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Researching a Le Mans 260Z - Info appreciated


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#41 HS30-H

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 04:56 AM

Brabham,
For a supplier of replica FRP panels like the ones on the '76 Le Mans car, try e-mailing Mori san at KAMEARI ENGINE WORKS, and tell him that you want the 5-piece G-Nose kit, the Works 'Type B' Overfender set, the Works 'Type B' front spoiler, and the Works 'Type B' three piece rear spoiler. He has a fibreglass supplier who makes decent enough quality for a relatively low budget. You could of course go to much more expensive suppliers ( high quality from the likes of Marugen Shokai does not come cheap ) but the end result will pretty much look the same if you spend enough time fettling it and fitting it.

However, isn't your car a 2+2? If so, I would not be on the rear Overfenders and rear spoiler fitting very well.....



#42 HS30-H

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 05:11 AM

About the 'LY' crossflow head:

In fact, the 'LY' was a complete package when built correctly. It wasn't sold as a kit to 'bolt on' to an already existing bottom end. To make use of the semi-hemi combustion chambers, special domed pistons were required with cutouts in the correct places, and these were used with high-strength conrods and a dedicated crank. The crank was made from a higher strength steel than the stock cranks, had narrower rod journals ( due to bigger radius at the ends of the bearing surfaces ) which required the special rods and brgs. This crank had a different flywheel bolt pattern ( more bolts ) so you needed to use the dedicated flywheel too. Lots of other dedicated parts too. The engine block was mounted at a different angle in the body to stock blocks, requiring special engine mounts and a dedicated bellhousing....

Replicating an LY would be a big undertaking. There's a lot there besides just the basic head casting: There's the inlet manifold, tappet cover and bellhousing to be cast too ( exhaust manifold could be fabricated ) but you need to think of the twin rocker shafts, the rockers themselves, the camshaft, cam pulley, cam chain, etc etc etc. Bear in mind too that the 'LY' ( like the FIA 'Safari' head ) was designed to be used with triple throttle bodied injection, and the angle of the inlet manifold on the 'LY' was not really ideal for carbs......

Power? Well, bear in mind why Nissan designed, built and homologated these heads and you have a large part of your answer. It wasn't all about power. Not to be cryptic, but it's a big subject.....

Cheers,
Alan T.




#43 zedrally

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 08:45 AM

About the 'LY' crossflow head:

snip

Power? Well, bear in mind why Nissan designed, built and homologated these heads and you have a large part of your answer. It wasn't all about power. Not to be cryptic, but it's a big subject.....

Cheers,
Alan T.


Wonderful explanation, but you've now opened the can of worms. Can you continue with your reply on the above paragraph and add any information that you're aware of regarding the Giken head, still not sure how it fit's into the big picture ?  Unless the simple answer is that the L series was unable to be developed any more with the lessons from it's development being applied to the RB series..
If the mods think this is off topic (which  it is now), can you split it into a new thread please....

#44 Brabham

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 09:04 AM

Thanks Alan for the info.

Are there any other suppliers of the body kit that you know of? I would have a look at all of them before buying one.

I would need to buy a 2 seater for this project, have to finish my 2+2 first ;D. Perhaps a 260Z 2-seater would be a bit better than a 240Z as the shell is a bit stronger after 1974? However would the body kit fit a 260Z 2-seater (are the external dimensions the same?)

Replicating either an LY or FIA setup appears to be a near impossibility. So a modified and carburetted L28 may be the go here.

Stevo may want to add the info on heads to his sticky if he is watching this.

Thanks for all the info - very interesting

#45 Brabham

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 02:01 PM

Does Marugen Shokei have a website? I could not find one. I will also send an email to Mori San - thanks for this contact. Cheers

#46 HS30-H

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 09:28 PM

Does Marugen Shokei have a website? I could not find one.


Marugen Shokai's main page:

http://home.att.ne.j...Z/ZG/ZGmain.htm

Note that he doesn't make or sell the 'Type B' Overfenders and/or spoilers. The best replicas of the OEM G-Nose in the business though.....

Alternative suppliers of replica works 'Type B' parts include the likes of 'RS Start' and 'City Auto'. Mike pointed out 'Arita Speed' before, and they do make their own replicas of the works parts, as well as all sorts of other derivatives.

However, you may find that several retailers buy from the same manufacturer - and the manufacturer does not sell direct to the public. That's probably a good thing, as - in my experience - most FRP moulders are as mad as march hares. Must be the fumes...... 

#47 HS30-H

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 10:04 PM

Wonderful explanation, but you've now opened the can of worms. Can you continue with your reply on the above paragraph and add any information that you're aware of regarding the Giken head, still not sure how it fit's into the big picture ?  Unless the simple answer is that the L series was unable to be developed any more with the lessons from it's development being applied to the RB series..
If the mods think this is off topic (which  it is now), can you split it into a new thread please....


I don't really want to get drawn into a discussion of the merits and/or drawbacks of the OSG TC24. I've talked about my ( limited ) personal experience of it on other forums, and it always seems to end up with some bright sparks quoting spurious figures for the opposition, talking up the power that can be got from a modified 'stock' head, and just generally taking the piss out of it. Depressing.

But I think - for a small private engineering firm - it was a really brave, clever and interesting project, and they got a good bit of publicity out of it ( still do! ). However, it was built too late in my opinion. If they had designed and built it ten years earlier it might have had a chance to be better received, further developed and produced in greater quantity ( because demand would have been greater ). It was also never properly homologated, so you can't use it on an early car in FIA sanctioned events, as Mike has already pointed out. So it's an interesting side bar to Nissan L-Gata engine history and aftermarket tuning, but suffers from unicorn syndrome. 

About Nissan's FIA race heads ( the 'Safari' and the 'LY' ): Like I said, I'd prefer not to be drawn into a discussion / comparison that's just about quoted power and torque figures. Soon as you start getting into such a discussion, people start quoting figures from the likes of BRE, BSR, Rebello, Wako, Kameari and/or their own pet tuner, and it all means very little ( especially when the "BRE taught Nissan how to build race engines..." crowd walk through the door ). However, as I kind of hinted at before, such heads were not designed, built and then homologated solely with higher power figures in mind. These parts were built with endurance racing in mind, as well as Nissan's target of winning the East African Safari Rally, Monte Carlo Rallye and RAC Rally. On an event such as the old Safari, hand grenade buzz bomb engines that give high power on a dyno and had lives timed in hours were no use to anybody. Quite often crews would be forced to use local fuel with low octane ratings, and who knows what else in it, for an event covering thousands of miles with limits in servicing. These FIA heads were conceived as being useful in such circumstances, but such development was cut short by the 'Oil Shock', when racing took such a hard hit in Japan. Nissan also won the Safari in '71 ( quite apart from the success of previous years ) with the Z, proving that the 'normal' L-Gata could do the job anyway ( although it was hardly a stock engine in the car ), and did it again in '73. 

So the FIA heads were not just about power figures. They were about giving high revs, stable and even temps, and decent power for hours on end, and not just in 'ideal' conditions. They can and will give high power, when built with that target in mind.


Cheers,
Alan T. 

#48 NZeder

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 10:44 AM

I was at the track in the weekend so missed some of these posts as they came through.

First thank you Alan for informing of more "type B" flare vendors and for the info on the Safari and LY and their purpose. I am interested in the FIA heads for the reason you state - changes to the design for endurance/improved cooling. The L-Gata engines really are impressive given the non cross-flow of the stock heads, these can still produce good strong HP. It is the "LY" as a package that is interesting - different crank, rods, pistons, head, intake and exhaust setups all different - and like so many other race or work engines it is the whole package that makes up the engine and it performance/endurance

Reading back there was a question about how much a LY head would be and if anyone had seen one on a Japanese Auction site. Well I have never seen a LY head listed but I have seen a LY crank and it was in the order of $4000 for a second hand crank that needed some bearing work. So that should give you an idea on what the cost of a LY package will end up coming in at - I would say think BDA cost then some or in the order of a genuine Abarth 2000/Simca DOHC engine and you would be close (ie 38,000 EU for the Abarth) and that is if you can find someone who want to sell a LY.

I am sure Alan will correct me but most LY that are in existence are either in cars Nissan ownership or private collectors who would not part with them for any amount of money.

Many seem to forget these are Japanese cars and they were raced in Japan, it was just during the period (1970's) little was known about the domestic racing series in Japan (which ran under JAF rules which is the FIA approved motorsport association for Japan, which is unlike SCCA or IMSA) which is a shame as the cars would have raced under a FIA standard (ie Appendix J) of the day. It is always the other series that seem to get the interest when building replicas ie BRE (SCCA) etc.

For the reading I have done one of the issues with the with the S30 is the class/group in which it must run. FYI see here for FIA Appendix J info

  • Group 1: series-production touring cars (5,000)
  • Group 2: touring cars (1,000)
  • Group 3: grand touring cars (1000)
  • Group 4: sports cars (500)
  • Group 5: special touring cars
  • Group 6: prototype-sports cars

Now it would be nice if the S30 could run under group 1 but it can't as the rules state for 2+2 model as does group 2. The 260z/280z 2+2 was FIA approved for group 1 but the 2 seater version can't run under group 1 or 2 as they don't fit the 4 seats requirement.

So that put the 240z in Group 3 and 4 and it therefore completes against much more exotic cars with more technology or larger engines. The zed does do a good job in this group but like the Le Mann 260z - it was really out classed by these exotics and as stated was lucky to even make the start line.

The zed was successful in the US which ran under different rules and those mods are hard to get past a FIA body ie CAMS 

So this puts the zed into Group 3 in stock form (see mod permitted in Group 1 as the same applies to Group 3) and it is usually handicapped vs other models that were in group 3 also (one example is a 427 Camaro which was group 3 the 350 Camaro was group 1, another example is the 7000cc Vette of the same period and in long high HP tracks a stock zed will never bet that)

#49 Brabham

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:04 PM

More good info thanks Alan and N Zeder. Alan could I please get the website for city auto? I found the website for RS Start. I am now wishing my Japanese was a whole lot better as the google translator offers questionable interpretations. Thanks for the suppliers, I will give Marugen Shokei a miss as not sure if their G-nose will fit in with the front spoiler and overfenders from other manufacturers. That leaves me with Arita, potentially City Auto, Kameari and RS Start so that is pretty good. Will get in touch with all these guys, hopefully can get a complete set from one of them. I will also need a G-nose bonnet hinge set too will I not? Do they come with torsion bars or do I use the torsion bars from an existing set of normal hinges?

On the wheels Alan, where would I be likely to source a set and how many were produced? Also would it be advisable to use them on a track now or are they likely to fall apart? Cheers. :)

#50 Zedman240®

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 08:03 PM

When you fit a Gnose, you can actually modify the original hinges to work with the new front. If you have a glass bonnet, I wouldn't install the springs...

#51 HS30-H

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:07 PM

Alan could I please get the website for city auto?

I will also need a G-nose bonnet hinge set too will I not? Do they come with torsion bars or do I use the torsion bars from an existing set of normal hinges?

On the wheels Alan, where would I be likely to source a set and how many were produced? Also would it be advisable to use them on a track now or are they likely to fall apart? Cheers. :)


Actually, I don't think City Auto have a website. If they do, then I don't know it. However, you can call them on 02768 85366 ( or better, fax them on 02768 87104 ). City Auto sell their own - admittedly slightly basic - G-Nose hinge set, but Bad Dog Parts in the USA make their own versions too. You can get away with using the stock short nose torsion bars and bonnet prop, although the factory ZG parts were different.

I know I've recommended Kameari Engine Works to you before, but I'm going to do it again. Your shopping around will probably mean you look like a 'window shopper' to all but the one supplier you choose. I know it's your right as a consumer to shop around and get the best deal you can, but there are any number of variables and if you just choose the cheapest quote you might not feel it was the best choice in the long run. My advice - again - is to trust Kameari. They will do a good job for you.

You would be most likely to find a set of the correct works K.S. 4-spoke wheels on Yahoo Japan auctions from time to time. K's Historic sometimes sell the odd set that they come across, but they are 'reassuringly' expensive. There was a very short run of replicas made a few years back ( aluminium rather than magnesium ) but they only made one size and they too are hard to come across and very expensive. Prices? No comment! I know what I paid for mine, and it still hurts.....

I would not run an original set on the track, except perhaps for gentle 'demo' / show work, as they were 'lifed' by the factory and date stamped accordingly. When you get one of these wheels in your hands you can see why they were 'lifed' and basically scrapped when they had only done a couple of events. I would go for more recently manufactured wheels if I were you.

   

#52 Brabham

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 11:19 AM

Thanks Alan,

more great advice. :) Do you know of any wheel manufacturers that make a similar looking wheel to the works wheel? Dragway here in Australia made a four spoke that looks similar from a distance, but again it is a lot narrower at around 7 inches and possibly only one size. Will take your good advice on the wheels and steer clear of the works wheels for track work and try to find something that looks similar.

Another alternative would be to get a set of originals and take them to dragway to get copies made with additional reinforcement to make them last a lifetime, using possibly alloy rather than magnesium. I know that this has been done for Porsche 917 wheels by dragway, so they may be willing to do it for these wheels.

Are you able to PM me a rough guide on what I should pay for the works wheels, as these are one of the most essential items for the build, there are other things I can live without but a decent replica of the wheels is a must have. :)

What hinge set would you recommend I use with the Kameari G-nose? Do they supply their own or would Bad Dog be preferable?

Thanks for your help, there are few people with the level of knowledge you have in this area.

Cheers. :)

#53 dat2kman

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:38 PM

was in Japan just before the quake, got decent pics of the rims and the LY engined car
just have to work out how to shrinky dink them from 460kb to 350kb and post up
advice from Nissan is to NOT use the rims, they are on the car for display purpose only.
Lots of other NICE old cars also got pics of - Zama DNA Collection Hall !

#54 zedrally

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:08 PM

Use http://www.irfanview.com/ (freeware) to shrink them....


#55 NZeder

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:26 PM

Use http://www.irfanview.com/ (freeware) to shrink them....

If you use M$ Windows there is a free power tool that gives you a right click option "Resize Pictures" - then options are resize original, make copies and most common sizes as choices it is too easy :D

So resize those pics - post up and let us enjoy Nissan goodness. Now back on topic :)

#56 Sirpent

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:36 PM

Guys

I now use this site for re-sizing, very simple and quick

http://www.webresizer.com/resizer/

#57 HS30-H

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:12 PM

Do you know of any wheel manufacturers that make a similar looking wheel to the works wheel?

Are you able to PM me a rough guide on what I should pay for the works wheels, as these are one of the most essential items for the build, there are other things I can live without but a decent replica of the wheels is a must have. :)

What hinge set would you recommend I use with the Kameari G-nose? Do they supply their own or would Bad Dog be preferable?


They were *similar* to several designs, including the ARE 'Libre' and the Central 20 / Chowini 'Z Sport' wheel. There was an early GOTTI design that was very similar ( so much so that some Japanese fans nicknamed the works KS 4-spokes as "Gottis" - even though they were nothing to do with Gotti ) but this was a 2 or 3-piece design with a cast centre and spun rim sections. Actually, getting a similar centre piece cast would perhaps be a cheaper and more viable plan, as you could then use readliy available spun rims. Casting the whole things  - in two sizes - would cost a fortune. I've been involved in such a project in the past, and it cost a bomb believe me......

I have a friend here in the UK who is selling an NOS pair of genuine factory ZG bonnet hinges, so I shall PM you his e-mail address.

Cheers,
Alan T.
 

#58 FLEXZED

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:25 PM

hey brabham

here is a set of libre on ebay


http://cgi.ebay.com....=item35b0fddbcd

Loui

#59 Brabham

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:20 PM

Thanks guys.

Alan do you have a pic of the Central 20's or the Gotti's and do you know of the dimensions?

Cheers Loui saw the Libre's but not quite as good looking as the works wheels. Here is a picture of the dragways I have been talking about, pretty close and in fact when I first saw the works wheels I thought they might be a variant of these. Have only seen them in 14" not 15" and only around 7" wide.

I wonder if any Datsun people would be interested in re-runs of the wheels. However they would be massively expensive to do so I am guessing probably not. The dragways look very nice, have seen them on one or two zeds and awesome period look. Enjoy.

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#60 HS30-H

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:10 PM

I think the Gotti centres are the closest. You might be able to find some if you search in Europe?

Posted ImagePosted Image

The Central 20 'Z Sport' was a one-piece cast aluminium design:

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