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260z 2+2 suspension replacement....


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#21 Gareth. J.

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:05 PM

There's complete coil overs (bolt on modification, strut, shock and all) then there's coil over sleeve kit like Shan is fitting, the latter requires welding and cutting which would need to be passed by an engineer, I would think. The bolt in complete coil over set up would already pass an engineer I imagine and perhaps a reason for the extra cost. Maybe I'm wrong... Could be worth some more research.  ;)

The K-mac camber castor strut tops are a bolt on mod that replaces 240/260 strut tops, these would have to be ok but I never checked when I was looking at them.

#22 Shan

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:15 PM

Hmmmm...

Will call the engineer I have details for next week and suss it out.....see what is involved "exactly" with suspension approval.  He worked on Zeds previously, so should be able to set me straight fast enough.

That being said - if whole strut is painted and looking schmick with new springs, inserts etc etc - not sure how anyone is supposed to tell whether it is a sleave kit or a new coilover manufactured "package".  :-\



#23 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:48 AM

leave the struts @ full length as i have, just shim up above the insert, which keeps your strut length in droop and bump the same, and no-one can pic it, except the fact the adjusters up the top on my koni yellows from a z31....... snug as a bug in rug. highly recommended as it removes the need for sectioning, as sectioning without appropriate sized bump stops allows wheels to hit under the wheel well where the bump height is not altered if you do as above......
just a thought & yes I have extensive photos to show........
just a thought.
Nat0

#24 Shan

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 01:06 PM

Shim above the insert?  Hmmm...

Sent you a PM. 

#25 KatoKid

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 01:14 PM

Hmmmm....please share.

#26 Gareth. J.

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:24 PM

I've done the same as natO, 30mm shim/spacer above the insert. This keeps the much shorter coil over springs captive at full droop.

#27 Shan

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 06:14 PM

OK.  Been doing further research on this. 

All I can say is it gets VERY complicated the more I dig into it (either that or the people I speak to are making it complicated for me).
Guys at TopPerformance really know their stuff - my head was spinning after a chat with one of the guys there.  Good advice though.
NatO was also awesome with his assistance - very helpful.

Like NatO mentions above, he left the strut housing alone (no sectioning) and used shims (like spacers/washers) to ensure the smaller Koni strut insert (shock absorber) fitted into the longer strut housing/tube without moving around.  So essentially, with the use of cleverley made spacers, he made the shorter Koni inserts fit into the longer strut tube.
Plus point is no structural changes were needed.  Aside from fabricating the spacers (which he had made properly), nothing needs to be changed.
Only negative point is the strut insert "travel" is compromised - if only a fraction.  Not an issue in most circumstances.

However - if you plan to go LOW - you will likely need every bit of travel the the strut insert (shock absorber) can provide.  In these cases sectioning is necessary.  Sectioning has been explained before, but essentially this means you chop a section out of strut tube/housing. i.e cutting in the middle of the strut housing - taking a section out, then welding it back together to make it shorter. Thereby making the strut housing shorter to suit the new shorter strut insert (i.e shock absorber) you are putting onto the car.  Bump stops are also recommended if going low.  For those who do not know - these are basically a donut which slides down the shaft of the strut insert (shock absorber) to stop it from bottoming out.  So if you hit a heavy bump, your shock absorber (strut insert) contracts and hits the bump stop (instead of damaging itself).  Like a doorstop in your house prevents you from damaging walls if you open a door too far.  Same concept.

Now I found a guy willing to provide a RWC with the coilovers (mate of a mate etc), so my options have changed.  I was going to follow NatO's advice and get the car on the road first - chop later.  There was going to be a bit of work putting suspension back on the car - only to have to take it off again, but it was a BETTER option than getting an engineer.

For the record - it will cost at least $250 for an engineer to "start" a file on your car with some photos and info in it.  After that - there are more costs.  I reckon it would end up costing anywhere up to $1000 to get just the suspension engineered - nothing else.  "If" you decided to section and go the "official" route for RWC - it will cost.

NatO's suggestion was a good one if you were concerned about the RWC.  You can get the strut inserts you want, with the springs you want and still get the RWC.  If you found later you did need more suspension travel - then section the strut with no-one being the wiser.

There are a LOT of other things to consider though.  If you are going low and changing tyre offsets - there are things like camber and scrub radius to consider.  It can all get VERY complicated.  Do your research and make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. 

If you are going for a coilover insert from Otomoto, you also need to carefully consider what you are doing, where you are going to weld the coilover sleave on the strut, what spring rates (spring strength) you are getting.  This is not just for the ride/feel, but the spring needs to suit the shock absorber/strut you have purchased.

For those who want to know - this is what I reckon I have settled on:
- Koni Yellow (for external adjustment)
- Sectioned struts
- Otomoto coilover with 5KG springs (was thinking 4KG, but Koni yellow more suited to a 5KG).
- Possibly Otomoto camber plates to suit (to assist with handling and tyre wear).

Still have a lot of research to do though...

Hope this helps some of you other suspension rookies.







#28 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 05:57 PM

shan i like your metaphore "Like a doorstop in your house prevents you from damaging walls if you open a door too far.  Same concept." very good that its dumbed down for easy refernce, but it would be so you dont damage the door handle ie the insert not the strut tube ie the wall, lol

I hope you find your way soon, nothing sucks more in wasting time then ending up going the way you were or should have in the first place,
my suggestions are only to assit making detrimental changes that are not easily reversed, hence my spacer suggestions and sale, which by all means feel free to re-sell to somone not interested in cutting & shutting the tubes.

feel free to bounce ideas off me, and post some of the pics i sent previously.
im flat knacker at work and getting my skyline back on the road at present to piss it off so i can be a 1 car minded man, for once.
cheers nat0

#29 Shan

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:05 AM

Grrrrr.....suspension stuff is getting to me.....

I have the HSD kit from Otomoto and I am currently trying to fit it to the strut housing.
ONE of the provided sleeves slides over perfectly.
The other THREE do not.  Seems the are ALL fractionally different measurements.  Not good.

SO yeah - seems like they have not been bored out correctly and have different internal diameters.  Not really inspiring my confidence in the product, but hopefully it is an isolated case.

Added to that - I thought the sleeve itself was made out of plain old steel.  I would have thought these would be plated or something, but otomoto say the are anodized, so hopefully that is good enough for wear and tear in the suspension area.

Otomoto also said some guys heat up the inserts and drop them in transmission fluid to seal them??  If they are anodized, dunno why they would do that?  Anwyays...

Otomoto are being cool about it all though and seem to be coming to the party - just thought I should mention some of my concerns re. the HSD Kit.

Can anyone offer experienced view on how this product is doing on their Zed?  Any issue with the sleeve (fitment or wear)?

Cheers!

#30 Shan

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 10:29 AM

OK.

I did some googling.

Apparently "steel" cannot be effectively anodised?
"Anodizing of steel is not feasible, and the simplest explanation is that whereas aluminum oxide can form a tight, tenacious, corrosion resistant coating, iron oxide (rust) cannot."

So yeah - if these sleeves are steel - I am a little more concerned.

There are other ways of treating steel though - but these mostly refer to stainless steel.

I doubt these are stainless steel though?

Anyone got some knowledge they can share on the subject?

Perhaps these sleeves are not plain steel - I made that assumption based on the cost of the units....maybe they made of something else?

Ideas anyone?

#31 Gareth. J.

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 10:32 AM

I had the same problem with my sleeves, I even tried heating them up to expand them fractionally, but wrecked them trying to press on, so new ones were ordered. I have the 55mm struts on my 240z and a couple of the sleeves I measured at around 54.5ishmm with top quality digital verniers.

I have no need to adjust my coil overs on a regular basis but the 3-4 times i have had to so far there have been no issues, i just use a very healthy amount of CRC before adjusting the collars. They haven't rusted either.

Ben was good to deal with and very helpful.

#32 Shan

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 11:38 AM

Yeah - agreed - Ben is helpful.  This particular issue is not really an Otomoto problem.....more of an HSD accuracy issue I suppose.

Good to know re. adjustment and wear of sleeve.
Obviously whatever coating they have is robust enough to stop the elements.

Do not plan to be adjusting mine much either, but it is bound to be necessary at some point.

Cheers for the info Gareth.

#33 Shan

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 11:32 AM

Ben was great - got the replacement sleeves shipped VERY promptly and they fitted over the struts fine.

So to wrap up on the saga that is my suspension upgrade....

I went for koni yellows.
I had the struts professionally sectioned by 25MM.
With koni yellows in the front, this was pretty much all you could section out without getting too fancy or modifying the insert.  25mm should give me enough extra travel and breathing space if I decide to lower the car.
I personally think sectioning any more than that - unless you plan to race the car - is probably overkill for the normal Joe.

So - I had front and rear strut tubes sectioned by the same 25MM. 

Since the rear struts are taller, I had the rear koni shocks (inserts) properly modified with a spacer to ensure correct height fitment.

I also purchased NEW matching gland nuts for the Koni Shocks.  These are the nuts at the top of the strut tubes which hold the shock absorber (strut) firmly in place. 
In my case I had three different gland nuts used in my suspension from previous owners repairs.  None of my suspension had any matching gland nuts - so I could not use them.
Additionally, I thought it important that the gland nut should match the koni shock precisely.  The gland nuts provided by top performance suspension (Koni distributor in Melb) hold everything in place perfectly.

So my struts were cut and the rear koni shocks were height modified with these particular gland nuts in mind.
You obviously need to take all these things into account (i.e strut tube, shock insert height and gland nut sizing) with all your measurements.

So with my struts sectioned, my koni's height modified (in the rear) and new gland nuts - was ready to look at the sleeves.

I purchased the HSD sleeve kit from otomoto and decided on the 5Kg springs all round.

I had the suspension out of the car already and taking measurements of std ride height was not really an option, so I decided on the sleeve placement based on comments from Lurch with Sulio's install.
In this case it was:
Front: from the top of the strut TUBE to the top of the threaded sleeve is 100mm.
Rear: from the top of the strut TUBE to the top of the threaded sleeve is 110mm.

Since I had sectioned the 25mm from the strut tube, I also took this from the above measurements. 
So in my case I had insert welded 75mm from tube of strut tube on the front (100mm less 25mm sectioned) and 85mm from top if the tube on the rear (110mm-25mm).

These are not on my car yet, so I do not know what the end result (as far as overall adjustment and ride) will be, but I figure it should be ok.    Bloody hope so.
The sleeves have lot's of adjustment as they have a bit of length, but I am also aware that adjusting too much can effect springs ability to perform (captive spring etc).  So yeah - I hope I did that one right.

Any feedback on what I have done would be appreciated on that.  Was the only thing I was a bit funny about and had no car to take effective ride height measurements from - so had to read posts and wing it a little.
I plan on putting 17's similar to sulio's on the car, so figure it should all be ok.

Shan.






#34 Dan260Z

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:59 AM

Digging up an old thread to add some info, and ask a question...

First the info re legality - I asked my VASS engineer if I could add coilovers and section the struts.  He said yes - BUT I would need any welds on suspension components to be Xrayed by a nata certified lab.  So I canned that idea in favour or Eibach lowered springs from motorsportauto/the zed store.  If I need to add more travel later I'm considering cutting off the threaded part of the strut tube and having a new thread cut, to avoid welding.  Anyone considered or actually done this? 

Now my question...  Could someone please help me out with the part numbers for the KYB AGX Z31 shocks?  and/or tell me if the diameter is right to fit a 74 260z 2+2 (or just tell me the outside diameter of the shocks and I'll measure my struts)?

#35 Gareth. J.

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:20 PM

Hey Dan, I run those shocks in the front of my 240. They are 340mm long, not sure on the width but they fit in my 260z front struts with heaps of room. IIRC I put a 30mm spacer on top of the shock.

I got them from Datsport in S.A. Baz was excellent to deal with and measured them while on the phone to make sure they'd fit. Price and postage was very good.

#36 Dan260Z

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:35 PM

Cheers Gareth, I've emailed Baz and will report back some details to help out anyhoen reading this in the future :)

From what you've said though it sounds like it should be a no-brainer.  Thanks for that.  How do you find them?  Mind if i ask which spring rate you run up front, and which setting you prefer on the KYB's?

#37 Gareth. J.

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:46 PM

I've got 340lb on the front, 23mm sway bar, usually run them on #2. I tried #4 at the island and it developed 'chatter' through Honda and MG, went back to #2 and all was good. I don't really adjust them at all now.

I might have the part number at home, somewhere. It's just a matter of finding it. Ha!

#38 Lurch ™

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:12 PM

Digging up an old thread to add some info, and ask a question...

First the info re legality - I asked my VASS engineer if I could add coilovers and section the struts.  He said yes - BUT I would need any welds on suspension components to be Xrayed by a nata certified lab.  So I canned that idea...


Find another Engineer - that one is smoking Crack.

#39 Gareth. J.

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:37 PM

Can't find my info. How did you go Dan?

#40 Dan260Z

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:17 AM

Baz called a few weeks back but I missed the call - hopefully give him a call at lunch today and see what we can sort out. 

In the meantime I'd tried ordering some Tokico Illuminas and Eibach springs from motorsport/the zed store - great service from them - however eibach aren't coming to the party after 2 months so I cancelled the springs, and Tokico is in the middle of changing distributor and thus their stuff is unavailable for a couple of months too... so I'm back onto trying to get springs and shocks sorted out locally.




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