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#41 hunterzed

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:57 AM

In the end the cops have recognised that hoons (and not just young adults) don't think about the risk of killing someone. Thats why they are targeting them with something that they do think about. Most of the P platers that I know would feel much more affected if they saw their car crushed than they would if they died. Not that you would actually feel much at all if you died.  But you get my point.

Losing their car is more in the forefront of their mind than causing an accident or dying. Thats the reality and thats why these laws have been brought in.

#42 Huw

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 01:39 PM

Given time restraints I haven't been able to look into this in great detail, but there are several problems I see with crushing 'hoon' cars.

1) the definition of hoon, despite any legislative base does often depend on the officer. I know people who have been threatened with such charges driving a 1989 Ford Laser (very hard to 'hoon' in one of those.

2) the ease of replacement of the typical 'hoon cars' means that crushing would be ineffective, as raised earlier most people have a disposable income and can replace a car. Those with cars that warrant protection usually (not always) have the common sense to restrict their driving indulgences to the track or somewhere safe.

3) unfortunately, it is not the car that is the problem, it is the idiot behind the wheel.

4) I do not see how 40km over is in anyway appropriate for a hooning offence,  driving on a freeway at 140 (if you know how to.... separate issue altogether) or above is not a problem....driving down a residential street or a school zone 20-30km over is stupidly dangerous, yet would seem to fall outside of the definition.

5) It is true that we get our licences out of a weet-bix box, some thought needs to be put into not only expanding the recording requirements for licencing but introducing a system which trains people in appropriate driving techniques and exposes them to the various environments (night time, snow etc).

6) suspension of a licence often does not prevent the 'hoon drivers' from driving. I know people who have had their licence suspended for either drink driving or speeding and were driving to and from work the next day.

7) Being a strong opponent of unnecessary imprisonment, this is hard to say but given the risks a short term or community service etc may be the most appropriate response.

8) However, culpable driving penalties are already quite heavy and introducing a penalty such as this where no one has been harmed......yet, is difficult.

9) The entire approach to speeding and hoon driving needs to be rethought. Speed limits need to rethought, as does the policing. Highways and relatively safe roads are heavily policed, while local roads and schools are very rarely policed.

10) despite my misgivings about the police enforcement of these laws, whenever I have encountered an officer on a driving related matter, they have been (largely) very reasonable.

11) it is important to remember that speed doesn't kill....sudden stops do.

O well....that's my brain fart done, sorry if it doesn't make much sense currently sitting in Tokyo fairly drained from a week of work....need to go for a drive but the zed too far away.

Although, I did see a beautiful white 240Z parked next to Tokyo Tower a couple of days ago.

Huw



#43 Zeddophile

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 03:50 PM

There seems to be a lot of talk about making young drivers have 'cheap, low performance cars'.  Sorry to say guys, that really doesn't make it any harder to hoon.  For the older ones among you, think about how much power your first car had, and then think about the stupid things I'm sure most of you did in them.

Sure, you may not be able to do a massive burnout from a standing start, or hit 200km/h, but you give me one of those crappy early 90's Corollas (the round tail FWD things), with a clapped out motor, the 3 speed auto, and a broken handbrake cable, and I'll still be able to get it bulk sideways.  Cheap econoboxes have cheap econobox road holding.

And for those who don't know how to provoke lift off oversteer, they always have the option of going to McDonalds and borrowing some trays, now don't they.  Although I suppose then the government can ban McDonalds from serving food on plastic trays, and everyone will be safe again (seems to be the way Australia is going, following America down the drain).

Doesn't matter what the car is, if the intent is there to be an idiot, there's always something stupid that can be done with a car.  Thats why its driver ATTITUDE that needs adjustment.

#44 Zedman240®

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 04:40 PM

Reading all these responses with ways to stop the bad behavior with laws to me seems pointless with so many people unable to stick to the current laws we have. Drivers who keep driving with suspended licenses, drink drivers etc. I doubt it will ever stop. Even with the current testing we have, they think it's more imoprtant if you can park a car between witches hats than learn how to MERGE on a freeway on ramp.. I would like to shoot the genius who decided to put lights on a freeway on ramp? Only in Australia..Just when you should be accelerating to reach 100kph, they stop you to start again? Where's the logic?
One thing I would like to do to re-offending drink drivers, place a heap of large labels on their car like "repeat drink driver" for a long period of time.. Same thing to any other repeat offenders with their offence.
As with the original post of crushing cars...yes after the third.. There are only a finite number of crap box Foulcans and Dunnydores around...soon the cheap supply will dry up!

#45 hunterzed

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 04:47 PM

As far as I can see, whether you agree or not that these laws are going to make a difference or are going to infringe on freedom of rights etc. At least it has a lot of people talking about it. That is, as far as I'm concerned, the most effective way to educate people. Bring the subject out in the open as a talking point that goes across a wide range of people. If nothing else comes of it at least people will see the general public feeling on the subject.  ;)

#46 620Z

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 08:16 AM

Couldn't agree with you more Huw.
All this crap about speed killing. Like someone said it's not the speeding that kills it's the sudden stop. It's been going on since the invention of the car. It's only the media jumping on the band wagon because it's a touchy subject at the moment and sell's papers and makes news.
Anyone can go to CAMS and buy an $88- license and go racing on a circuit at speeds well over 200klms with no training or testing. Infact plenty of people do with no problems or accidents. I know it's a controlled environment. I guess my point is that like someone said 140klms on a freeway is not massively dangerous if you are not driving erratically like the police try and make out. As we all know cars of today are made so safe and can travel at speeds well over 200klms no problems at all. I guess if they are serious about speeding being so "masively" dangerous why doesn't the government put restriction on all new cars and limit them to maybe 140klms only. No that's to hard. Well probably not if they were serious. Instead let's just give it a label and make out all people over the speed limit are dangerous killers which is rediculous.
Maygs - I guess you have never heard of any bashings or knifinings in town either! Come on people walk away from our courts untouched with no Jail time almost daily. We all know there is no room in the prisons for all the criminals. So a slap on the wrist and $200- to the poor box is all that is done. then these joke of Judges go home and sleep at night whilst a rapist, bashers, drink drivers walk free and offend again.
I know police have a job to do. I guess my point is to get some consistancy and make punishments fit the crime. Probably why a lot of people leave the force out of frustration since Judges seem to live in a world of their own.

#47 MaygZ

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 10:40 AM

ZZZ8, whilst I continue to be amazed (I should know better by now) with the serious offenders avoiding gaol by blaming their parents, their drugs/alcohol, society in general etc.  Traffic law is new and quite different.  Traffic law contains many mandatory sentences.  Drink driving is one of them.  (Others are speed and suspended/disqualified driving.)

Double penalties for second offence in 10 years and a sentence for subsequent offences.

Jeff Kennet brought in mandatory sentences for offences where guns or knives are used.  Subsequent labor govts have reduced these sentences to almost nonexistent.  Brumby is now considering going back to the way Jeff set it up.  But very much off topic.

Driving at 140 on most of our freeways would be safer if all were doing 140, but they don't.  Everyone thinks they are good drivers, and we all know that few people really are any good at it.  Even those that are good at it, aren't good at it ALL the time.  A myriad of distractions divert attention (frequently it is the ridiculously high number of signs on our roads, not including the distractions within our own cars (Kids, radio, CD etc).  Just 'cause we can drive at 200 on a race track (without passengers, no radio, no phone, no smokes, not eating lunch and no traffic lights, no side streets, no cars doing 60 in a 100 zone) we are concentrating at our highest ability, doesn't mean we can travel over 100 on the freeway.

I believe that speeding is dangerous, selfish and short sighted.  My 2 cents.

#48 620Z

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:37 AM

You make some valid point Maygz and I agree with your point's re 140klms.
Let's hope Brumby can stop talking and finally actually re introduce some of those laws we speak of. I would love to see mandatory sentences come back as it seems with lawyers spin and Judges discretion most criminals just aren't concerned when they are caught since they know there is a fare chance of either getting off or minimal sentencing. And for a cop who does all the hard work to see a lot of people get off lightly must be as frustrating as anything. Let's hope common sense prevails and the "do gooders" get over-ridden some time soon.

#49 zedevan

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:55 AM

if there are going to be all the restrictions on the car's p platers drive, and with the trends this is causing, i believe there should be one limiting the maximum weight of the car. that is, since p platers can no longer have nice fast sports cars, they get jacked up 4wd's which are much more dangerous for other road users.

speed doesn't kill, momentum does. so their 4wd with jacked up suspension which can't corner at 50kmh and weighs 2 tone, is just as likely, if not more, to kill someone in another car, as my 1 tone car going 100kmh etc. then there's the difference in crumple zones, collison heights...

maybe instead of speed limit's there should be enertia/momentum limits. so if you're a truck or towing a caravan and have a head on with another car, you are only allowed to travel at a speed which will inflict the same amount of damage as if you were driving a datsun 1200 ute traveling at 100...

#50 620Z

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:04 AM

Yes Evan it always worries me when I see an "L" Plater in a 2.5 to 3 ton 4WD packed full with the family. That is something I reckon shouldn't be allowed. My mate has a 4WD and when he put's his "Muddy" tyres on the car it wonders all over the road and only just makes it around bitumum road corners doing 60klms. He said one time he actually ran off the road because the tyres were so bad on the road. Just another issue that probably needs review.

#51 Zedman240®

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:38 AM

If we were to put different speed limits for all vehicles, it would be chaos on the road. A freeway with some doing 100, some doing 80 and large trucks doing 60..It's bad enough as it is with some "drivers" doing 20 below the limit now.

Best thing I think is for all young (and some other) drivers to complete driver training and to discover that driving a REAL car isn't as easy as on a Playstation 3.

#52 hunterzed

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:31 AM

While we're on the band wagon for testing. I'm a big believer that everyone should do the learners test every time you renew your licence. There are drivers out there.......... Maybe even some of you on here. lol. that have never had to do any sort of test involving even simple things like how to use a round-a-bout.  ::) ;D

#53 sco_aus

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 12:44 PM

I note people giving 4wds a hard time, perhaps its the moron behind the wheel to blame and not the vehicle.  I have  a 4wd with mud tires and I drive accordingly, in other words, i have a 2 tonne truck, so i slow the fuck down... Banning all types of vehicles because of a couple of dick heads, is only going to lead to us losing our zeds (and me losing my 4wd because you know of an idiot..)

#54 620Z

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 02:19 PM

I wouldn't concern your sel too much Scott. I think this thread is more of a venting session than reality. I can't see anyone of influence actually reading and taking our comments into Parliment. Ha Ha
Speaking of hoons. How was that legend in NSW drifting on ACA the other night. Poor bastard has been tried and convicted by media. I reckon a few dudes will be locking up their collection of video's now rather than throwing them on Youtube. Whilst a bit radical. We don't know if he had ensured the roads were clear etc. If they catch him he would be in serious trouble. But I still wonder if the law would come down on him to hard?
Let the banter/debate begin again. Ha Ha. It's your fault for starting this Daniel!

#55 tbscobraZ

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 05:04 PM

As a learner drive I've had it pretty easy but talking amongst my friends that are of the younger generation under 20 not one has been in an accident however this is a miracle seeing as though not a week goes past when we have to avoid a crash on the road. I myself have only had two incidents one was a 80+ year old man that merged without looking, the other a 25 year old in a pulsar. To add to this P-plater's and the like are targets for 25-30yrs old's that think the own the road. On one occasion I had a 25+ year old get mouth off and get out of his car because I was looking in his direction when he rolled into my view. I will be doing a defensive driving course and enjoying it. This is why it doesn't surprise me teens have crashes it's hard enough learning how to drive without so called experienced drivers trying to kill you.

#56 sco_aus

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 06:34 AM

lol, well said. 
Oh and Craig, all I can say from what I have seen on Skylines Australia forum, doesn't matter what the thread or the forum, be really carefull what you post...

#57 chris240

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 03:29 PM

troopcarriers should banned from our roads....



wait for it.... ::)

#58 MaygZ

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 07:43 PM


speed doesn't kill, momentum does. so their 4wd with jacked up suspension which can't corner at 50kmh and weighs 2 tone, is just as likely, if not more, to kill someone in another car, as my 1 tone car going 100kmh etc.


Both these examples have the same momentum ???

"perhaps its the moron behind the wheel to blame and not the vehicle."  Spot on.

#59 Zedman240®

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 09:30 PM

Any large metal object traveling on a road can kill; don't blame the vehicle, just the deaf, dumb chimp controlling it.

Now it's not even safe to be in your front yard of your house or lounge room... some idiot can come crashing through it at anytime...

#60 zedevan

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 09:25 AM

Both these examples have the same momentum


that was my point maygz, a normal car doing twice the speed limit is 'only' as dangerous to other drivers as one twice it's weight doing the speed limit.

I know speed restrictions based on the weight of a car would NEVER work, however the number of p platers who are now jumping into  jacked up 4wd's running mud tyres instead of the 'evil turbo and v8' cars they are now banned from, really does scare me as I feel alot less safe. There is just as much chance of them being idiots and speeding on freeways, or getting distracted to easily. Just now they can do some real damage to whatever they hit, and their car has no chance of handling an unexpected object or corner etc to avoid the accident at the last minute




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