Convert a 2+2 to a 2 seater - discuss.

[PeterAllen]

I've had a bit of a web search but I can't find any discussion on this. I guess the USA is probably the only place where someone might try it but they have plenty of 2 seaters anyway and seem more interested in making them RHD.

 

Is it merely a 'cut - trim - shut' requirement? I think the doors are longer and might also have to be trimmed or 240z doors fitted. Just curious.

[zzzzed]

doors  are longer on a 2 plus 2 roof line is different and the rear quater windows are also different. besides it being un safe, for what it would cost in man hours, it would be cheaper to buy bennys 2 seater and just drive it

 

[Sirpent]

Everything back of the firewall is a different dimension.

 

On the floor pan just before the upward bend to the firewall there is a seam that runs across from one inner sill to the other, these spot welds are released to allow the 2 seater rear to be welded in place.

 

The sills need to be sectioned at least 70mm back from the floor seam on the inner side, and another 70mm on the outer side to meet repair industry standards, if there is an inner reo the the reo needs to be sectioned 70mm back fro the inner cut and the outer 70mm from the center cut to create a stagered or step section, butt welding the sill sections together is structurally unsound and is not passable.

 

This 70mm staggering is the minimal measurements between sections, the longer the staggard cuts the better.

 

The window pillars have to be done the same way as discribed with the sills.

 

And if the rails cannot be released for a cut section with the rear cut, then the same stagering procedure needs to be done.

 

Hope this helps.

[PeterAllen]

Thanks John. If I have read you correctly you are referring to grafting a 2 seater rear onto a 2+2 front. Though some of the steps would be similar I was trying to ascertain how a 2+2 itself might be modified to a 2 seater wheelbase, shell shape, etc. Purely hypothetical.

 

If someone has a photo of a 2+2 shell in the area behind the front seats I would be interested to have a look. Thanks.

[Sirpent]

Peter as Mick stated it wouldn't be worth the hassle, you could use 2 seater doors, but it would mean taking the better part of 15cm's out of the roof and sectioning it.

 

The rest of the sectioning on the sills and floor would have to be done to the degree I mentioned previously.

 

The reason I know about cutting and shutting a Zed is because I did it on my panel shop partners 260z 20 years ago after he wiped off the front and we found a doaner front end.

[gilltech]

If the underlying idea is to make a 2+2 Z look like, or more like, a 2-seater Z, then the main issue is, obviously, the roof line. If the 2+2 roof was to be reshaped to the more flowing 2-seater roof shape then that obviously affects the side windows & panels, the rear hatch etc etc. Pretty major work. Option 1 - perhaps limited to a re-shape the car's roof & pillars, but retain the longer wheelbase of the 2+ 2; or go further yet with option 2 - shorten the wheelbase so to perhaps graft on 2-seater roof & rear panels & use 2-seater doors & side windows. Note that the 2+2 is slightly wider across the back end, adding a complication for 2-seater panel grafting.

Best to simply join the front end of a clean Z to the back end of a 2-seater Z & be done with it, should one have a couple of good shells laying around, as noted in a post above.

But nothing is impossible. There have been lots of modified cars over the years that look as if they could be factory products or factory prototypes. Take the 1960's-era after-market station wagon or shooting brake conversions of various cars like Mustangs & Zephyrs for instance - today they are highly collectible. And there are firms in the USA today who convert early Mustang hardtops into fastbacks or convertibles due to the preponderance of hardtops available (far more were built) & the far fewer sound rust-free fastbacks & convertibles.

Interesting topic & something that many & in particular 2+2 Z owners have no doubt pondered.

[Patch]

I am looking at fitting a 2+2 roof to my 240z,the front pillars on the 2+2 lean forward to the front more allowing the roof more height for the back seats,where the 240 slopes back more, the roof seems to be the same from the front top of windscreen to the hatch top edge on the 240, so I will cutting the roof at the front top corners and using the top front frame and will be welding the roof at the top hatch edge, if you try the chrome strips of both cars they are very close,where the back side windows are I need to come further forward with the cut as that changes there as well, so need a dogs leg on both sides,From this point back the roof frame changes for the differnt shape side back windows. I am Pretty sure mine can be done with out seeing it.

 

Or I could try and find a 2 seater roof which are not cheap but would be easier.

 

[chartoo]

I originally bought a cheap 2+2 but i was really in love with the 2 seater. I did i lot of looking into converting it. I found that with a lot of effort  you could swap the left and right rear windows and invert them to make a 2 seater styled 2+2 window but the bit you couldn't over come was the hump of the roof or the extra length of the car. In the end i waited and got a 2 seater. Im sorry for the 2+2 lovers but i really just couldn't get over the rear hump. 2 seaters are more sexy. As a mate said the 2+2 are the males and the 2 seaters are the females of the zed world.

 

PS That brown zed was a $50 swizz cheese zed that was so dead and parted out . I didn't murder a good zed but i did practice on, salvage and murder a dead zed lol

 

Also the blue zed is a Photoshop of a 2+2 body with 2 seater roof line but i dont think it could be made in reality with out a lot lot of work

[MaygZ]

What about just take out the back seats and then extend the boot floor forward.  At least it would be 2 seater on the inside. 

[gilltech]

FWIW, that's exactly what Shelby did with the '65 Mustang fastback, which was also a 2+2 - removed the back seat, inserted a larger boot floor panel, & the car became eligible for the two-seater sports car class for racing purposes. Enter the Shelby Mustang GT350. But I digress.

Interesting feedback by Patch, saying that the Z 2-seat pillars are different in angle to the 2+2, I had assumed the roof differences started immediately back from the windscreen top, not at the bottom. So on a sidenote, can 2+2 roof skins be used to infill sunroof holes on 2-seaters?

[Zedback]

I found the 2+2 roof skin to be substantially different from 2 seater, front edge is the same and it just gets steadily more different the further back you go.  Its deeper, wider and completely different profile.  I used the pillars and top frame rail from a 2+2 as donors on my 71 rustbucket - no noticeable difference other than a heap more spot welds on the later 260.  I also used the side rails but with a fair bit of modification.

 

I reckon the longer 2+2 would make for a very sleek variant of the 2 seater look - more euro GT'ish.  Best bet would be hot rod sites and seriously bone up on roof chops.  The rear inner and outer pillars/quarters need serious modification to lower the height of the hatch hinge panel and hatch frame.  Roof side rails from the rear of the door back would have to curl down to match.  Modifying the roof skin to match... priceless!   

[gav240z]

Interesting I've also considered this having owned a 2+2 the roofline always erked me. I would think a lower roof profile and a reshape on the rear would look the bomb with reshaped 1/4 windows.

 

The longer and wider wheel base of the 2+2 is meant to make it more stable so you could really have a kick ass hot rod. Retro fit 240z rear lights and most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

I would definitely mock up in Photoshop like chartoo second pic or use other 3d modelling to see if the proportions would work I imagine they would.

 

I'm pretty sure Mr Matsuo wanted a lower roof profile but in order to accommodate tall Westerners had to raise the roofline.

 

You could use the Toyota 2000gt for inspiration on rooflines since that car has 1 of the sexiest rooflines ever.

 

I'm sure I saw a guy who was working on a chop top 240z looked great will see if I can dig it up.

[gav240z]

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/645045/1973-datsun-240z

 

Here it is looks amazing.

[Patch]

[quote author=gilltech So on a sidenote, can 2+2 roof skins be used to infill sunroof holes on 2-seaters?

 

Okay I am going to say yes,and unless I can get a 2 seater roof for a reasonable price this end of the country I am going to try it, here are some pictures of how close it is, will need to just hopefully jack the middle of the top frame up 5mm to give the same bow in head rail as I need the head rail both sides. and at the door frame the roof cut will have a dog leg and the the roof will be welded on the top edge of the hatch frame and the 240 side rail.

[Patch]

On the photo of the chrome strips where the clamps are is the part I am using of the head, that is at the widows edge, and has you can see it just needs a little curve to match, from that point back it changes too much.the 2+2 is the bottom one, as you can see different angle in the windscreen posts.

[gilltech]

So if the 2-seat vs 2+2 windscreen posts lean back at differing angles, are the windscreens themselves (the glass) still the same? ie interchangeable?

[Patch]

I have been told yes, so hope so as I hope to use my 2+2 in my 240z, as you can see there is not much of a change of angle, just enough to allow more head height for the back seats. I am using the top windscreen frame with the roof and that is the same.

[gilltech]

Yes I hope they are the same, my original spare screen came out of a 2+2. Currently my 260 2-seat has a replacement screen which is clear glass - following an insurance claim due to stone damage - and, being really picky I agree, doesn't match the remainder of the glass which has a light blue tint. So one day would like to swap them over.

[620Z]

Some people have to much time on their hands.

Whilst I admire the massive task you are undertaking.

surely when all is done and completed the cost and time would not out wiegh just getting a 2 seater. Especially when looking at the resale value presuming it is going to be a road reg car.

Each to there own.  :-\

[PeterAllen]

Seems there is more to a 2+2 than just being a stretched 2 seater.

 

What initiated this thread was an enquiry I had about a 250 GTO kit I am selling on eBay. Someone asked if it would fit a 2+2 and I said "no". However, I then started to think, (something I frequently do AFTER I have spoken!) considering there are body modifications required to fit the kit, although minimal, whether a 2+2 could in fact be adapted. As I stated before, it's a hypothetical.

 

A suggestion about the roof. If you were to cut out or unpick the existing roof of a car you are restoring I'm sure there are plenty of sheetmetal shops with an English Wheel that could make up a copy.

 

PS. The kit I am now fitting does away with the hatch and also has a fibreglass roof which sits over the original metal roof.

[Patch]

The front and bonnet are the same and would fit, the door is longer and so is the space from wheel arch to door frame, and I think the back is wider. The wheel base is longer with the 2+2 so proportionally would not look right as a copy of a 250 GTO, I would stick with your first answer and say no.

You could make it fit with work but don't think it will look right.

[Retro Z]

I tried to convert my 2+2 about a year ago aswell and the only way to properly do it is the way Sirpent said. (Unpicking the seam in footwell etc) in the end it was way too much money and labour so i sold it and got a 240z and haven't looked back.. i suggest you do the same as there are many cheap 2 seaters that pop up frequently, just have to be willing to jump on one when they come up.

 

If your still willing, here is a comparison pic of the 2 cars.

 

 

 

[PeterAllen]

Could some IT literate person place gridlines over the image above and repost it? Thanks.

[Patch]

If this is not big enogh size send me your email and can send bigger size.

[chartoo]

I did a quick roof chop for you. Now its a 2+2 coupe. However i still think the amount of time, fabrication, money and engineering involved would make a            2 seater purchase seem more logical. And when its all finished despite all good intentions it just mightn't look good. But go for it i will def watch the build thread.