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#1 MaygZ

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 02:32 PM

G'day.  does anyone have an air swage for sale?  I found a manual one on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com....=item3f007ed67d

But I'm too lazy to use it!!

#2 Lurch ™

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 02:36 PM

What do you need one of them for?

#3 MaygZ

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 02:39 PM

I'll be cutting the bottoms out of my door skins and want to overlap the welds.  Prob use the same techniques on the bottoms of the front guards, and under the battery tray etc

#4 FLEXZED

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 03:41 PM

I'll be cutting the bottoms out of my door skins and want to overlap the welds.  Prob use the same techniques on the bottoms of the front guards, and under the battery tray etc


Mate i wouldnt be doing that, problem is if you get any water between the 2 panels it will rust up in no time, what i would recommend is that you make up your replacement peice and then scribe around it onto the existing peice and then cut it out and mig weld it in with your new BOC 190

Loui


#5 herrods

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 04:50 PM

oldzman makes a good point, and even the moisture in the air is enough to start it off.

need to be very careful with welding, the bits you cant get to can be the source of the rust as well.

#6 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 12:56 PM

'OVERLAP"?????? uh-uh,
big no no, only for dodgy panel repairs, where welding skills are next to none.......
I have seen some dodgey shite and overlapping panels, with tekscrews and urethane........
small tack welds hold a butt join together, then fill in the gaps, grind, beat seal with epoxy etch primer and finish....


#7 zzzzed

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 01:51 PM

in tafe we lap joined a bottom section of a door skin with panel bond. wich is ok because the glue seals it.
after we finished we took to it with a brickys hammer to try brake it but with no success
its not so dodgey it is the way new cars are being built these days.
Saying that i prefer the old method


#8 MaygZ

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 06:39 PM

Gents,

I'm not an expert, but I have been told by one or two who would be regarded, even in this crowd, as being such, that the proper way to join panel or patches into panels is by recessingthe panel and overlapping the join.  This improves joint strength and reduces grinding that causes heat and reduces panel stregth.

Care must be taken to ensure that water running down the inside of the panel, and it does run down them all, should not run into the recess for obvious reasons.  A swage tool recesses about 10mm (1/2 ") so both the patch and the weld can sit below or level with the other panel.

See attached diagram.  (I'm not a graphic designer either!)

'A' is the method some of you are professing as ideal.

'B' is the method that I have been taught.  The weld could then even be replaced with a solder (I think) further reducing heat.  If one were able, both sides of the join could be welded.  The inside (the right side of the line) can be sealed with a suitable joint sealer. 

Note:  before anyone says "You shouldn't leave such a big gap" I have intentionally drawn the swage too big, otherwise it would look like a straight line with a little bump in the middle - That reminds me of someone.  ::)

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#9 FLEXZED

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 06:45 PM

thats a HUGE gap ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

#10 MaygZ

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 06:47 PM

Thanks Loui!!

#11 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:50 PM

joint sealer will help seeal the lapping piece, for a few years or so, as the seam seal in all cars eventualy crackes or lets moitsture in.
not always the seam sealer, as the weld on your welded face can easily have a small crack through it and you wouldnt know, then it will let moistur in behind the sealer, and not readilly let it out, but if butt joined does have some hope of escaping, We quiet often see craks in welds that look perfect, it is not uncommon and without any garentee that youve sealed it from at least one side, well what am i saying, its steel and it will rust provided the conditions are right regardless, all we can do istry our best to not let those conditions occur.

I have regular contact with guys in the trade and ones whom charge out 50k + for a metal only resto's they dont use a swaged lap anywhere except on 1 piece panels they cannot fit into standard sheet widths oe 1200 or 1500mm, ie some larger quarter or bonnet panels, in which after the lap they grind out ther re-inforcement swage anyhow.

but each to their own, there is no 1 right way to do anything now is there???
all methods have their own merits and flaws.....

nat0

#12 1600dave

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:45 PM

One problem with the "overlap" method is that if you do get any distortion while welding / grinding, it makes it harder to panel-beat is straight again due to the double-thickness.

My preferred method (admittedly I'm no professional) is to get the patch butted up absolutely spot-on and "fuse" the two pieces together using oxy and as little filler rod as possible. If it does distort a little, knock it straight as you go, doing only a small seciotn (an inch or so) in one place at a time to reduce heat buildup. It's taken me a while to get good enough at welding to be able to do this on large flat panels (like the bottoms of doors), I guess the "overlap" technique would help for less-skilled welders.

But having said all that, the best method is probably the one you are most comfortable with  ;)

#13 MaygZ

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 02:19 PM

I guess the "overlap" technique would help for less-skilled welders.


That's me  ;D

So as none of your blokes would ever use a swage to create the 'overlap' joint, you must have them laying around the shed, holding doors open etc, just wanting to give them away to some stupid schmuck.  So where are they??  ;)

#14 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 01:00 PM

google henrob welders. its a low pressure oxy accetylene, stuff all heat due to much smaller flame size achieveable, used by many older type resto guys here, but only small minority to all out there..

never tried one, but i am eager to
Nat0

#15 1600dave

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:29 PM

That's what I use - absolutely brilliant bit of gear  :)

With the right preparation, you can pretty much just fuse the two panels together with very little (or no) filler rod. This makes it easy to panelbeat the joint straight, you don't need much grinding of the weld, and the weld stays nice and soft so its very malleable (unlike MIG which seems to produce a very hard, almost "brittle" weld).

Expensive though  :(

And MaygZ, the only thing I have lying round is my old CIG Colt oxy set, haven't touched it since I got the Henrob.




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