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Alternative fuels for our classic cars.


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#1 gav240z

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:01 AM

Hi everyone,
I've been thinking alot lately about alternative fuels and our classic cars. While electric engines are cool, they lack the lovely noise we all love about our Zcars.

Eventually when the oil reserves dry up (or hopefully before they do we all convert to Greener energy). I came across this today which seems like the perfect solution to old classics.

http://www.bioperfor...nol_answers.php

What do others think? And what would be required to prepare a L-series engine to take this kind of fuel?

It mentions in the article that it would be best suited to EFI turbo set up's. Seems like a good arguement to go turbo on a street driven Z.

#2 XRQTR

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 07:40 AM

You'd have to be nuts to use any ethanol blended fuels, they destroy carburettors as well as corrode the hard fuel lines and cause corrosion inside the tanks. If you drive the car daily it won't happen as quickly but if like most on here you drive the car only occasionly then you can cause damage to your fuel system because you're allowing this to sit in your tank and lines and carby for long periods.

It actually attracts water and holds it but will seperate so will also add to poor performance, they say injection is best mainly because unlike a fuel bowl in a carby it doesn't hold the fuel so won't/shouldn't cause as much damage to at least the front part of your fuel system.

A mate of mine over the weekend at Heathcote told me he uses Shell 100 which is an ethanol blended fuel in his drag car, they use ethanol to raise the RON rating, I told him he was nuts but then he said he flushes it all out after a meeting. He left it in their once and found that it made some of the components inside the carby go soft and actually had to rebuild the carby, this was after leaving it in their once and this is a purpose built drag car so doesn't get used much so like most of the cars on here sits around for extended periods.

Keep in mind that it's the sugar cane industry in particular that is making a big push for this alternative fuel to be increased in the blends as they are the new OPEC and it won't be long before we see the cane growers of FNQ driving around in Bugatis and the like. Ethanol was meant to decrease the price of petrol, so far United is the only chain of servos that sell the blended fuels at a lower rate.

#3 modular9

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 09:09 AM

Take the datsun shell off the datsun chassis  then take the toyota prius body off the prius chassis then swap them over. So now you take the dat-ius to the hole in the wall and charge it up. j/k  ;D

However. Seriously has anyone done a study on the environmental impact of the production of these "clean and plentiful " fuels ? What about the extra coal needed to burn if we all suddenly switched to electric cars?

Even if we go back to horses ( flares on the side and watanabe Horse shoes FTW ! ) the emissions from the "exhaust" as well as the "byproducts" are also harmful.

We are all going to hell. At least we all go in a datsun !

#4 NZeder

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 11:13 AM

I work for a crop protection company so I have heard the CEO speeches a few times now.

This statement was made before all this talk about Ethanol based fuels etc and this demand will only make matter worse.

"There is not enough arable land on the earth to feed the growing population, so technologies in crop protection is about increasing the yield in the good land we have."

Or something like that. Now if the demand for sugar based crops for ethanol production is more $$ to the farmers then guess what they will do - stop growing food and start growing fuel. I believe this is happening already in South America.

Also we have seen the price of our raw materials go up and up in the last 12-24 months so that also does not help the situation. One of the main reasons for the increase in raw materials is believe it or not the Olympics in China. Most the raw tech ingredient's come out of China and with their Government trying to clean the air etc they have forced the closer of number of the plants that supply this raw tech. So the demand for the food/plant based fuel and now limited supply of the tech = increase price for the raw tech = increase in the products we sell = increase in the cost of production of crops for food or fuel = $$$$$

Man who was the bastard that invented $$.

Just look at the cost of sugar as a commodity it has increased over the last decade and looks to continue, not only does this drive up the prices of Ethanol based fuel but also the western food we eat (and more and  more of the world is moving to this type of diet good or bad) has high sugar and salt concentrations.

Ever increase circles and some one is getting very very rich in the process be it the oil barons or the soon to be sugar barons. 

#5 Toecutter

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:23 PM

Get your bikes out fellas.

Seeing everyone is getting prophetic, I reckon the end game will be it will be too expensive for some of us to drive a car to work. Public transport is becoming relied on whether you like it or not and it's happening now as alot of young families just can't afford running two cars anymore. Just wait til we go over $2.00 a liter as prices are already in some parts of remote Northern Australia as I heard on ABC national radio today.

I've heard the same issues NZeder mentioned regarding large scale crops grown as fuel sources, it's not a total solution as a huge number of people on this planet would starve. Electric cars need power, what do you use? dirty coal to twist the knife further as far as emmisions go or maybe Nuclear whether it be from local power stations to drive your elec car or futurisitc little nuclear engines like those subs that go for years???

Either way it's gonna be expensive to drive your Z, it's just a matter of how expensive and how quickly.

Personally I reckon a good idea woud be to decentralise cities so that there is less of a reliance on cars. For instance there is a huge amount of people that get in their cars and drive to the Metro Melbourne every day. If there was more focus on spreading out say corporate offices then the option might be to walk to work or jump on a bike as apposed to drive 20 or 30 km as many do.

The other option might be to take out half the world population, but maybe nature will do that for us if you believe what they say these days!?

I think I'll fit my Z out to that Flinstones style, just cut the floor out and your off! Just think instead of sneaking a peak under the hood you'll be looking at how big peoples calves are! ;D

Sulio

Oh BTW Steff they do address the question of corrosion on that website:

Can the use of E85 Bio Ethanol or a mixture cause corrosion problems with rubber and aluminium components?
No.

Today, the cause of many corrosion problems in rubber and aluminium components is the lack of constant preventive maintenance and adulterated fuel, that is, fuels that contain a blend of water, chlorine and solvent. This affects the system very badly and can be the origin of failures and increased consumption that can result in serious car problems. The clean, non adulterated Bio Ethanol (E100) will not cause any corrosion problem; it will only reduce the parts lubrication, therefore, we must add petroleum to Bio Ethanol (E85) to avoid these problems.



#6 gav240z

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:39 PM

Also we have seen the price of our raw materials go up and up in the last 12-24 months so that also does not help the situation. One of the main reasons for the increase in raw materials is believe it or not the Olympics in China. Most the raw tech ingredient's come out of China and with their Government trying to clean the air etc they have forced the closer of number of the plants that supply this raw tech. So the demand for the food/plant based fuel and now limited supply of the tech = increase price for the raw tech = increase in the products we sell = increase in the cost of production of crops for food or fuel = $$$$$

Man who was the bastard that invented $$.

Ever increase circles and some one is getting very very rich in the process be it the oil barons or the soon to be sugar barons. 


Perhaps we need communism after all? :)

I think there are many alternative fuels we can use. Its just that gasoline has been "perfected" over a very long period of time. Ethanol seems like a very suitable replacement for older vehicles, but I honestly think electric is the way to go for modern motoring.

Jay Leno loves the electric car - so it must be good :).
http://www.popularme...ge/4215940.html

http://www.jaylenosg...html?vid=229378

But remember Electricity can be generated by a number of eco-friendly sources. The ocean waves, the sun, wind farms. At my place back home in OZ, my mum has fitted out the place with solar panels and she says at times she's producing more power than she is using and gets credited for it.

So if we charged our electric car under that system, no problems.

#7 Lynton

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 07:44 PM

I think we just need a laptop and we should all work from home!
Turn the office buildings into apartments for the the skilled migrant engineers and IT staff coming in from overseas. That would make the roads less congested so we can keep on driving and enjoying our Zeds. Let's get our priories right!!
Lynton

#8 biggels240z

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:29 PM

Ive often use the shell racing which is cut with ethanol and havent had any problems ive used it on and off from the time it was first released and havent had a problem , the cars done probably 25 000 ks since then and still no problems with the fuel lines or carbys! just my experience! Make the car go a lot better idle jumps by abour 200revs and have heaps more power throughout the rev range!!!



#9 gav240z

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 10:08 PM

You'd have to be nuts to use any ethanol blended fuels, they destroy carburettors as well as corrode the hard fuel lines and cause corrosion inside the tanks. If you drive the car daily it won't happen as quickly but if like most on here you drive the car only occasionly then you can cause damage to your fuel system because you're allowing this to sit in your tank and lines and carby for long periods.

It actually attracts water and holds it but will seperate so will also add to poor performance, they say injection is best mainly because unlike a fuel bowl in a carby it doesn't hold the fuel so won't/shouldn't cause as much damage to at least the front part of your fuel system.

A mate of mine over the weekend at Heathcote told me he uses Shell 100 which is an ethanol blended fuel in his drag car, they use ethanol to raise the RON rating, I told him he was nuts but then he said he flushes it all out after a meeting. He left it in their once and found that it made some of the components inside the carby go soft and actually had to rebuild the carby, this was after leaving it in their once and this is a purpose built drag car so doesn't get used much so like most of the cars on here sits around for extended periods.

Keep in mind that it's the sugar cane industry in particular that is making a big push for this alternative fuel to be increased in the blends as they are the new OPEC and it won't be long before we see the cane growers of FNQ driving around in Bugatis and the like. Ethanol was meant to decrease the price of petrol, so far United is the only chain of servos that sell the blended fuels at a lower rate.


I won't argue with you about any of the points you mention as I've not had any first hand experience with the stuff, but if you watch this video (granted it promoting the use of Ethanol). You will see that the opposite appears to be true:



It wouldn't surprise me if either side crop / fuel industry were twisting stories for their own advantage, but if a fuel burns greener and produces more power that's a good thing to me.



There are many more cool videos on youtube.com just type in Ethanol :).

#10 gav240z

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 01:41 AM

Jay Leno has a couple of articles worth a read on alternative fuels.

http://www.popularme...ge/4261712.html

http://www.popularme...ge/4237807.html

#11 zedevan

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 07:11 AM

Sulio, have you been reading the melbourne 2030 stuff??? as thats exactly what they are trying to do. I dont completely understand it though, as even people who do not work in the city often drive a fair way to get to work

One thing they desperately need to do where I live is build the doncaster rail project. it is completely stupid that this was never done as it was pretty much always planned to happen! that way more people could use the surrounding train lines which are already running at their maximum during peak times, and it would help with the "parking issue" thats at train stations. even though some smart people think all thats needed is more car parks!

Apparently taco bill has been affected because of the alternative uses of corn :(
http://knowledge.wpc...?articleid=1416

#12 Toecutter

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 09:08 AM

Sulio, have you been reading the melbourne 2030 stuff??? as thats exactly what they are trying to do. I dont completely understand it though, as even people who do not work in the city often drive a fair way to get to work


No I have'nt read anything about it but it just seems like a practical solution and of course getting public transport working properly is also a bit of a no brainer when you consider the 8 billion or so the Vic government is looking at spending on tunnels and building and wideneing roads. Instead of dredging the bay opening up more shipping in say the Geelong area and freight it down rather than use trucks in the CBD area. Laverton and the west near the bridge is the area of most Melb industry any way so the frieght trains would get a pretty good run.

Anyhow I'm steearing away from the topic now. Those vids above are pretty interesting re the engnie pull down and performance of the 85% blend. So is it readily available in Aust in the concentration?

Sulio

#13 modular9

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 09:31 AM

just a link to something

http://forums.hybrid...ad.php?t=132837

And for you fellas not a member of hybridz here is a piccy from the thread.

Plus check out the youtubes further down his page ( wheel spin ? )

http://ampeater.wordpress.com/

I was rather impressed. Still needs some fuel etc but ridiculous amount of milage.

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#14 Rhino73z

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:19 PM

It amazes me to read the heated topics about running alternative fuels…..it will destroy engines….it will send prices sky rocketing.  Why is there such as resistance to change?  Personally I think we have a very exciting future in front of us, after all, think of the possibilities we currently have now….ethanol/methanol fuel, hybrids, electric, hydrogen, solar, etc.  I think ethanol blend fuels will be the future in the short term, until the viability of hydrogen or electric.  And before I hear any moans about it destroying engines, here is an example of what we can achieve now…
Quote from Holden chief, Denny Mooney (http://www.abc.net.a...06/s1737335.htm)

‘Ethanol, as an example. I mean, we can run on E10 today but we have vehicles around the world that run on E85, 85 per cent ethanol. In fact, we ship Commodores to Brazil that run on 24 per cent ethanol’

If ethanol is such a bad thing, then how is Holden achieving this!  But the bigger question is why don’t we have this alternative here in Australia?

And for the second part of the argument that we can’t grow enough crops maybe this could be an alternative?

http://www.gizmodo.c...reorders-2.html

Obviously we have a few hurdles to cross as we develop new technology and we have to also accept new technologies will present new problems. But who of you out there really would prefer be riding horses than driving cars…..similar arguments where used when they where introduced!  Food for thought.


#15 RBZ 260

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:46 PM

for racing use i have mix of ethanol with premuim. and sometimes use it on the road. only prob its  hassle doing the mix. if they had 98 or 100 octane ethanol mix at the pump  ill be using it. and still save 10-15c per liter.

most of them are urban myths of this and that.

ran ethanol 95 in a pulsar 2000 model. lot smoother and more free reving.also felt it had bit more power. all i say go ethanol as long as price reflects it.

#16 XRQTR

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:34 AM

To clarify on what I put in my earlier post, the use of ethanol based fuels can be detramental to vehicles that are not driven on a regular basis as this does not evacuate the system of any contaminants such as water that may be in the fuel.

The examples I gave were those of vehicles that were not driven on a daily basis, using the vehicle on a daily basis should clean most of this out.


The clean, non adulterated Bio Ethanol (E100) will not cause any corrosion problem; it will only reduce the parts lubrication, therefore, we must add petroleum to Bio Ethanol (E85) to avoid these problems.


Exactly, this is what will make major service and even rebuilds more necessary, if they are not properly lubricated then they will need more regular servicing/replacement...................that may actually negate any savings to the environment as the parts needed to be replaced have a further effect on the environment during there own manufacture process.

It amazes me to read the heated topics about running alternative fuels…..it will destroy engines….it will send prices sky rocketing.  Why is there such as resistance to change? 


A perfect example of just what this is doing to worl prices is the current increase in oil, this can be directly linked to the fact that bio fuels are being used more and more so the dependance on oil is becoming less, they need to make there money before they become unnecessary. They can't grow sugar in the desert sands.

The way the Howard government went straight in and gave huge subsidies to certain growers to produce cane for fuel is a perfect example of just how innefficient the process actually is.

The only way they will be able to continue production after any subsidies are pulled would be to increase the price of the raw product.................... so how does that change us from our current dependancy on oil based fuels, the prices will continue to rise no matter what we use.

But remember Electricity can be generated by a number of eco-friendly sources. The ocean waves, the sun, wind farms. At my place back home in OZ, my mum has fitted out the place with solar panels and she says at times she's producing more power than she is using and gets credited for it.


It is actually possible if set up correctly to put power back into the grid at the end of every billing cycle giving you a refund, but no government would ever tell you this as they woul then have to be paying us for there own power. I know this because when I worked for a battery company years ago a couple of guys that used to buy our big "Solar Cells" explained that most set ups are just inefficent but if done correctly actually make you money.

#17 Rhino73z

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 04:55 PM

Don’t know how you make the relationship between the increase in demand for ethanol has influenced the price of oil?  It certainly has influenced the price of grain and domino into livestock prices.  Watching the economic news, the increase in oil prices  have been due to; supply not increasing, demand increasing (in particular from China and India and this doesn’t look to be curtailed in the near future), threats to the oil supply and speculators in the market predicting the demand will outstrip supply.  If you where a cynic you might start to believe that Peak Oil predictions have come true.  I think you will find it is why governments like US and Australia are subsiding ethanol to lower demand on oil and hopefully bring prices down….which is unlikely.  Either way you cut it, prices ain’t going to be cheaper, but not having an alternative will make it even more expensive.

#18 Lynton

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 05:44 PM

I reckon China, India and Russia will have to go on allocation so the world demands from all countries can be equally met.............well that's in a perfect world?
Lynton

#19 Toecutter

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 06:57 PM

Watching the economic news, the increase in oil prices  have been due to; supply not increasing, demand increasing (in particular from China and India and this doesn’t look to be curtailed in the near future), threats to the oil supply and speculators in the market predicting the demand will outstrip supply


I've heard the above also. Alot of the current high pricing is economics (uncertainty) and thats why OPEC are saying they will not pump more out. OPEC is saying the supplies are sufficient and it's only the market thats forced up the price which is great if your selling oil.

Sulio

#20 Rhino73z

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:36 PM

Here’s a prediction that oil prices will come down (from http://www.dailyreck...e-2/2008/05/30/)

“You can also anticipate that the bubble will eventually correct, but that is unlikely to happen before the recession actually reduces the demand. The rise in the price of oil and food is going to weigh and aggravate the recession.”

I think this is what they call irony?  When you are out of a job, petrol will get cheaper!  Strange lot economists.





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