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Jap Style Fender Mirror - Correct placement


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#61 d3c0y

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:10 PM

I mistakenly drilled the hole where the two measurements intersected and after talking to Alan that's not how the diagram is intending to be read. As mentioned above its from the edge of the plastic base.
The left hand side mirror is not in exactly the same spot as the right hand side mirror either.

#62 Veloce

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:37 PM

Thanks Fairlady Z for doing that, your measurements are pretty much spot on to my modified drawing above (headlight bucket measurement is 4mm out but we're now talking bees dicks).

Without having a fender mirror in front of me, both drawings most likely lead to the same outcome, however i imagine it is much easier to work with the centre mesurement of the hole rather than work back from the base of the mirror.

Still doesn't explain the offset conflict, guess it just depends how much sake the factory workers consumed the night before  ;)




#63 HS30-H

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:52 PM

So are these cars all "wrong"?


What makes you think they are "right", or even different to my original ( much misunderstood and now much plagiarised and altered ) diagram and measurements?

The reason I measured to the edges of the plastic bases was because my mirrors were already mounted on the car ( by the factory... ) and I wasn't going to be taking them off just to take some measurements ( sod that ). So I measured to the base, and gave the dimensions that way - pointing out that there are not really any hard and fast lines on the bodywork to measure to - but still a couple of people misunderstood it, or said that the diagram "looked wrong"......

From your photos, the first ( green ) car is an HLS30-U that's been modified to look like an HS30-H ( it's an American car, so it didn't have fender mirrors when it left the factory ) and the white car has chromed mirrors. Since none of these cars left the factory with chrome mirrors ( chrome fender mirrors are usually 510 Bluebird or C10 Skyline items with different stalks to the genuine S30-series Z items ) how can you tell that they are in their original positions anyway....?

All you're doing is muddying the waters. 

#64 Veloce

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:16 PM

Yawn...

Any of you speak Japanese? Better get Yoshihiko Matsuo on the phone before somebody has a meltdown.

But apologies for re-plagiarising an already plagiarised factory diagram, you better copyright it next time.

Seriously though, who cares, photo measurements are now there, i'll work off those, nuff said.



#65 sexual_sushi

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:34 PM

Veloce, HS30-H is a great source of information and it looks like he is just trying to make it clear and concise. There is so much false information on the internet, in my early days I bought an S15 6 Speed box because I read a post saying that it bolts on just like the 5 speed boxes. If someone had posted below it saying it is BS I would have saved myself some money.


#66 sexual_sushi

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

And if know one cares then why does this thread exist?

#67 mossy

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:50 PM

+1 for Alan for being a wealth of information, gave me some great info on some japanese seats I was going to buy recently.

Also I have some factory mounted fender mirrors and the meaurements came up as per the diagram.

#68 Veloce

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:19 PM

Fair call guys, but the problem appeared to be that it was not clear and concise if people have made mistakes mounting them, hence why i was attempting to make it more clear... and that is not a personal attack on you HS30-H or anyone else for that matter. Please ignore my childish response above  :-X

Having said that, if you guys feel my interpretation of the set-out is more confusing than the original one, you guys want me to delete it? I have no problem with that.



#69 saxon

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:34 PM

In my honest and often wrong opinion, put them where you like, doesn't matter if it's original or not. The zed is great cause you can do all sorts of modification to it, airdam, flares, rear spoiler, wheels, etc etc and as long as it's tasteful, the community embrases it. All sorts of personalisations are in scope, and that's a very good thing.

I attempted to fit the fender mirrors as per the diagram and I didn't like where it placed them. It doesn't mean the diagram was wrong, I just didn't like the original, just as I don't like the original front end without an airdam. So I put them somewhere else.

Put them where you like, the s30 looks amazing, has aged incredibly well, but it isn't perfect so do as you please to make it your own.

#70 nizm0zed

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 07:11 PM

well your diagram is definitely wrong, coz i measured up my 1/24th scale JADA model and once i converted the scale into mm and then into inches then its definite that they should be symmetrically placed on the roof....
Simple maths, easy as 1, 2, 4.

I took a photo too, just so i could measure on the photo.  :P

#71 Fairlady Z

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:04 AM

Veloce ,no probs at least someone appreciates the effort i went through.

HS30-H Alan, been following your post and various forums for years.Saved most of them giving the info that's is precious.Heaps of respect and kudos to you. As you said earlier these things are difficult to measure exact and makes it harder with mirrors in place.
Still think your diagram is very good. You have drawn the dimensions and shown its the edges of the base and not center holes.
I thought mine were slightly offset when plugs were in. And they are by roughly 5mm.

Anyway this wasn't a contest who's right or wrong.
My car is early Aus delivered s1 240z that has fender mirror holes and been covered by a plug. Same plug was used in some other datsun cars like 180b that arrived with fender mirrors.

Most cars at dealership had they fender mirrors removed and pluged with these plugs. Than the normal door mirrors fixed. In my case only driver side.

Now this car still has original paint on the front somewhat stuffed but only single layer. So i know the holes have not been put on afterwards.

Nizm0zed

I'm not sure if that last comment was directed at me or Veloce?Regardles uncalled for.

I lost over an hour digging the panel out of storage removing and breaking the other plug so i can take reasonable measurements and help fellow zedder out.

That includes uploading the pics, editing sensitive info out of the image and posting it.

I still did this on my day off from work that i took so i can catch up on some of my restoration work at home.loosing valuable not existing free time.

So its understandable that comments like that $hit me right off.

At least i went through the effort posting pics so people can see for them selves.


disclamer to my pics and dimensions.
It was measured from an original car as accurate as possible.
Is it correct or not?make your own decision
Any decision that you made using these dimensions are at your own risk.


#72 nizm0zed

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:49 PM

Nizm0zed

I'm not sure if that last comment was directed at me or Veloce?Regardles uncalled for.


Poor attempt at humour to show that perhaps some people are being a bit too pedantic about where exactly to drill a hole.
at the end of the day, its a datsun, there were thousands of them made each year.
its not rare, its not worth $1M.
These cars were assembled by people, with the whole 'human factor' when it came to measuring.
Sure they would have had templates to use, but im sure there was an acceptable variance even within the factory.
I apologise if my crappy attempt at humour was taken the wrong way, that was not my intent, although im sure few people will say how much they appreciate people like you and Alan (HS30-H) sharing the wealth of knowledge and experience you have, its very valuable information for us all to have in the open public domain and we all do truly appreciate it.
personally, if someone was to criticize my car because its not built to original factory condition, i would politely introduce their butt to my boot, but i also accept that some people do enjoy that facet of ownership/restoration and i guess at the end of the day it does increase the overall 'value' both historically and physically to still have pristine examples available to be seen in the flesh and enjoyed.

#73 doudous

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:56 PM

My car was an Aussie delivered WITH fender mirrors...

I still have the original rectangle shaped mirrors (which I didn't like) and replaced them with JDM style bullet mirrors I purchased from the USA.....



The placement looked exactly the same as the JDM zed I recently sold...

To me it looks strange to not be placed on the outer edges of the fender...?



#74 chris240

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 08:13 PM

[quote. author=Fairlady Z link=topic=4316.msg119160#msg119160 date

Nizm0zed
I lost over an hour digging the panel out of storage removing and breaking the other plug so i can take reasonable measurements and help fellow zedder out.

That includes uploading the pics, editing sensitive info out of the image and posting it.

I still did this on my day off from work that i took so i can catch up on some of my restoration work at home.loosing valuable not existing free time.

So its understandable that comments like that $hit me right off.


[/quote]

Wow...
On my day off, I fixed mums washing machine, retuned my parents set top box, exchanged some kids clothes at westfield, put a load of washing on, spent over an hour at Woolies, did pick up duties at school , folded clothes for what seemed an eternity, and finally got to play with the zed when the wife came home....
Yes.....I really feel for you.

#75 sexual_sushi

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:11 PM

Alright enough. Get back on topic.

Place the mirrors wherever you want (I would too). Post photos here and measurements and even your experience with how functional they are and post why you placed them where you did (don't claim it is correct if you looked up some pictures from the internet and took a punt).

If you are looking for factual information on where the mirrors could have been placed from the factory, listen to Alan's posts and filter through the comments from other knowledgable members (the title of this thread does state "CORRECT PLACEMENT").

BOTH are valuable resources for many different reasons.

And quit the whinging ;)

#76 Fairlady Z

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:29 AM

As far as im aware either measurement is close enough and wouldnt bother spliting hairs.
Ive been using Alen's info for years and 99.9% of the time he was spot on. I do not doubt his info for a sec.
From what i have gathered that early zeds weren't precission made and lot of quirks and faults compared s2.

Nism0zed yeah i know was a joke just a bad one at the wrong time.
Im not a purist as well and have the same attitude as you when comes what i do to my cars. But do appriciate the concourse guys and having an attempt myself with this s1 i got. Alan and Greg chassis181 are my source of correct info for s1 cars. Appologies for being too harsh. So no hard feelings from my side.

And Chris i think nizm0zed is old and big enough to fight his own battles so he don't need backup.if u got something to say than pm me.

Enjoy the fender mirror placement guys wherever you decide to mount them.


#77 Veloce

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:25 AM

Whoa sorry guys didn't mean to start a sh*t fight!

I come to this conclusion;

Original drawing - measurements after mirrors have been installed on car, including allowances for mirror mounting base.

Modified drawing - measurements for installation purposes (centrepoint for hole saw drill).

Conclusion: - Both drawings appear to be accurate and essentially take you to the same outcome (+/- 5mm), just different ways of going about it.



#78 Gareth. J.

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:35 PM

So at the end of another three pages we have come to the same conclusion. There is multiple fitments, all very similar, use the diagram, but most of all put them where YOU like them..... After all you're the one who see's the most faults with your car, cause you've seen every inch of it  :)


No offense intended, but it might be time to lock this thread mods!

#79 HS30-H

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:47 AM

I come to this conclusion;

Original drawing - measurements after mirrors have been installed on car, including allowances for mirror mounting base.


Installed at the factory, don't forget....

Modified drawing - measurements for installation purposes (centrepoint for hole saw drill).

Conclusion: - Both drawings appear to be accurate and essentially take you to the same outcome (+/- 5mm), just different ways of going about it.


Except that your "modified" drawing gives the dimensions as being symmetrical for left and right, whereas - and this is beyond doubt - the Japanese market positions were assymetrical.

Any differences in dimensions that come down to Millimetres are quite likely due to the fact that there NO hard and fast datum point to measure from on the inner side of the wing / fender / guard, even when it's not mounted on the car. I think it's very likely that the original mounting holes were punched ( not drilled ) into the sheetmetal by a guy who had to manhandle the panel onto some kind of jig fixture. I doubt 100% consistent accuracy down to a couple of mm was possible, or even expected.

My original dimension drawing was made in response to a request for the mounting positions on the original ZGs, and I pointed out at the time that - as far as I am aware - no factory dimensions for the mounting positions exist. It's been frustrating to see these dimensions copied, reposted and misunderstood ( because they were taken out of their original context ) and then accused of being "wrong" when people are looking at the results of others misinterpreting and misunderstanding them. I'm not 100% sure that the rare 'Export' model instances of factory fender mirrors - early Australian / NZ cars and even some early Euro and Scandinavian cars - were even mounted in the same position(s) as the Japanese market ones. Nissan did all sorts of unexpected little things that can trip us up....

I'm not always right. I'm not the Pope. By all means dispute the dimensions, but come back at me with some hard and fast evidence to show why I might be wrong. Photos of cars from the internet are not evidence of anything ( especially when they are clearly not even original Japanese market cars in the first place, or they are wearing C10 / 510 mirrors ), but if you are going to use them to back up an opinion then for heaven's sake at least use original photos of original cars from Nissan's own sales events / advertising / technical manuals etc etc as they at least might be a little closer to the source

When all is said and done, mount them where you think they look best / work best for you.

Alan T.   




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