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What MIG do I buy for working on the Z


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#41 Scoota G

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:00 PM

Is anyone here actually qualified welder?


I anly only asked cause i'm a qualified 2nd Class welder with three Certs under my belt. Passed top of my class, but now i don't admit to cause i don't like doing it on a commercial scale. Welding is like cooking, the application of heat to produce the required results. If you can do it any way... anyway you do it that works... is a result. Personally, i've done panel repair with an arc. Refer to "Running On Empty"  as "it's all in the fingers, it's in the Blood" if you got the Motor Magic.

#42 Kodie

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:34 PM

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#43 xa1973

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:48 PM

Hey reverendz,
tone down your remarks, your not retreating like a gentleman, your having a swipe. You should have been able to see from my post that I am an experienced welder. That is I have many years of experience brazing copper, brass, stainless and composites, welding thin, thick and heavy duty metals. And people pay me for my work. I wrote my reply to a guy who has little or no experience welding, a gasless mig for him will be a complete waste of time(that is, he will not get good welds, and it will be frustrating for some time). Nobody in the industry uses a gasless mig unless they have to, ie onsite welding in tricky situations. A good gasless mig for onsite welding is approx $4000. I have one which I use for welding reo bars in insitu-concrete walls at height, but always take my gas mig for the lower walls. Why would I recommend a gasless mig or an arc welder when I know that he is going to have a much better success with a good quality gas mig.
As for all the remarks on using the minimum amps - think about it. The idea of all welding is to match your amps and feed rate to the situation. If simply going for minimum amps then why not just buy a 1 amp mig. Because it wont do the job. You can call it the maximum or the minimum. Start high and adjust down until you get a good penetration without blowing holes - there you have your minumum. Start low and adjust up until you get good penetration - there you have your maximum. Same thing.
Does anyone have something intelligent to add, or does someone else want to test my knowledge of welding.
Peter.
BSc building technology.
BSc Toxicology.
Dip Horticulture.
Welding courses: Arc welding. Mig welding. Brazing, soldering.
12 years commercial experience.

I know all........(just kidding)


TOUCHE'  ;)

29 years....in trade
Fitter and Turner
BSc Mechanical and Automotive Engineering
Construction and Mining Industry
CAT, CUMMINS, KOMATSU, HITACHI

#44 reverendzed

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:52 PM

43 years
Doctorate from the school of Hard Knocks ;)
Rev.

#45 waxhead

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:55 PM

not a certified welder but i do teach it at high school

#46 menzcar

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 12:37 AM

PS (Rev), my tongue is always in my cheek.
PPS, really a Rev? what denomination? lets talk religion and get a real fiery debate going!!

#47 Kodie

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 08:46 AM

Where is lurches input into this? He is a boiler isnt he?! Oh well im sure when he see fit to drop in this will get all the more interesting :P

#48 RBZ 260

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:40 AM

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good idea. its getting very fierce now. hihihihihihihih


i used both
if nothing better around ill use  gasless. its just messy and i know that i can do lot nicer and quicker job with gas one.

ive used few brands. CIGweld would be my preffered one than BOC. WIA be nice but very pricey. used some of the chinese ones once u get the settings right they work well.
i got cemig which is like 15+ yo italian made. had its few issues but still paid its self off countless times.

if u going to be doing this more than just on one car i still think u better invest in the gas one.

sure bottle rental can be exy but gasless wire aint cheap so u paying for it either way.

best option is if u know whos got either one of them go there have a play with both.have  welds and than decides which one u like better. end of story.

#49 nat0_240_chevZ

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:40 PM

ok, boys, settle,

quoting something from previous here
""Don't be afraid to pick up an older unit if its from one of the good brands (Miller, Lincoln, Kemppi, Fronius, ESAB, BOC, and one or two others), as they will still weld smoother than a lot of the new cheapies.""

what about a WIA???
i purchased one earlier this year, been using others cig transmigs that are clapped out and crap, because they are not looked after, I occasionally use wia cdt migs here when i need to.

My wia mig is only a single phase cost me about $1650, new but dont tell anyone as its worth far more ie 2.5 k plus.
WIA is made in australia (adelaide to be precise) and the reason they cost more is the quality of unit you do get, WIA is the australian counterpart of Miller anyhows. which i also have a miller tig / stick etc.

It seems the thead went a bit off topic previously, with the gas / gasless debate, but yes gasless is an need to use basis, as mentioned above re: onsite in and sito's you just cant use get a bottle with you. NO welding is done at my work with a gasless mig NONE. and never will be unless called up for by customer or welding specs.

Get yourself a unit that will do what you need to do plus more, you will never regret it.
The mig i have purchased with 1.2mm wire (I only use 0.9mm for panel heavy etc etc its all about technigq regardless of unit.)
with the 1.2mm wire i can single pase an 6-8mm fillet with extremely good pen'o.
my unit is a 200amp unit (even though assured it is a 225amp bu the manufacturers themselves)

I took the plunge to have a more workshop unit, but they make an awesome smaller one which is either 150 or 175 amp with or without trolley which has the same capacity as my workshop one but smaller wire spools. (if you wait both these models will be replaced with 1 unit with 185amps)

I find i am able to weld metal thin as about 0.55mm together in butt form with small round to oval tacks untill they blend in with each other for panel work, but this is tricky even for me, and i am capable of welding with tig to this thickness also.

BUT wia welders do cost a bit more than youre average chinese or other made.

other units I recommend are kempiis and fronius' but to get these units tserviced or repaired they have to go interstate and parts are ex OS. WIA's are local and can be repaired here in adelaide or melborne and even NSW from memory.

hope this helps with your decision, no more debate about the gas / gasless I beg you all!!!!

cheers chevZ

#50 marty

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 03:25 PM

In reply to original question and nothing else.

Keep the your stick welder, and buy some TIG gear.
TIG is the best for body work, it adds the least heat so will not distort the panel, it is also the most forgiving for this kind of stuff, you will still need to rent a bottle, but you will be able to do a quality job. MIG is the easiest to use in general, but its not the best for THIS job. Don't be put off by people saying it is hard to use, it is just like stick but you use two hands so the transition is easy. A shat TIG job will be much better then a shat MIG job for this kind of stuff, likewise for a good job, so you can't lose. I would suggest that you spend a bit more and get a triggered arc though, it will cost a bit more but you will not have to strike it, very handy in tight spots and it means you can start exactly where you want to. Use the TIG you already have it and it is the proper thing, I know I might be upsetting alot of people as everyone seems to be loyal to there MIG, but comeon, it should have been TIG from the start.

As far as mild or stainless, try to stick with the parent metal all the time, so mild in your case.



#51 FuzzyDropbear

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 01:14 PM

Ok guys, I know, this is a thread dig, but it's on topic, so I'd rather post here than start a new thread.

I'm looking at buying and learning how to use a mig, cause I want to fix the front end of the zed up properly, and yes, I have searched the forums etc. But I'm still a bit unsure of what I should be looking for.

Just been up to BOC and they're clearing out their old units at the moment because they have new models coming in. They have a their 190c model going for $880 at the moment and i was wondering if this is a bit of overkill? You can wind the amps back down to 35, but is this still too high for panel work? I've read here that 20 - 30amps is what would be preferrable(?).

Would I be better off going for one of the smaller cigweld models?

I know a few of the members here have been able to get good welds with cheaper equipment, but would the more expensive brands help noobs like myself along? Yes, I know nothing beats experience and practice hours, but would it be better for me to start with a more expensive welder? I'm not using this daily, it's just for the zed and home DIY jobs.

I'm not looking to start another tig vs. mig / gas vs. gasless debate, but any advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Rob

#52 zzzzed

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 01:50 PM

you cant have overkill when buying a mig.The one i use at work for panel work is a cig 320 or something like that and it does a fantastic job.
A 190 is a perfect size for around the home use  and that price sounds like good value

#53 MaygZ

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 02:08 PM

Fuzzy, I've had the Transmig 165 recommended to me by several people, so if they are clearing out one of them can you post (or PM) their price for me?

Regarding learning how to weld; have a look at this post - http://www.viczcar.c...8.html#msg57198

I just finished my course and learnt heaps.  I recommend them to anyone, even if you think you can already weld.

MaygZ

#54 FuzzyDropbear

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:57 PM

Thanks guys, feedback much appreciated.

Yep, I'm planning to attend a welding course at some stage, have to check when they start this year I think.

May, regarding the Transmig, they can't help out with that one as they're a boc store and don't stock any cigweld gear. Sorry buddy.

What do you guys think about those inverter mig welders? Just had a mate tell me to look into them, are they any better / easier to use?

#55 Zeddophile

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:58 PM

Just been up to BOC and they're clearing out their old units at the moment because they have new models coming in. They have a their 190c model going for $880 at the moment and i was wondering if this is a bit of overkill? You can wind the amps back down to 35, but is this still too high for panel work? I've read here that 20 - 30amps is what would be preferrable(?).


There was a BOC Mig 190c Industrial nearly brand new on Ebay for about $500 the other day, and I was seriously considering it - the thing that put me off was the low duty cycle.  However, I can forsee myself ending up welding something big (like 10mm plate or similar) at some stage for whatever reason.  For using on panels and smaller guage stuff, the 190c should be fine.  If you wanted lower minimum amperage, are they clearing out the 170p as well?

BOC are APPARENTLY just rebadged Kemppi welders - which if its true, makes them a bloody good investment.  However, never been able to confirm this one, so take with a grain of salt.

What do you guys think about those inverter mig welders? Just had a mate tell me to look into them, are they any better / easier to use?


Personally I'd steer clear for home use....  The whole inverter thing is still fairly new, and ultimately they just aren't as reliable YET.  The name brands are pretty good, but you'll pay for it.  Inverters are also bloody expensive to repair, control boards start at over a grand, and the chinese machines tend to drop them after a year or two. 

Not much to go wrong in a transformer machine - its mostly just a bunch of copper wire, and its amazing how many 30-40 year old transformer welders you find still in daily use in industry.  Newer transformer machines do tend to have electronic control panels, which are expensive if they spit it, but they have less than an inverter.

As far as actual welding performance, the power output is comparable, although I think they have a wider range (ie. go to lower amps).  Some guys reckon the inverter TIGs just don't run as smoothly as transformer units (start much more aggresively, and a bit less stable in the arc), and I imagine the same would apply to mig, but I've never played with an inverter machine myself, only transformer machines.

The weight of an inverter is a definite advantage though - actually being able to pick up and carry around over 200amps of welding power is pretty awesome...  I have two 250amp transformer machines in the garage at the moment (my Kemppi TIG and a mates UniMIG), and they are both most certainly a 2 person lift!  Being able to pick one up with one hand and stroll up the back yard to fix the damn sagging gate would be awesome, but just ain't going to happen with my machines!

At the end of the day, for the average home user who wants to do a bit of panel work and the occasional bench or something, a good brand transformer MIG up to near 200 amps is something they'll probably have for 30 years, and will do everything they ever need.  If you need to upgrade to a bigger machine at a later date, and you bought a good brand one now, you'll still sell the little machine for good money - just have a look on Ebay to see what I mean, the good brands hold value.

  You'll also get a lot more grunt for dollar out of a transformer at the moment over an inverter (to my mind anyway, everytime I get tempted by a nice little Kemppi Miniarc, I just look at the size transformer machine I could buy for half the price).

#56 KatoKid

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 06:40 PM

I had a half share with my brother in an old  CIG 170 amp which is now 30 years old and still going strong. Problem is that when I wanted to use it he needed it too so Ive just bought a new Lincoln 210, Australian made (even though parent is USA) and tough as nails. Bought it through a friend that owns an engineering shop so got it at a good price, all his welders are Lincoln and get flogged every day and he never has a problem with them. Its probably overkill for what I will use it for and haven't tried it on really thin sheet yet but can go down to .6 wire and 35 amp so should be OK.

#57 biggels240z

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 07:50 PM

I have a uni mig 172 its a awesome welder its capable of doing very thin to reasonable thick steel so everything on the zed i can fix , from memory its adjustable from 27amp to 190 amp  wont blow holes in everything its a very versitale mig !!! its gas and gasless but its much cleaner using gas. Relatively cheap welder which will do everything up to about 8mm steel !!!!!!!!!

#58 FuzzyDropbear

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 12:34 PM

Thanks all for your replies. I've asked Scoota to come and check it out as well.

...If you wanted lower minimum amperage, are they clearing out the 170p as well?


Nah, they only have the one 190c left, the rest have been sold.

BOC are APPARENTLY just rebadged Kemppi welders - which if its true, makes them a bloody good investment.  However, never been able to confirm this one, so take with a grain of salt.

Personally I'd steer clear for home use....  The whole inverter thing is still fairly new, and ultimately they just aren't as reliable YET. 


The lady in the shop was saying they were built in Switzerland(?) so are possibly just a rebadged unit. Might be some truth to that.
Thanks for the heads up regarding the inverter as well, might just stick to the transformer for a while, can always buy an inverter down the track once they get a bit more advanced.

There was a BOC Mig 190c Industrial nearly brand new on Ebay for about $500 the other day, and I was seriously considering it - the thing that put me off was the low duty cycle.


Just did the sums regarding the duty cycle, it is quite low isn't it... Hmm, might have to have a chat with Scoot regarding that.. Can see myself getting annoyed only being able to weld for pretty short periods, does this change if you wind the amps back down to minimum though?

Thanks heaps guys  :) Cheers!

#59 FLEXZED

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 01:03 PM

There was a BOC Mig 190c Industrial nearly brand new on Ebay for about $500 the other day, and I was seriously considering it - the thing that put me off was the low duty cycle.  However, I can forsee myself ending up welding something big (like 10mm plate or similar) at some stage for whatever reason.  For using on panels and smaller guage stuff, the 190c should be fine.  If you wanted lower minimum amperage, are they clearing out the 170p as well?

BOC are APPARENTLY just rebadged Kemppi welders - which if its true, makes them a bloody good investment.  However, never been able to confirm this one, so take with a grain of salt.



hi guys
after reading this post, i got a bit excited and went out and bought the new boc 190c mig welder for $800 + spool of 0.8 mm wire , havent tried it will give it a go tonight
the sales rep at boc confirmed that they are rebadged kemppi

so now i have my trusty cem due mig up for sale

Loui


#60 Zeddophile

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 07:47 PM

Just did the sums regarding the duty cycle, it is quite low isn't it... Hmm, might have to have a chat with Scoot regarding that.. Can see myself getting annoyed only being able to weld for pretty short periods, does this change if you wind the amps back down to minimum though?


Yes, if you run it at lower amps, the duty cycle increases.  Often manufacturers have a kind of chart with duty cycles at 3 outputs, odd that BOC don't.  However I just looked up WIA's Weldmatic 175, and it has a 16% duty cycle at 175A, but 100% duty cycle at 67A.  Theoretically the BOC should be pretty similar, and since Loui has just bought one, he may be able to find those figures for you on the machine or in the owners manual.

Seems to continue to be strong indicators that BOC are in fact Kemppis, so maybe I will just have to bite the bullet and pick up one of the BOC 250R with remote wire feed that are sitting on Evilbay at the moment.... But my wallet hurts just thinking about that!




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