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Sirpent

Gordon Dobie

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Great stuff Jason

 

I had the same frustration over eligibility with my Sc 240z 10 years ago and had numerous heated exchenges with the VHRR eligibility officer (who happened to race an Sc MGB with Webers !) over front spoilers, triple 44 Minkunis, CDi ignition and oil coolers ...............even my Datsun competion steering wheel for Cripes sake!! which I proved was in the parts catalogue !

 

The bazaar thing is :

Sb Roadster - oil cooler permited , electronic ignition - permited - Mikuni's permitted 

 

Sc 240Z- Mikuni's - not permitted, electronic ignition - not permitted, oil cooler - not permitted ...........I was asked to proved that these were factory options available from the dealers so I handed over a copy of a Datsun competion parts brochure.............only to be told that it did not have a dealer stamp and a date on it so I was "out of luck" dispite a price list in Aussie dollars !!!.

 

In the finish they wore my down until I gave up and I sold the 240z to John Ingham who ran it in a few events (John had the red/white/blue Sb 2000 and sold that to Tom Cantwell that now languishes in Lou Mondello's shop)

 

keep up the fight !

 

cheers

 

Alan

 

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My father and I have been involved with Historic Racing in NSW for quite a few years on the scrutineering side of things.  I have seen the same kind of frustration

with regards to the Mazda RX2's in Group N.  Wayne Rogerson, who actually raced the little buggers back in the early 70's, had a black coupe that used to run top 5

at Eastern Creek before he wrote off the body.  He run up against the same kind of pig headedness in his category in the early days (the V8's didn't want to see a Jap

car competing with them up the front.)

 

One of the big problems we both agree with is that fuel injected cars in Group SC have a distinct advantage.  If running a carby car, you are stuck with the original manifold

and a bigger carby.  If you have fuel injection, you can install the latest and greatest programmable system.  You have virtually ended up with a class where if there are about

8 Porsche's, they take the first 8 places with the Morgans, TVRs and Zeds about half a lap behind.

 

Brad

 

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GTI-Z, surely you do not mean to say that the Porkers with their fancy fule injection are running non standard as produced by the porker factory in Germany??

In my Group Sc 280z ( USA Spec) I have to and am running the stock fuel injection setup and ecu, it is just that i am telling the ecu certain things by way of variable resistors in the signals going to the ecu, to make the ecu do what I want it to do, a bit like changing the air and fuel jets on a Weber, or, changing the SU neddle on a SUHitachi carb on a 240/260Z!

 

The Mazda RX2's got their wish some time ago, ie Bridgeporting, they also are safety conciuos in the whole Group N filed, and allow the cars to run a better brake packge, diam must stay the same, but vented and four piston cals is fine, not like Group S, you must run stock as supplied/produced by factory!!

 

The fuel injected guys in Sc do not have an advantage, they cannot ( or shouldn't be) use the latest and greatest ecu's throttle bodies, etc, as we are to use the stock throttle body ( 280z is a stock ID of 48mm)  the Porkers have an advantage in that they have two throttle bodies of some 45 mm diam,

where as the Alfa GTV can use twin anythings ( Dellorto/Weber in anysize they like, ie up to 48mm, they cant get the 55mm ones to suck air enuf, oh gee !!)

 

I really am amazed I can get my Zed to run as well as it does in Sc, it has drawbacks, and I have to drive around these on track, it is fun though, but, the Datsun Sports 2000 is like a go kart on steroids compared to the 280Z!

James Fletts 260 walks away from me at Sandown, and Eastern Creek, but I get him at Bathurst!

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dat2kman,

 

Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of the fuel injection issue.  I'm just disappointed that the class has turned into a Porsche cakewalk most of the time.

 

Brad

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Hi all,

 

Recieved another PM from Gordon Dobie this evening, he was online for a short time, he wrote as follows..........

 

Hi Sirpent

 

Yes it is me, not "some wize arse playing a joke". I have noticed a large number of questions re: Z engine mods and on the forum page. The answers to a lot of these questions can be found on the Tech page of my website at  <www.datperform.com>. Although I am retired I am still able to provide  Z owners with any information  that may be helpful.

 

Gordon Dobie

 

In light of what Gordon posted and assuming there must be a number of members that may be asking questions of him via PM, I think it may be a good idea if we set up a page for Gordon where only questions can be posted, not general chatter where Gordon may have a chance to read them and respond, this way the questions posed which may be of interest to many members and the responses which Im sure would be equally as interesting can be shared by all.

 

Do I see a show of hands or +1's to this and do the mods feel it would be appropriate?

 

Cheers

 

John

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Do I see a show of hands or +1's to this and do the mods feel it would be appropriate?

+1

But where do we draw the line getting info from the tech guys?

There are a few experts about...... Maybe a whole new section dedicated.

But there may be alot of dumb questions like where can I get a RWC or bumper  :P

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+1

But where do we draw the line getting info from the tech guys?

There are a few experts about...... Maybe a whole new section dedicated.

But there may be alot of dumb questions like where can I get a RWC or bumper  :P

 

I see your point and agree with you Simon, Peter Mac, David, Dimitri, and yes even Lurch all have some fantastic input and invaluable info, so maybe a tech page dedicated to some of the more qualified crew, and if I missed anyone I apologise.

 

I guess what I was originally getting at was that Gordon apart from his technical nous also has a historical perspective and with the right questions I bet it would make for some great reading and also save it in a way for posterity, not that we are expecting Gordon to disappear any time soon don't get me wrong.

 

Food for thought anyhow.

 

Cheers

 

John

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+1, Think it would be a great idea John.  Often people PM for info but then it almost remains in isolation and opportunity to resource a wider audience with common (or uncommon) information would be awesome.

Rev.

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Thanks Rev,

 

I know its a hard and somewhat greay area, but i think we honestly do need a tech corner, and I would probably say that the best way to run it would be that until each tech topic was closed, another one couldnt be posted, that way there would be continuity to the thread.

 

But this seems to get more complex as we discuss it, so Im bowing out from this point and we can open the floor for comments from the forum.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

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maybe just more stickies under different categories, with a tagline of certified information and a different highlighted background, green or something like that??

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Preserving historical info and making it widely available is an excellent idea, as I am not a club member though thats enough from me.

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I personally wood love to talk to Gordon about the z. Even better wood love to have a beer with him and talk about zeds some one should organise this as a talk night with Gordon would be a grate night

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Pete,

 

Im trying to arrange just that as you write, just waiting for him to get back to me.

 

Cheers

 

John

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Really?

I like him cos he's a sadistic, smarty pants, cynical, deeply deeply troubled man  :P

 

 

Simon yes, yes, yes and no longer after this morning  ;)

 

hahah sounds like you are talking about lurch.... that's why i like him

 

Thanks Pete, but I dont compare to the great one !

 

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There seems to be some confusion as to what was allowed under the group D improved production rule in place during the 1960s and 70s. The eligible cars were listed in the CAMS manual and the allowable modifications were limited. The bore could be increased by 1.5 mm providing the capacity increase did not take the car out of it's original class ie under 2000cc, under 3000cc. Increase in stroke was not allowed. A number of cars ran in NSW with oversize engines which were bored and stroked. This practice was tolerated in NSW but the cars were only legal under the rules layed down by CAMS if they ran in group A (unlimited sports car) category. The claims of 240 plus bhp out of a U20 engine refer to an engine which was bored and stroked to 2.4 litres and in any case the claim is grossly exaggerated. When I took the factory 2000 to Warwick Farm in the late 60s it was significantly faster than the illegal NSW cars in spite of having 163bhp. This figure was measured on the engine dyno used by the majority of Melbourne based engine builders. But if a bit of bullshit is repeated often enough it becomes folk law and people actually start to believe it and I am afraid that is what has happened in a lot of cases in historic racing categories.

Edited by Gordon Dobie

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the current rules for Australian production Sports cars - Historics ie Group S are quite restrictive, ( very !)  when it comes to the so called mods allowed for our Zeds, however, if you have a Porsche, a MGB, a Alfa, a Austin healey, a MG Midget,  a Morgan, a DeTomaso or a Shelby Mustang, you are allowed certain freedoms in rim widths, tyre sizes, carurettors, ignition radiators, brakes etc, because, "apparently" it was able to be proven that these cars were "sold" by the dealerships somwhere in Upper Kumbucta West in Timbuctoo, with siad goodies fitted.When it comes to the current Group S  Zed fraternity, and there have been a few, and yes we have tried, it is "No dice, you have to run as stock as the factory made them" even though the dealers sold a new car, and the buyer could then trot next door into the dealers spare parts section, and walk out with everything in the Competition parts catalogue, It sucks bigtime.I am giving up racing my Group Sc 280Z, and turning it into a Standard Late Classsic tarmac rally car, at least there their is sensibility in brake freedoms, the rest of the car is to remain stock.The other side of the coin, is this, My other car is the very well known famour Mingay/Carter Datsun Sports 2000, it was then and is still now the fastes and highest horsepowered ( 245hp at 7500 and 186 ft/lb) Datsun U20 engined produstion Based Sports Car in Australai and the world, it has continous race history since May 14th 1968, and is today as it was back in the late 1960's. It was built with as much parts from the Comp Catalogues as the DRT cars were.CAMS have said, that as the car is genuine, with history, it as a production based sports car, is to race in with the non historic production sports cars  - Group S -, - the kicker is prod BASED, mine has wider rims and four piston front brakes, that is all, compared to the Datsun Race Team 2000 sports and curren spec Group S elegible  Datsun Sports 2000's, of which there are three that run from time to time.At VHRR Phillip Island Classic meeting 2010, they put me in with some 48 pre 1970 Prod Sports cars, Shelby Mustangs, Corvette Stingrays, Morgan V8's Healey 3000's,  MGB with non stock carbs and alloy panels etc, and Alfa's etc, What does muggins here do, He wins all four races, and promptly the oh so very pucka "Group British" are screaming blue bloody murder, at the fact that a genuine Historic sports car, has won all their  "Historic"races and taken their bits of tin and plastic and upset their cherished pointscores.Go figure, none of the Group S so called cars are genuine historic with a true history, but oh no, thet protest, and the race for the 'Brroklands Victorian Tourist Trophy, event 42 on the card, won by me, is not awarded the perpetual prize, the trophy and the BLOODY WONDERFULL ROLLAWAY TOOL BOX AND CABINET WITH JACK BRABHAMS PICTURE ALL OVER IT !I am a glutton for puishment, so i entered again for 2011, and what do the pucka VHRR do, they now stick me in with the later more modern post 1970 prod sports class,  ohwell now I have to contend with the 2.7/3.0 Porkers Detomasos, BMW3.0 CSL's, Alfa GTV's and yes the might Zed cars, all in a fairly stockish U20 engined little Datsun Sports 2000

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But if a bit of bullshit is repeated often enough it becomes folk law and people actually start to believe it and I am afraid that is what has happened in a lot of cases in historic racing categories.

 

Ain't that the truth.. as Joseph Goebbels once said "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

 

By the way looks like your book arrived at work today, I was working from home so haven't got it in hand yet, but look forward to the read.

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Ain't that the truth.. as Joseph Goebbels once said "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

 

Not so much lies, but plain old mistakes and half-truths get repeated until they are gospel. Like...

 

 

 

...so two weeks ago I am in Japan visting Nismo and get an invite to the Zama storage wharehouse, and what do I see, and get info on but these tow, along with a genuine Z432.

First is a SCCN white Z fitted with a LY28

LY??? It is a L bottom end with a crossflow Y head fited, see pics.

The other thing is what grabbed my goolies, and on asking the head of nismo, he confirmed that Nissan supplied/sold to the Japanese Highway Patrol/Police Department some 30 of these police cars, fitted with ZG nose, flares wider rims and tyres, four piston brakes and the 432 engine 9 de-tuned)

These were sold to the Jap Popo to catch all the naughty boys on the Wangan's ( expressways) late at night.

 

No such thing as a Japanese police car with ZG style body and 432 (S20) engine, let alone "de-tuned".

 

Nissan supplied just THREE (3!) PS30 Fairlady Z432s to the Kanagawa Highway Patrol. Their engines were completely stock. They were fitted with the 432's stock S12 two piston, unventilated, front disc brakes.

 

Nissan also supplied a few Fairlady 240ZGs to the Japanese police, but they too were mechanically stock - even down to the stock wheels and hubcaps. The police workshops modified them with police-related equipment (lights, radio, PA system, safety equipment etc) but they were mechanically stock. Nissan have the last survivor of these cars preserved in their Heritage Collection at Zama.

 

The various Japanese regional police forces also used L20A-engined Fairlady Z-Ls and Fairlady Z-L 2/2 as highway patrol vehicles on the Expressway network.

 

So there was no combination of a ZG-bodied and S20 or LY-engined Japanese police car, but there were ZG-bodied police cars and S20-engined police cars. It doesn't take much to get it all mixed up... 

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More than one Heenan & Froude engine dyno getting around?

Few in NSW, and still being used, up until a few years back.

I recall Lou being quite chuffed at 232 HP from a U20, fitted to a Prod Sports 2000 some 8 years back

My car ran rings around it when we got to play together, not long after. But, yes, its all bullshit!

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Great stuff Jason

 

I had the same frustration over eligibility with my Sc 240z 10 years ago and had numerous heated exchenges with the VHRR eligibility officer (who happened to race an Sc MGB with Webers !) over front spoilers, triple 44 Minkunis, CDi ignition and oil coolers ...............even my Datsun competion steering wheel for Cripes sake!! which I proved was in the parts catalogue !

 

The bazaar thing is :

Sb Roadster - oil cooler permited , electronic ignition - permited - Mikuni's permitted

 

Sc 240Z- Mikuni's - not permitted, electronic ignition - not permitted, oil cooler - not permitted ...........I was asked to proved that these were factory options available from the dealers so I handed over a copy of a Datsun competion parts brochure.............only to be told that it did not have a dealer stamp and a date on it so I was "out of luck" dispite a price list in Aussie dollars !!!.

 

In the finish they wore my down until I gave up and I sold the 240z to John Ingham who ran it in a few events (John had the red/white/blue Sb 2000 and sold that to Tom Cantwell that now languishes in Lou Mondello's shop)

 

keep up the fight !

 

cheers

 

Alan

Alan / Jason if all you need is date stamp from Australian dealer with date surely the Catalog I scanned here would suffice?

 

http://www.viczcar.com/forum/topic/13740-datsun-240z-260z-280z-sports-option-parts-catalog/?do=findComment&comment=162568

Screenshot_20171220-094050.png

Screen Shot 2017-12-20 at 10.12.01 PM.jpg

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