240Z Still Too Cheap?

[aircobra]

i've been keeping an eye on the various 240 alternatives and have come to a conclusion that the z  is too cheap.

while people always cite early 911s and e-types as "back in the day" competition, i think the current market does not agree, with original restored 911s and 2 door e types at over 100k

the better benchmark seems to be alfa gtvs (1750) and AC/BC 124 Fiats, which were all judged as competition in both US and non US markets

good 2000 roadsters are also at 50

as far as i can tell, the "supply and demand" has in kicked for the italians and what's left on the market with the 124s at 25 and the alfa at 50.

mgb gt v8  are simply too rare to judge so leaving them out of the comparo

i had a Honda s600 and wouldn't say that's competition, but these are also over 30 now

i know that the current market is all over the place with people asking for 30-60 for a restored original, but still sounds cheap

what do the people say?

Edited February 18, 2018 by aircobra

[gilltech]

Supply and demand? Surely there are more 240Zs still around than Alfa 105, Fiats, Lotus, MGB GT etc. Not many of the 'competition' of the day ie. sports coupes in the same price bracket, have survived in meaningful numbers.

E-types and 911s are a different price bracket entirely.

[gav240z]

All depends on the variant...

 

PS30-SB seems to be in the big boys club now..as is the PS30.

 

I think HLS30's and HS30's are still too cheap, should be pulling at least $150k for good restored cars in my humble opinion! But happy for them to stay a bit cheaper for longer lol..

[aircobra]

what's the big deal with the ps30? 5 more kw then the standard L24? really?

don;t know about the stats, but always heaps of MGB GTs for sale - about the same # as the 240s

i was looking at some 105 restoration photos and i really don;t reckon they're ANY worse then the zs. and that's coming from a guy with the "top5" most rusty z on the forum

[HomeBuiltByJeff]

As someone who has most of the above, ('74 911, 71' S30, '73 105, all bought as rusty piles of junk), and I tend to agree. The Z's are no where near as cheap as they once were . The Porsche's do have the cache of the brand, which will always prop up the prices, like it or not. They were also over 3 times the price of the Z's when new. I think the main issue is that the Z's were too popular. There were just so many made that they don't have the scarcity.

Look at the 2000GT. That was originally going to be the 240Z, but was rejected. The designers then eventually sold it to Toyota and it flopped. That, more than anything else is why it is so sought after now, because it is rare. It is a beautiful design, but I think the S30 is even better.

Edited February 18, 2018 by HomeBuiltByJeff

[gav240z]

what's the big deal with the ps30? 5 more kw then the standard L24? really?

Where do I even begin? ?

 

Maybe you'll get an idea of how many differences there were here.

 

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/236658-1969-nissan-s20-twin-cam-engine-rebuild-4.html#/topics/236658

[HS30-H]

Look at the 2000GT. That was originally going to be the 240Z, but was rejected. The designers then eventually sold it to Toyota and it flopped. That, more than anything else is why it is so sought after now, because it is rare. It is a beautiful design, but I think the S30 is even better.

 

First of all, there's so much wrong in the "2000GT was going to be the 240Z, but was rejected" thing that I won't even bother going there (too long a story...), but you're missing a big point about the MF10 Toyota 2000GT and that's the fact that it is a great car. A great car styling wise, and a great car dynamically. Have you ever driven one? I have, and I was amazed by how good it was at being a proper Grand Touring car in the traditional - 1960s - sense. It made, for example, an Aston Martin DB6 feel like I was driving a lorry...

 

The Toyota was a car out of time really. Too early to capture the kind of Japanese buyers who would have the money to buy one (they would be the 'Bubble Economy' young professionals of the late 1980s) and too bespoke in build to make any real sense in the export market. But they were GREAT cars. And I say that as a Nissan fan. 

 

I see your main judgement of the PS30 and PS30-SB is via engine power figures. This completely misses the point. Especially so where the PS30-SB is concerned. 

[HomeBuiltByJeff]

First of all, there's so much wrong in the "2000GT was going to be the 240Z, but was rejected" thing that I won't even bother going there (too long a story...), but you're missing a big point about the MF10 Toyota 2000GT and that's the fact that it is a great car. A great car styling wise, and a great car dynamically. Have you ever driven one? I have, and I was amazed by how good it was at being a proper Grand Touring car in the traditional - 1960s - sense. It made, for example, an Aston Martin DB6 feel like I was driving a lorry...

 

The Toyota was a car out of time really. Too early to capture the kind of Japanese buyers who would have the money to buy one (they would be the 'Bubble Economy' young professionals of the late 1980s) and too bespoke in build to make any real sense in the export market. But they were GREAT cars. And I say that as a Nissan fan. 

 

I see your main judgement of the PS30 and PS30-SB is via engine power figures. This completely misses the point. Especially so where the PS30-SB is concerned. 

I was well and truly oversimplifying of course, but Mrs Jeff covered it in more detail in one of her fun facts. 

 

I am in no way dismissing the 2000GT. It is an amazing and beautiful car, and I would love to drive one. What I am saying, is that for many reasons it did not sell well, and that makes it a rare car today. If they made as many 2000GT's as they did S30's it would probably be similar money to buy either of them today.

 

Many have said similar things, comparing E-types to 60's Ferraris. E-Types are amazing cars, and if they were as rare as Ferrari's they would probably be worth similar money (just look at what you have to pay for a D-Type).

[HS30-H]

I was well and truly oversimplifying of course, but Mrs Jeff covered it in more detail in one of her fun facts.

 

No disrespect intended, but those two projects had nothing to do with each other. No direct connection. Nil. I haven't seen any of the 'fun facts' segments, but if any connection between the Yamaha-produced Nissan project and the Toyota 2000GT was implied - let alone between the Yamaha Nissan project and what became the Nissan S30-series Z - then it's wrong.

 

I know people want to stitch these things together styling-wise, but it's wrong. There's not a single line, a single curve, a single dimension or mechanical detail that directly joins any of the, actually *three*, projects. If they were three-box sedan cars nobody would bother drawing a link, but because they are three two-seater GT cars it's 'no smoke without fire' and all that...  

[260DET]

Yes, a lot of it is about exclusivity or the lack thereof, that's human nature. As I've gone on about before, the S30 is intrinsically a valuable car with it's propensity to rust being the only negative. If any of us sat down to redesign it within the standards of the day I doubt that we would change much at all even in the detail, by the standards of today it's a pretty damn good car too.

[HomeBuiltByJeff]

No disrespect intended, but those two projects had nothing to do with each other. No direct connection. Nil. I haven't seen any of the 'fun facts' segments, but if any connection between the Yamaha-produced Nissan project and the Toyota 2000GT was implied - let alone between the Yamaha Nissan project and what became the Nissan S30-series Z - then it's wrong.

 

I know people want to stitch these things together styling-wise, but it's wrong. There's not a single line, a single curve, a single dimension or mechanical detail that directly joins any of the, actually *three*, projects. If they were three-box sedan cars nobody would bother drawing a link, but because they are three two-seater GT cars it's 'no smoke without fire' and all that...  

I am just repeating what I have read. I don't profess to be an expert. You should move to change Wikipedia.

 

"...Nissan was a relatively small automaker when it entered the international market in the 1960s and partnered with Yamaha to design a new sports car prototype to update the Nissan Fairlady. Nissan executives saw the prototype as a halo car that would improve their company's image in the minds of consumers. By 1964 Nissan realized that Yamaha's DOHC 2.0-liter engine was not meeting Nissan's expectations and the project was scrapped. Yamaha later finished a prototype and took their design to Toyota, resulting in the Toyota 2000GT..."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Z-car

[aircobra]

S30 was definitely designed for mas production - you can see that other then the L24 and the shell shape, its identical to the 510 and the 180b in terms of the basic building block and the component

This specifically includes the L24, which was in all aspects a basic engine, shared with every single nissan of the day

This is why I think the better comparison is the Alfa and the Fiat and not the Lotus/911.

i'm with HS30H in that, once again, if you look at the specs alone ( can't claim that I have driven one), not sure that an out of the box 2000GT would have much of an edge over the 240 with, say, the optional seiko wheels

[aircobra]

why would nissan take on an ex-Toyota Crown block when they had the s20 engine in their pocket?

identical arguement to the 2000GT  engine  - its just too expensive too produce for the price point, otherwise we would all be driving the PS30s right noe

the idea of car manufacturing is to make a profit, not just halo cars

[aircobra]

any way the PS30 vs S30 arguement is an argument within an arguement. clearly more $s because of the scarcity factor.

Still the Z.

[HS30-H]

I am just repeating what I have read. I don't profess to be an expert. You should move to change Wikipedia.

 

"...Nissan was a relatively small automaker when it entered the international market in the 1960s and partnered with Yamaha to design a new sports car prototype to update the Nissan Fairlady. Nissan executives saw the prototype as a halo car that would improve their company's image in the minds of consumers. By 1964 Nissan realized that Yamaha's DOHC 2.0-liter engine was not meeting Nissan's expectations and the project was scrapped. Yamaha later finished a prototype and took their design to Toyota, resulting in the Toyota 2000GT..."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Z-car

 

Some of us have tried making changes to Wikipedia entries, only to see them changed back again soon after. It's a fool's errand.

 

If you're interested - and I would not blame you if you aren't - you could look into it all a little deeper via sources other than Wikipedia. The dumbed-down story above of Yamaha taking their prototype design to Toyota, resulting in the Toyota 2000GT, is easily debunked when you look at what went into the Toyota 2000GT's creation from the points of view of the people concerned. One of the best single sources is the (bloody expensive, but superb) book 'Toyota 2000GT' by Shin Yoshikawa, which makes it clear that the Yamaha-built Nissan A550X was used simply as an example of what Yamaha could do for Toyota. Jiro Kawano of Toyota, the team leader for the project which would become the Toyota 2000GT, already had his own ideas and nothing - absolutely nothing - of the A550X was even considered as being useful for the Toyota project. Great book.

 

Japanese magazines such as Car Graphic, Nostalgic Hero and Old Timer have run many articles over the years which interviewed leading protagonists and put a lot of stories straight. Of course, being in the Japanese language these articles are not as accessible as they would be in English, but nevertheless the truth exists. These are Japanese cars we are talking about here and the long, tall and short of it is that the *best truth* about them comes from the Japanese people involved and in the Japanese language.   

[gav240z]

One of the best single sources is the (bloody expensive, but superb) book 'Toyota 2000GT' by Shin Yoshikawa, which makes it clear that the Yamaha-built Nissan A550X was used simply as an example of what Yamaha could do for Toyota. Jiro Kawano of Toyota, the team leader for the project which would become the Toyota 2000GT, already had his own ideas and nothing - absolutely nothing - of the A550X was even considered as being useful for the Toyota project. Great book.

I keep hoping for a cheap version of the book to show up, but haven't found a copy yet! Last I checked it was $250-$300 USD used..

[gilltech]

Currently there are 12 x 240Zs and 6 x 260Zs listed for sale on Carsales. Those being working driving cars, not projects.

Many more 'project' cars - everything from basically complete but needing work, to rusty piles of scrap metal - are on Gumtree, FB, eBay or whatever.

So this week alone there's a fair number of cars or projects to choose from.

But they will only change hands when a buyer and seller can agree a price based on value for money which is a perception not an absolute.

And that price surely has little to do with what's happening in the Japanese market or the USA market.

[TOO60Z]

As long as the flare sheep continue to hack out their wheelarches and misplace dentist mirrors on the front guards,i'm happy. The next generation won't know what a stock bodied s30 looks like so they will never be in the market to buy.

[gav240z]

I'm glad they are undervalued, it's allowed me to collect 4 of them. I might have to add a few more.

[Cozza]

The market has spoken people. They are worth what people pay for them.

[HS30-H]

So this week alone there's a fair number of cars or projects to choose from.

But they will only change hands when a buyer and seller can agree a price based on value for money which is a perception not an absolute.

And that price surely has little to do with what's happening in the Japanese market or the USA market.

 

Last week yet another Australian 240Z arrived here in the UK (a 1970 built car). Late last year I visited a UK-based business which had no less than three ex-Australian market 240Zs on their premises on that day.

 

If your cars are priced at a level that makes buying and shipping them to other countries financially viable, they WILL get poached from under your noses. THAT is how what is happening in the rest of the world has something to do with your own domestic market.

[Brabham]

If there is another GFC I suspect the values of collector cars might fall again. You can't live in/eat a 240Z.

[gilltech]

Last week yet another Australian 240Z arrived here in the UK (a 1970 built car). Late last year I visited a UK-based business which had no less than three ex-Australian market 240Zs on their premises on that day.

If your cars are priced at a level that makes buying and shipping them to other countries financially viable, they WILL get poached from under your noses. THAT is how what is happening in the rest of the world has something to do with your own domestic market.

Well that may be true to some extent, but remember it works in both directions too - UK S30 Z cars, and those from various markets, get shipped to Australia and NZ. Many times it's due to expats returning home.

My point is that just because prices for S30s are going nuts in Japan, or so I'm led to believe, and climbing in the USA, doesn't mean that they are suddenly worth 'moonbeams' over here. Every market has it's own peculiarities.

Edited February 19, 2018 by gilltech

[gilltech]

The market has spoken people. They are worth what people pay for them.

Exactly. There is such a wide range of different types of hobby or collector cars for people to choose from Down Under. So the S30 or Z or whatever you choose to call it has a lot of competition. Not just other '60s & '70s sports coupes but a very strong base following for domestic Holdens and Fords, and all kinds of muscle cars from the USA, it's very pro-V8 and big-engine-centric down here, in Australia and NZ.

If you go to a Mustang car show in the USA you will likely see a fair spread of 6-cyl cars as well as V8s, because both sold well in the day and both are popular. Whereas in this part of the world there are few 6-cyl Mustangs around, even when 3 1/2 litre they don't rate all that well against a 5L, 6L or 7L V8. It's a different car culture here. Smaller engine cars, and I'm including the Z which is perhaps borderline at 2 1/2L, have to compete with that.

Part of the reason for the culture is historic, bad roads and big distances required big strong cars with decent sized but simple under-stressed engines that didn't require constant maintenance. Many if not most small engined cars such as those imported from the UK or Europe struggled to cope with the conditions outside of the cities. Not too dissimilar in fact to large parts of the USA.

Edited February 19, 2018 by gilltech

[aircobra]

don;t buy that entirely.

if there was a proportion between outright power and value, then E-types would eb $20K US. Plenty of medium power cars eg early maseratis ,,, and of course the skylines and the 2000gt just to complete the scan