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#21 PeterAllen

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 10:38 AM

I had thought along similar lines with pressure can of Fill-e-leak (sp?) or the like but someone told me that it was disastrous for wheels as it set like concrete and attached like nothing else. You could possibly clip it off steel wheels but was near impossible to remove from alloy wheels without damaging them.

No first hand experience, just passing on what I've heard.

I don't see those products advertised anywhere these days!

#22 zzzzed

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 01:42 PM

I have a frind who works in a tire shop and he absolutly hates the stuff because he has to clean it off before changing the tyre

#23 Sirpent

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 03:01 PM

All great points guys, and yes I had similar concerns when  started to look at these types of products.

Just to address some of the points

I have a Friend who works in a tire shop and he absolutely hates the stuff because he has to clean it off before changing the tyre


I had thought along similar lines with pressure can of Fill-e-leak (sp?) or the like but someone told me that it was disastrous for wheels as it set like concrete and attached like nothing else.


Mick, Peter,

Unlike the old stuff that you would buy in a can and would solidify into a hard filler in the tyre, this stuff stays liquid, I watched this vid also showing a tyre repairer taking off a tyre and cleaning up before a proper repair of the puncture, so cleaning this isnt that difficult and I would pay a tyre place another $20 if need be rather than driving on a $300 tyre and destroying it as a result of a puncture


Great idea John but note the warning at the bottom of their web page..........that is only use as a repair for high speed application as it may cause excessive vibration when installed in front tyres or all four tyres

http://www.slime.com...ducts/sealants/


Too true, but I would get the emergency kit which means carrying a can in the car and a small compressor, that way it would only be a short stint before actually getting it repaired



OK, so did some measurements today of the spare wheel well for those that are interested, the well is just over 650mm in diameter with a depth of 200mm, however due to the clamp down rise in the bottom creating an irregular shape, the depth would decrease to 180mm, this would make a tank insert flat with the rear floor.

Therefore, using some 8th grade math I remember

(Surface area of well size) 32.5 x 32.5 = 1056.25
(multiplied by Pi) 1056.25 x 3.14 =3316.63
(Multiplied by depth) 3316.63 x 18 = 59,700
(Convert Cu cm's to Litres) 59,700 / 1000 = 59.7 Litres

More than enough I think

If I make some enquiries with some fabricators after working out the plumbing, would anyone else be interested in a group buy ?

Cheers

John



#24 PeterAllen

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 03:36 PM

John - If I've got this right, you propose fitting a new fuel tank where the spare tyre well is at present. If you are removing the original tank wouldn't you be able to lower the new tank approx 100mm and have it sit at the same ground clearance as the original tank. That would allow you to recreate a new tyre well around 100mm deep and go a fair way to maximising your overall boot space.

This is assuming you don't wish to run dual exhaust.

#25 Sirpent

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 03:48 PM

Peter,

Idea is not to touch the wheel well or alter it apart from cutting in a feed point for fueling from the original neck.

That way the original tank is gone allowing for a dual exhuast set up and most probably that area will accommodate the mufflers, I would run an aluminium heat shield above them to deflect heat away from the wheel well, this way the structure stays intact, I get 60 odd litres of capacity and I now have the room for the mufflers, looking at it today I will probably run the pipes off exiting the mufflers to the original outlet point on the left hand rear lower valance.

The new tank will sit internally flush with the floor so I don't lose any cargo space albeit no spare either.

#26 tir33d

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 04:53 PM

DON'T USE THAT SLIME ON THE ROAD...............
You can get similar products here is oz but all create issues. That stuff is mainly designed for use with four wheelers, wheelbarrows and such.
To use the correct amount in a car tyre will leave you with 500gms of liquid moving inside the tyre - making it IMPOSSIBLE to balance.
Now an unbalanced wheels isn't a huge problem - I own a tyre shop and don't balance my track wheels, but this stuff makes it violent - not just a light shudder.
A better suggestion for me would be to carry a good quality plug kit. But the reality of this is that you will generally have to jack the car to install it.
Other option is use Run flat tyres with a pressure sender in each wheel. Much harsher ride and twice the price for tyres.

#27 Sirpent

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 05:06 PM

Great to always get professional advice, very appreciated.

However as I said I would use it as an emergency i.e. get a flat in the middle of nowhere, use the kit, get the tyre repaired within the next 100 km's, would that be OK as a stop gap?

Cheers

John

#28 chartoo

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 06:09 PM

Can you get standard petrol tanks in donut form? I just had a look on ebay and they only have lpg donuts...

#29 Sirpent

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 06:18 PM

Nop

Has to be fabricated, but its not complicated, will find out and post some prices tomorrow for anyone else who may be interested.

Cheers

John

#30 tir33d

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 08:09 PM

only works on some punctures, a stone through a tyre will generally leave a larger hole. For you city folk a nail will generally seal. If you plan on using this make sure you have you little kit. Most of the bottles come with a plastic valve tool on the top. I would also suggest getting a valve tool or at least an old style metal cap with the tool hidden under the rubber top - still available > they come on truck tubes. Obviously you need to carry a small compressor although you can now get really small co2 cannisters that supposedly fill the tyre (mainly used for motor bikes but I imagine if you had 2-3 of them it would give you pressure to go again.
Problem is that when your tyre is pumped back up its to easy to forget to get it repaired.

#31 nizm0zed

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:04 PM

you should run your fuel tank idea past your engineer mate just to clarify.
I know with newer cars you have to have a 'firewall' between any fuel tanks and the cabin.
The boot/hatch area is considered the cabin.
You may get around it on the zed due to its age, but even then its safe practice to include a firewall over the tank.
Add that into your dimensions.

Also, for the clamp down rise in the bottom, could it not just be cut out?
It wouldnt be that big a hole and it'd also be a great point to run your feed lines out of.
End of the day, you need a filler pipe in, 2 fuel lines and a breather line out of the tank, and a minimum of 2 wires, assuming the pump and sender are grounded on the tank body. (the breather line obviously going to the vapour expansion tank in the rear quarter)

#32 Sirpent

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:29 PM

Alan

100% correct about the fire wall requirement, but the tank would sit in the well and an aluminium circular plate would then have to be bolted over it therefore forming a firewall, the main neck and associated fuel lines would still come down through the 1/4 panel floor area and then sweep into the tank via a small access cut in the wheel well.

Fuel pumps, well I still have to consider where, but I would probably be looking at a separate weather proof housing along side the wheel wheel on the undercarriage.

The vapour expansion tank would be retained as I would have to commply with the 75 emission control system that also incorporates the carbon canister as the bare minimal compliance with the new motor.

I guess the argument here is if it is a viable solution, I don't fancy even thinking about putting my old tank back in as it sat for 16 years with unleaded in it which turned to a very brownish varnish, and of course I would like to use the old tank space to configure a better exhaust set up.

The clamp down bracket is spot welded in, no problems removing it, what I was referring to was the area it is spotted to, it's like a raised hump 2cm's in height, like an upside down plate on a flat surface, Interestingly, for each cm of height increase the well, an increase of 3.33 litres is possible, 18cm tank height equates to 60 litres, 21cm's would equate to 70 Litres.

Cheers

John 

#33 nizm0zed

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:16 AM

your just a master builder guru arent you... ;)

Have you considered an internal fuel pump? It would take up some volume, but on its own wouldn't be much.
If that route were taken, perhaps even an internal baffled surge area?
TBH, i would be partial to an external pump, as per your prevous suggestion, i guess it just seems easier? If you get what i mean?
See, you have me thinking now, with a tank like that i could set up a nice dual exhaust (purely for asthetics) and get some nice underbody aero diffuser mods happening.

Coz thats all i need now, More things to modify...
Thanks.... ::)

either way, i'll be watching with interest to see what the rough costs come out at.

#34 Sirpent

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:11 PM

OK

So, I know this thread has been slightly hijacked and I apologise for that, however I did speak to a fabricator in my area today and based on the dimensions and what I explained I wanted, he gave me an indicative price of $450.00 for a tank built of 3mm aluminium all TIG welded.

The basic design (Rudimentary as I didn't have time to do a more detailed one) would be along the lines of the attachment, Internall it would incorporate 2 cross plates forming internal baffles, each baffle would have lower and upper galleries allowing for fuel to circulate into each chamber, the tank would have one pie shaped area sitting 30mm lower than the other 3 chambers into which the remaining chambers would cascade fuel into creating a 2.4 litre pool or well.

I spoke to Peter Mc on the phone quickly and his thoughts are that this pool would be deep enough for an internal pump pick up point, therefore an internal pump running 50+ psi would be required, this would not be included in the price of the tank as wouldn't the inductive (Non Float) sender unit.

However the price would include the neck and all associated piping for return and vapours lines etc.

I will meet up with Stephen from Grenenger who I spoke to and see what the final price will be and report back.

Cheers

John

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#35 wally57

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 06:50 PM

Wow this post has certainly taken a left turn from my original question, but it's all good because it is more or less covering what I was looking at anyway. The only thing is I'm building my 2+2 with the LS1 6 speed in it as a cruiser really not for competition so I don't think I'D be comfortable without a spare. I'm going to mount the space saver in the luggage compartment with under a plywood false floor that will also give me somewhere better to put the jack and some tools etc. I want to be able to run twin 3" exhausts down each side with a narrower but deeper tank in the centre which will be possible with the wheel well removed. My engineer seems to think that it is better if the tank I use has already been approved through ADR so I am looking for a tank out oif a late model EFI

#36 wally57

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 06:56 PM

Sorry guys the computer had a hiccup before I finished above (and ran spellcheck). As I said I am actually looking for a tank out of a late model EFI sedan that will fit under the back with about 60ltrs capacity and with space down either side for the exhausts. I am however interested in Johns idea if I cant find what I am looking for as it sounds like a good alternative if things dont work out the way I hope them too.

Wally

#37 nizm0zed

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 07:34 PM

getting a tank out of a late EFI is easier for engineering (not that it should be applicable??) But so long as a custom tank is designed in consultation with an engineer and signed off by said engineer, there is no reason why it wouldnt pass the ADR's
A tank out of a late model car is going to be a pain to fit, more than a custom built one, or even the standard one.

First step would be to read over the ADR's regarding fuel tanks, and more importantly, which rules apply to your car.

#38 Sirpent

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 09:26 PM

Hi Guys,

Alan spot on, I wouldn't have it built without sign off, but I don't think that the complexity of this design will create to many drama;s either, so I will get onto it tomorrow and get a price (Been away 8 days) and at least it may give some pp, an alternative.

The only production tank I can think of that may allow the well to be cut out and act as a tank and wheel well in one would be the old XA-XC tank's, but their size would be a major problem, in order to get the capacity they extend a fair way out around the tyre and I don't think the rails beneath the Z floor would allow it t fit, then again, you neverknow, anyone got one sitting around that could be measured up?

#39 nizm0zed

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 10:29 AM

imo, i wouldn't bother with the XA-XC tank.
They are used when making a drop style tank in Gemini's, and for the last 6? or so years the few people left on the Gemini forum i was part of who decided to do it, ended up having a LOT of trouble finding a tank in good condition.
They all seem to be rusted or splitting along the seams once they are removed and moved around.
Its just the age of the item more than anything.
Would have been a good idea 15 years ago, the XA-XC was easy to find in wreckers then, now they are worth a decent bit of coin.

#40 Sirpent

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 09:56 PM

OK,

Stephen the fabricator got back to me on the price of the wheel well tank, with all required fittings mounts fuel filler and return lines etc, he can do it for $475.00

So I will be going down this track now, I will have mine built and if anyone is interested down the track after the item is finished, I will pass on his details.

Cheers

John




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