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Turbo L28 vs 3.1 Stroker L28


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#1 Mr Camouflage

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 11:32 PM

If you had a choice between the 2 engines which one would you go with?

I hear that the power output between the 2 is about the same, and the turbo is probably cheaper to build.

The 3.1 stroker is alot more work to build.

Gav I wanna hear your reasons for building a stroker.

#2 gav240z

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 12:11 AM

Well first off I've been in a stroker L28 powered Z and it was crazy :D .

Other reasons are for insurance once they hear turbo they go silly.
Especially being under 25.

The stroker isn't a common build in Australia I wanted to do something different and I couldn't get over how fast it was. I had read years ago about norm's 12 second SU powered Z and though yeah whatever. However after seeing how quick you can build then on SU's alone i was hooked.

It might seem expensive but by the time you've bought a decent turbo and ECU + injectors, ignition controller etc.. your basically looking at minimum 8k to build a decent motor.

I also think the stroker will be more reliable and not so tempermental. I won't be troubleshooting an EFI set up. Which i am getting better with but I think a carb'd Z can only have so many things go wrong.

The SOUND yes it's a key factor a screaming L28 over a wooshing L28 :).

How much neater your engine bay is , i like the clean polished look of the stroker vs the turbo plumbing etc..

I still might build the L28 Turbo but for now this is enough and it should yield enough power for me to be happy. :D

#3 Zeddophile

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 05:35 PM

The power output may be the same, but I suspect the torque curves would be vastly different.....

#4 Huw

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 08:43 PM

dreaming of either of the two at the moment, turbo would be a lot of fun, had heard with the stroker that drivability goes a little up the creek, is this true?
Costa's stroker is a beauty though.

would be fun to build an all nissan/datsun turbo set up mind you.
love the www.240z.id.au turbo setup.

still, being only 20 any mod will kill my insurance :evil:

Does anyone know about direct ignition?

#5 gav240z

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 11:58 PM

As in no distributor?
I saw a Z at the Nationals with it done, it certainly would help with your ignition curve your not limited by weights and advance mechanisms.

I've driven Costa's Z before it was really smooth wasn't what i'd call undrivable except at that stage he was running standard brakes and they were not working very well. (Long story), he's since upgraded to Z32 Calipers and he was pretty wrapped about it.

I think what affects drivability most is how far you go with port work and your camshaft profile.

Your correct Simon's Z at www.240z.id.au is great however not within my budget. I always think that if your gonna do something you do it once and do it properly.

I want to see just how good we can build an L28 N/A with tripple carbs and if I'm not happy later I'll build it into a stroker turbo :twisted: .

However after the motor is done i'd like to do other things like an LSD , definately body work so i can install my bullet mirrors, a nice set of expensive racing seats :).

So yeah turbo's are a long way away for me. :evil:

#6 thehelix112

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 03:24 PM

Guys,

I just drove my turbo L28 for the first time yesterday. Haven't tuned it at all yet so its running very rich (10.2:1 on boost). A little bit of background, was running an SC14 supercharger on the L28 (F54/P90 L28ET engine) producing a whopping 5psi boost in draw through carby setup.

As I drove it yesterday is as I mentioned in introduction: autronic, gt35r, front mount etc. Now I've never driven a 3.1 stroker L but some general N/A vs turbo comments are warranted here I suppose:

You need more details to make any form of comparisons. A 3.1L with a standard cam isn't going to move quicker than a turbo L28 with 20psi, nor is a mild boost L28 (like one on 5psi) going to beat an 3.1L.

Horses for courses. If you are happy with carbs and are chasing a realistic power figure (300-350hp say) then there is no reason an 3.1L wouldn't do wonders. A properly built turbo L28 however will have much more outright potential.

FYI my L28 with GT35R is about as laggy as a standard FJ20. :)

Dave

#7 Toecutter

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 08:51 PM

hmmm...Gav I remember you once mentioned you saw an L28ET at a wrecking yard!? From my understanding the only way to get one with all the right gear is from an imported car? If you've got a P90 head, F54 block and flat tops can you just add a turbo to that set up? Can someone explain the best way to go about the turbo set up for an L28 in Australia.

So how did you come across your motor Helix12?

Looking at some other forums I've noticed that there seem to be quite a bit of the L28ET 's in US wrecking yards. If this is the case how expensive would it be to ship one of these over to Australia? What about Japan, are they just about extinct there or plentiful?

Sorry about all the questions guys but you've got me thinking about this set up because the time is nearing for me to do some work to my car engine wise.

#8 thehelix112

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:37 AM

Toecutter,

You can add a turbo to any setup. Bloke in SA (BensDR30 on ozdat forum) is running 7psi quite happily through his standard L28. F54/P90 block with flat top pistons gives you 8.4:1 compression vs with turbo/early-L28 dished pistons: 7.38:1 compression.

The turbo 280zx was never sold here, hence all L28ET engines are imports I believe. Stand to be corrected though. In the USA they DID sell the turbo 280zx so they're a lot easier to come by over there.

Depends how much power you are after and how much effort you are willing to put in. If you're going to rebuild it anyway, I don't see why you couldn't just run a normal L28 block and head with forged pistons to get the desired compression.

I got my L28ET in a private sale (didn't know it was F54/P90 at the time) so I just got lucky there.

Dave

#9 Natez

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 02:14 AM

Be wary these are my opinions:

In my opinion, if you are going to go L28et, unless you have a L28et already done i don't see the point in using it, Personally id go a Rb25det setup, as its already turbo, hella newer engine, yes i know you have to make new mounts get everything engineerd, but is the same thing with L28et, and L31 as your going to get brakes, suspension and a tougher rearend anyway.

The L28et will need new manifolds, computer, injectors, and a host of other little bits which arn't as easily obtained as Rb25 parts, that you just go to a jap performance place, and asked for a HKS manifold, or a Power FC computer, or a list of other bits and peices,

unless you get a L28et thats done less than 150ksor a rebuilt motor with a stock or better turbo, and all the wiring for less than 3k Id say go for it, but it will cost you more money in the end to get most power, as to get power out of the L28 and run reliably you need internal engine work for oil galleries and for heating as well, also stronger head parts as well. so the costs just rise and rise

as lets face it if your going turbo, its a power race, so you'll want that sort of power meaning over200rwkw, in the end its better to spend the 3500 outright and get the better engine and box +the 1kfor mounts etc, then start with the L28et,

In my opinion on L31s, fantastic motor if they are eithr tripple webbered (time consuming tuning every weekend or so) or if its injected multiple throttled, will cost a few k, in the end to be drivable and not to be playing with every weekend. but good sides is won't need to be engineererd as par Victoria, and most states, so 1 good side, and

the Turbo has more potential than the L31, will get more power out of it, but realistic and responsive power might be on the same area, as getting the right torque curves etc,

All in all its each to there own, like myself i'm going RB25de NEO in my 260z, with multiple throttles, because at the end of the day, im after maximum response not outright power, as the Z is a corner car for me not a straight line and want a newer technology motor and also something a bit differant

But no one can say that the L31 won't sound the best,

hope i don't get flamed,

PS: Gav, by the time everything falls into place for your motor, you'll be 24-25 anyway so wats the differance

also back to the tread, id go L31 over L28et personally due to above reasons

#10 thehelix112

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 01:39 AM

Awesome post Natez. No flamage coming from my direction. :) It IS down to personal opinion/preference indeed. There are any number of ways to get decent power for a zed and we each favour one and I'm sure we can each carry-on about why our personal preference is the best til the cows come home.

I went the L28ET route. I've also spent over 10K in doing so, but then, I wanted it done properly, and I wanted something I could learn on, so it suited me nicely. Plus there is the rarity factor, you don't see too many turbo-L powered zeds, or any car for that matter.

Your point about L28ETs requiring new manifolds, computers, injectors etc is true, assuming you want more than the standard bits can supply. It all depends how far you want to go I guess. If you are chasing a lot of grunt you will want that in any case.

Did I hear tell that Costa has a running L31? I'd be keen to have a look.. bah who am I kidding.. I want a ride. :) Will trade you for a ride in mine once its tuned? :D

Dave

#11 Natez

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 03:15 AM

Im happy that you understood the point to my post dave, fact is everyone has got a Z car because they are unique, and most of that uniqueness in every Z car, im also happy you read the whole post didn't realise how long it was


My point being with the manifolds is being if you are getting a stock L series turbo stuff, they are alot more retricting that stock Rb25 parts, meaning your going to have to make custom stuff alot earlier with the L series power process than you would with a Rb25. and alos Rb25 stuff is easier to obtain, multiple throtles off a GTR, or a turbo manifold, easy $450 HKS, just easier IMO, also with the gearbox situation, as if your running over 200rwkw a Stocker L series 5spd ain't going to like the torgue put though the rear wheels if you are looking at semi slicks, and a good clutch etc, as gears will be breaking like every week,so a R33 gearbox and a custom bellhousing would be in line as well,

Ive been in a Jacks L28et and it does go extremly well, no doubt about that, he had to change to R33 box as well, and is a awesome car it is, And i'll be just as excited to see your setup in your car,

Whats your setup, what have you done to the motor etc, etc and gearbox setup also, sounds like a awesome car, also does the P510

Also costas L31, looks stock as a rock from the outside, still running the Su's as well,

and as you said dave we can carry on about personal perferance about every little part of the Zs untill cows come home.

#12 thehelix112

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 12:52 PM

Natez,

Forgive me for doing this but I CBF writing it all again so I'll just copy and paste it in. Yeah.. my engine looks stock from the outside too... :? :D
Jack put a RB25DET box onto the back of his zed? Methinks I need to have a chat with him, does anyone have contact details?



Guys,

I have a navy blue 240Z that I purchased from a friend of a friend.

Originally brought with blown head-gasket I drove it with the stock L24 and flat-top SUs ( :( ) until the SUs decided to develop a flatspot from between 1% and 80% throttle. Holding the throttle anywhere inbetween those two resulted in massive overfueling, a black plume of smoke three lanes wide on the freeway, half a rear muffler and a subsequent police detective motivated pull-over.

After several trips to Ballarat going 100->110, clutch, roll, repeat, I sourced a supercharged L28 replacement. After some clutch dramas during the install I drove the car like this for 6 months or so while I gathered together parts for a turbo conversion.

Then 6 months ago (ok so it might be more than 6 months), after breaking the gear selector linkage on the 280z 5-speed in there I took the car off the road to do the conversion.

Details:

Car:
Model: 240Z
Year: 1973
Colour: BMW Navy Blue (crows feeted to hell)
Front bar: Not standard (?)

Engine:
L28: Block F54, Head P90
Compression: 7.4:1
Cam: Crow #58643 Intake: 212 deg 0.075" dur, 0.480" lift, Exhaust: 210 deg 0.075" dur, 0.495" lift
Pistons: Standard
Rods: Standard
Crank: Standard
Displacement: 2753cc (Standard).
Oil cooling: Earls thermostat to 235x147x50mm Serck cooler.
Balancer: Custom Chris Wood built using BMW Inline 6 balancer.

Driveline: *cough*
Gearbox: FS5C71A *cough*
Clutch: 5-puck ceramic with 1100kg pressure plate
Diff: Standard R180 *cough*
Driveshafts: Standard *cough*
Tailshaft: Custom using oversided hardy spicer joints.

Fuel System:
Tank: Standard
Lift pump: Carter 110gph
Surge: CM510 alloy around 1-2 litres
EFI pump: Bosch 044
Fuel feed line: dash-8 (1/2" ID) line
Fuel rail: custom
Injectors: 460cc N/A S5 RX7
Regulator: Bosch adjustable rising rate

Control/Ignition:
Type: EFI - fully sequential injection
Computer: Autronic SMC v 1.91
Distributor: Custom hall-effect
Leads: Sorcher 8mm induction
Coil: Bosch 716HEC transformer type
Ignition Module: Bosch

Induction:
Manifold: Standard 280zx EFI
Throttle body: Ford XF 65mm
Piping: 2.5" stainless
Intercooler: ARE 520x300x90 bar and plate
Turbocharger: 620hp Garrett GT35R (0.82 turbine housing)

Exhaust:
Manifold: Custom Ian Rowlerson: stainless, tigged, tuned length, split pulse collector, external wastegate flange
External wastegate: Sub-zero 55mm
Exhaust: 3" mandrel bent mild dumper to 2.5" press bent street system and 3" side exit race system. 2.5" screamer off wastegate

Suspension and Wheels:
Springs: Lowered Kings progressive all round
Shocks: Gabriel POS, don't ask my why.
Sway bars: Whiteline adjustables all round
Wheels: 14x6 dealer option `jelly beans'.
Tyres: 195/75R14 Pirelli P400s

Fairly obviously the driveline will need some serious work in the very near future. I have a 4.4:1 R200 sitting there waiting to go in and plan on a RB25DET gearbox.

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#13 thehelix112

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 12:58 PM

Oh and I completely agree that making an RB25 quick will be much easier than making a turbo L quick. Though really, the only major difference is in manifolds yes? L28ET manifolds (while not easy to come by - hence my using a L28E one :( ) aren't overly restrictive (244rwkw from simon's and god knows how much from Jack's). And for the cost of a HKS/jap-brand manifold you could get a locally built custom one I'm sure.

Oh look at me.. I'm talking about my personal preference as if it was the only/best way to do things.. :oops:

#14 Natez

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 08:13 PM

looks fantastic,

Ive never seen a turbo in that position before,


i beleive jack got a custom bellhousing from sydney, you can contact him on email yatzka@hotmail.com not sure if hed use that email, but contact via msn and he will be on during the day at work etc...

Also you'll break Uni's all day long with decent tyres, so either a 280zx turbo CV setup will be great, or a more custom R32 rear end...

#15 thehelix112

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 09:26 PM

Natez,

I've been chasing R200 280ZX axles for a while (not overly hard mind you) but am shortly going to start breaking things I fear (only running 10psi at the moment). I'll definitely have a chat to Jack about it. Thanks for that.

I've never seen the turbo put in that position either. The exhaust manifold is awesome (Ian Rowlerson of Rowlerson Tig Welding - Warragul) It was built by him for his race car then he decided to go a supercharged 1UZ. Mad bugger.

Dave

#16 Zeddophile

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 07:33 PM

I'd say he positioned it there, because there wasn't anywhere else to put it :P By the time you put all the exhaust manifold runners in, at equal length, the turbo has to just go wherever it can in a zed engine bay :P

And speaking of exhaust manifolds, i got my 6 into 1 extractors last weekend, going to stick them on this weekend :twisted:

#17 gav240z

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 02:18 AM

Natez,

I've been chasing R200 280ZX axles for a while (not overly hard mind you) but am shortly going to start breaking things I fear (only running 10psi at the moment). I'll definitely have a chat to Jack about it. Thanks for that.

I've never seen the turbo put in that position either. The exhaust manifold is awesome (Ian Rowlerson of Rowlerson Tig Welding - Warragul) It was built by him for his race car then he decided to go a supercharged 1UZ. Mad bugger.

Dave


Jack has a set of 280zx Turbo CV's ready to go into a Z as long as your running an R200. If I was running an R200 i would have bought them myself.

The turbo position is pretty wild I like the idea. Good thing you moved the water bottle though otherwise you'd have melt it :twisted:

#18 Natez

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 03:10 AM

1uz is also one of my options, but i really prefer to keep the car n/a inline 6, just because thats they way i want my car, and im not after all out power, just good n/a response

#19 Zeddophile

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 05:47 PM

Water bottle? Isn't it the battery on that side? Or are 240's different to 260's.....

#20 gav240z

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 08:01 PM

Your right battery LOL.

Well i guess that would be even worse now wouldn't it :evil: .




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