduce carbon with both a tax and a trading scheme. I'd like to think we had some part in their decision. And since the writing is on the wall for these carbon intensive industries. It's those guys who are pouring large amounts of money into the 'renewable' energy projects like solar and thermal.

So we all suffer due to a lack of jobs and poor economy. Our kids grow up hearing what a prosperous country Australia "used to be" while India and China continue doing what they do, and the world runs out of food and we all die before anything we've done to contribute to 'saving the planet" even has time to take effect.


I'm not sure about the lack of jobs thing. It really depends where you are willing to go to have a job. Interestingly, we are experiencing something in Aus we haven't seen before, the generational unemployed. They've grown up in unemployed families and have grown up in welfare living, are uneducated and unwilling to work, but whinge like no other.

#39 Quandary

Quandary

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:34 PM

I still think its a valid point. I dont care what climate change scientists say because their jobs depend on funding from governments, which they only get if they make a lot of noise about the impending apocalypse. And the best and brightest scientists dont become climate change scientists, simple as that.


You would be hard pressed to find any scientist call themselves a climate change scientist. They are climate scientists and being scientists are interested in facts. Thankfully some scientists are funded by government, but unfortunately not enough. Government would rather be out building third world demountables, installing flammable pink batts, and paying off hookers.

It's going to be hard to deny climate change when it's not only argued by climate scientists, but also chemists, geophysicists, etc. And not to forget the average Joe who is living on a Pacific island where his people have lived for hundreds of years and have a deep understanding of seasons and weather patterns and are now watching their islands slowly "sink".

And to counter your point about government funded scientists (which I argue they should be doing anyway), what about those skeptics caught out funded by industry / some of the largest companies in the world? It's nothing new.

#40 RB30X

RB30X

    The 1000+ club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,981 posts
  • Location:Gladstone QLD

Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:34 AM

Mining is fairly low in energy consumtion so it will always be around, but look at what we are mining and where we are sending our products. Its going overseas to be used in high carbon producing industries.

Now if the govenment actually cared, they would stop exporting these minerals to countries that arent making an effort like we are.

If this occured they wouldnt be able to tax the sales and they wouldnt have as much money in their deep pockets. 




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users