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Alternative fuels for our classic cars.


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#21 Hunter

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 09:08 PM

Electric in Tassie would be Enviro friendly. We only run on Wind and Hydro power except for the odd occassion when the coal plant is fired up.

With technology how it is now Nuclear is the way to go. The only thing that comes out of them is water vapour. As long as the nuclear waste is dumped deep underground in an old mine or purpose built underground storage. WHO CARES.

Bring on the Hydrogen I say. It is made from water H2O they split it and you have hydrogen gas which is one of the most explosive gases out there and oxygen for it to burn.
When Hydrogen burns in a combustion engine it just turns back to H2O.
Someone just needs to invent a Hydrogen conversion for cars and the fuel companies need to replace petrol with Hydrogen.

The above would be just too easy and as long has Mr. BP is making money things will stay the same.

I am only going to be alive for another 50 odd years and things are pristine down here in Tassie. After that I am GOING TO BE DEAD FOR A VERY LONG TIME. So I will continue burning Petrol.

#22 fufu

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 08:33 AM

Does anyone watch topgear? I'm literally going to quote it from them.

Honda has already made a hydrogen powered car.

The problem at the moment is the infrastructure. How do we store large volumes of hydrogen? how do we pressurize it so we can fill up our fuel tanks? Those are the problem at the moment.

One small leak... and we can have a disaster... like those refineries which were on fire in the early 90's but quicker... 1 big bang... as it only needs a partnered element of o2 to react and with the added heat of the first reaction the rest is like a chain reaction. This can open up to terrorism... a.k.a. Al-qaeda or even Emirates nation when they feel that we won't buy petrol.

This technology has been around for sometime. I suggest youtubing stuff like hydrogen weld... basically shows hydrogen welding. Now this has been around for at least 5 years and the reason why it isn't endorsed is because of the big bang it could cause.





#23 NZeder

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 10:36 AM

Well having just a finished a weekend (as pit crew) for a targa race team we all agree for a real alternative to appear on the market we need to have no oil left - so we are doing our part by owning fuel hungry classic sports cars, and race cars and the like. So we are trying to help by burning up as much as we can ;D

#24 xii

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 12:32 PM

Not just storing it safely, theres also the problem of creating the hydrogen such that it makes sense to move away from oil. Methods used commercially to produce hydrogen are really inefficient and expensive right now. They either create the same amount of emissions as, or more than, their petroleum equivalents either because of the massive amounts of electricity(from our aging coal fired plants..) they consume, or simply because it is a by-product of the chemical reactions used.

Not that im against hydrogen cell cars, I just think all these hurdles to put hydrogen cells into practical use stem from the lack of commitment and funding to research and development from governments and corporations. Aerospace and IT technology has improved by leaps and bounds yet cars are still using the same combustion engine invented in prehistoric ages. Yea we invented EFI, variable valve technology and cylinders that switch off when not required... but its still burning fuel pushing our pistons...

We've seen prototype fuel cell/electric cars from so many manufacturers for ages.. I think whats been lacking is the economical and political will to go in that direction..

#25 benny

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 11:28 AM

check this out i wouldn't put in a zed but it looks alright..

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=0FD1KLIZCAQ

proven to give you 61% more gas mileage


Ben

#26 tbscobraZ

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 05:42 PM

This is my fav topic and a great thread. There isnt a problem as far as i know because the car industry is very, very far ahead in terms of going green. There are so many people out there working on alternative fuels for cars, I have read and heard about most and the best possible solution at the moment is a direct replacement fuel that isnt going to destory your engine. It also has to offer the same sort of performance. There isnt a shortage of alternatives and word on the wire is they are working on a fuel that is a chemical mix between butanol and ethanol so invest in a distilling company and relax.

#27 stevo_gj

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 09:06 PM

check this out i wouldn't put in a zed but it looks alright..

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=0FD1KLIZCAQ

proven to give you 61% more gas mileage


Ben


Firstly let me say I am no expert in fuel alternatives, I just wanted to give my opinion on this. Take everything I say with a grain of salt and please don't think I'm attacking you in any way.

That youtube video you posted had me intrigued so I did a little digging to see if I could find any other reviews of the product. Maybe I'm just bad at googling but all i found were discussion boards like ours with everyone wanting someone else to try it and see if it worked. Apart from that news report there is very little evidence to suggest that it works. The whole 'hydrogen fuel cell' scam has been around for years and there have been several successful lawsuits against the providers of such fake technology.

I'm going to straight up copy a post someone made in the american Smart Car enthusiasts forum, cbf rewriting the info in it. The poster is very aggressive about stating that it is a scam, but he makes some valid points:

http://www.smartcaro...460/index2.html

Posted by Fredvon4:

"

Agent99

I know we all want to believe there is a magic pill...

There is no conspiracy from Oil companies to buy up all the patents on 100MPG carburators... or any other MPH or fuel efficiency device...myths abound all around us

Major vehicle manufacturers and all other industries that require internal combustion motors have a significant desire to gain the maximum possible fuel efficiency and they R&D every conceivable method, device, or process

Hospitals, and hundreds of other industrial users, require long life super fuel efficient power packs to provide Electricity, water pumping, barge and boat power... there are many times more users out there then just us car owners.... everybody is seeking maximum effeciency....

If any one ever finds it...this will be Global News ...not some BS story on one local station...

Here in lies why this is a BS story... taking a big pig truck from 9 MPG to 23 MPG is so significant that every farmer, construction foreman, delivery van, hot shot driver, and 20 million other heavy truck owners and users would be all over this in a micro second...if there was even a shred of truth to that level of increased MPG... wait time for the product would be longer then getting a smart car

There is only so much energy to be extracted from a gallon of ANY fuel

There is NO device to make a 9 MPG vehicle suddenly get 23 MPG or even the 16 MPG they calim... it is not physically possible IMO...That is unless your 9 MPG was a malfunctioning vehicle... but no.... they claim the 9mpg was AFTER new oil, clean air filter and proper tire inflation

plus if you do the math they are inept there too.... 9 MPG vs 16 MPG is what ratio of change?....hint if you were 10 MPG and now are at 20 MPG that is doubling... or 100% better MPG.... so 9 vs 16 is more like 80% better and 9 vs 23 is well over 100% better... simple mistakes like this make me think BS instantly

Every motor tuner and hot rod freak like me knows you can add all sorts of chemicals and some will give you more power...Like Nitrous Oxide or Propane...but MPG never goes up it goes down because more gas is needed also to supply the new high power capability

RE Hydro 4000 some sort of scheme to produce Hydrogen gas (explosive) from H2O and then add it to the fuel steam...

Another hint that this is a bogus product is...... the web site claims you can get 1800 gallons of Hydrogen from 1 gallon of water... think about that for a second... All gasses are measured in cubic feet not gallons... second water is a combination of Hydrogen and Oxygen (1 part Hydrogen and 2 parts Oxygen) the process of breaking the bond is not easy or energy free.... but even when you break it you do not yield that much CF from 1/3rd the liquid volume..... but hey I am NOT a chemist so maybe I am wrong in this liquid to gas logic......BUT I do not need to be a chemist to know you can NOT get 1800 Gallons of anything from 1 gallon of something...not even expanding foam"



So currently I believe that it is a scam, but if someone else has any proof otherwise I would be very interested!




#28 Rhino73z

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:11 AM

More on the ethanol debate……

Here is quote for CAR magazine April 2008, article…’GM to make brass from muck’.  If the science described in this article is sound and robust, it puts a lot of holes in the current unviable ethanol debate!

“Making ethanol requires specific crops, which pushes up the price of food – there isn’t enough land to grow all the crops we need. Coskata has patented strains of bacteria that can make ethanol by fermenting slurry made from domestic waste, and even old tyres. Unlike similar cellulosic ethanol, Coskata’s bacteria don’t need to be tailored to the stuff they’re fermenting and they’re hugely efficient.
Making petrol produces one unit of energy for every one it consumes; regular ethanol about 1.4; but Coskata’s process produces 7.7, and use less than a gallon of water to make a gallon of ethanol – other processes need four. Well-to-wheel CO2 emissions are down 84 percent compared with petrol. All for a buck a gallon.”


#29 benny

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:49 AM

any one watch today tonight (tonight being monday)??

a guy has made is own hydrogen/petrol hybrid.

2 falcons were compared same motor etc for 100k's side by side the straight petrol used just over 20 litres per 100k and the hydrogen/petrol used only 5 litres.

the guys said they made it for only a few 100 dollars...

its not a scam


Ben

#30 Hunter

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 09:17 AM

Does anyone watch topgear? I'm literally going to quote it from them.

Honda has already made a hydrogen powered car.

The problem at the moment is the infrastructure. How do we store large volumes of hydrogen? how do we pressurize it so we can fill up our fuel tanks? Those are the problem at the moment.

One small leak... and we can have a disaster... like those refineries which were on fire in the early 90's but quicker... 1 big bang... as it only needs a partnered element of o2 to react and with the added heat of the first reaction the rest is like a chain reaction. This can open up to terrorism... a.k.a. Al-qaeda or even Emirates nation when they feel that we won't buy petrol.

This technology has been around for sometime. I suggest youtubing stuff like hydrogen weld... basically shows hydrogen welding. Now this has been around for at least 5 years and the reason why it isn't endorsed is because of the big bang it could cause.





Yes seen that hydrogen car on top gear.

Hydrogen would be stored and used in our cars much like LPG is now. If there was a conversion kit availible and the fuel stations stocked it.

LPG vs Hydrogen

REASON 1.
LEL (Lower Explosive Limit) LPG= 5% in air  Hydrogen= 4%
(What this means is 4% hydrogen needs to mix with air to be explosive compared to 5% for LPG)
UEL (Upper Explosive Limit) LPG= 15% in air  Hydrogen = 74%

Anywhere above and below the LEL and UEL and the substances will not explode.

Hydrogen is more explosive over a greater range therfore could be considered more dangerous. But the LEL's are basically the same.

REASON 2.
LPG is a by product of crude oil refinment, lines the pockets of the oil companies and is readily availible from this process.




#31 modular9

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 09:22 AM

I watched the today tonight thing but here was the rub.
- The water/hydro/petrol car was a stock falcon.
- The car they were up against was an XR6 falcon.

Of course the XR6 is going to use more fuel.
If it wasnt a xr6 falcon and it was just a falcon with xr6 parts on it then what other parts did the owner install. sorry but you cant just show 2 white falcons and tell them to do 100 km and we'll measure which one is better.

That said. I still think it is a great idea. It obviously works. But a better comparison would be like for like.

Lastly : one word - Roswell. I am putting all my faith in alien technology.  ;D

#32 XRQTR

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 10:06 AM

I watched the today tonight thing but here was the rub.
- The water/hydro/petrol car was a stock falcon.
- The car they were up against was an XR6 falcon.

Of course the XR6 is going to use more fuel.
If it wasnt a xr6 falcon and it was just a falcon with xr6 parts on it then what other parts did the owner install. sorry but you cant just show 2 white falcons and tell them to do 100 km and we'll measure which one is better.

That said. I still think it is a great idea. It obviously works. But a better comparison would be like for like.

Lastly : one word - Roswell. I am putting all my faith in alien technology.  ;D


They are essentially the same car, being weight and engine capacity, any difference in power would be negligable when you take into account the difference in consumption considering they are both pretty much stock standard cars.

The converted car used just 5 litres to travel the 100k's which would equate to approximately 1200k's from a full tank, anyone that knows these cars knows that around 400-500k's is about the norm from a tank of petrol (taking into account it was a highway cruise). So that then means that they have made the vehicle 200% more efficient in burning the fuel when compared to non Hydrogen additive burn rate.

Sorry but you can do it the way they did and still have a relevant result, had there only been a 2-3 litre difference in consumption I would agree with you that the XR6 has a slightly more powerful engine and that would have been what I would expect. In this case the converted car used only one quarter of the fuel for the same trip at the same time, this is a huge difference.

#33 JP240z

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 01:29 PM

2 falcons were compared same motor etc for 100k's side by side the straight petrol used just over 20 litres per 100k and the hydrogen/petrol used only 5 litres.


Why was the standard xr6 furl consumption so high? should be about 11L/100km.
There is no difference between motors in xt falcons and xr6 falcons, the main difference is gearbox ratios.


#34 XRQTR

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:27 PM

Why was the standard xr6 furl consumption so high? should be about 11L/100km.
There is no difference between motors in xt falcons and xr6 falcons, the main difference is gearbox ratios.


You may want to relook at your response champ, there is a huge difference between the two models, one is an EB single overhead cam tractor motor the other is a BA double overhead cam, did you actually watch the show?? they used two EB Falcons.

#35 JP240z

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:19 PM

Yeh sorry I didnt watch it I just figured they were using BA/BF.
Assumption killed the cat.

#36 Hunter

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:31 PM

TO ASSUME makes an ASS of U and ME


;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

#37 Zedman240®

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 07:52 PM

Best answer to what assumptions can lead to was from a movie that I can't remember;

Assumptions are the mother of all f$#@ ups!

And my answer to the electric Zed, you just have to be 1/10th the size you are now to enjoy guilt free Z enjoyment...

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#38 tbscobraZ

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 04:31 PM

Biomass or something between butanol and ethanol im willing to put money on it.

#39 Hunter

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 04:36 AM

FOUND THIS ON EBAY.

IT IS A Nissan 240Z Hydrogen Fuel Cell US$1011.75 + P&H

http://cgi.ebay.com/...sspagenameZWDVW

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